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Old 12-20-12, 12:41 PM   #1
HawkOwl
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Respect and Space

This thread is driven by comments in other threads. Maybe what we elders need to do is show more rectitude in our posts? That is if we are really serious. If we, as I suspect some are, just here to stir and entertain then the more obnoxious and inflamatory the better.

Maybe we could start by just reading the posts? Several times responses have been made that show the poster obviously did not read the post they were responding to.

Respect: Everyone here is supposed to be old enough to have life experience. Personally, I have friends from just about every legal political and economic background. We can have some pretty spirited discussions. But, they are held to the ideas and viewpoints not the other person's character. We are careful not to insult someone and if we slip we square it away asap. When all is said and done, they are there for me and I for them.

Space: Ain't nothing short of immediate survival that is worth getting all heated up about. Everyone has needs and wants and has ideas how to get them. But, there are only so many resources to satisfy them. To get along I think I need to give everyone space to have their own ideas and life. (Aside: As i type there is a "Bad Idea T-shirts" ad on the screen. Very distracting) Some of the responses to posts have gone beyond disagreeing with each other to personal. Now I may be wrong because obviously several know each other and I don't. But it seems to me giving everyone space for their own life that probably disagrees with other's choices is a good idea.

Just a couple thoughts.
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Old 12-20-12, 01:10 PM   #2
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Very sage counsel, with which I concur.

Being an inveterate opera-goer, there really is a striking difference between the stories portrayed in the 19th century vs the stories portrayed in popular media today, and it reflects badly on our times. Back in the 19th century, the stories where the protagonist was treated wrongly or unfairly very commonly ended with the protagonist forgiving the perpetrators. A good example is Rossini's Cenerentola (Cinderella). Today, such a story would end with the protagonist exhorting a fitting revenge on the filthy unsubs, usually with the aid of powerful explosives and prohibited assault rifles!

Sometimes it is very difficult to keep one's passions in check when responding on various subjects that may be close to one's heart, but I applaud those with the maturity to exercise restraint; I wish I could maintain such serenity sometimes.

However, just getting older doesn't necessarily confer additional wisdom or insight. When I was growing up in the 1960's, I really disliked old people; their thought processes had seemed to be ossified as they clung to their ways and failed to reconsider their positions on issues. But they were perhaps following their own moral compass, disillusioned with how the world was changing, although some of the changes (civil rights, gender equality) were for the better.

Now that I am getting older (chronologically!), I think I have a responsibility to really work at gaining wisdom. This means examining my own (and others') past experiences and applying their meaning to current contexts in insightful ways. When I was young, it was a real treat to actually meet an older person who had real insights. Now I have to become that older person, but it's not easy! But I think a good place to start is by not being selfish, and letting others express themselves. OK, that's it, sorry for rambling!

Luis
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Old 12-20-12, 02:40 PM   #3
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If we were indeed sitting around a campfire together, or at a cafe booth talking, we'd be more civil.

Reflecting on our history, though, if this were the Western frontier of the 1850s and we were discussing things around a campfire, there'd be gunfire occasionally.

I like the idea of trying to answer three questions: "is it helpful?" "is it necessary?" and "is it truthful?"
If one can answer these three in the affirmative, and steer clear from false piety and toward humility, then one usually won't go wrong...

There is a TON of wisdom and experience on this forum, BTW.

Last edited by Phil_gretz; 12-20-12 at 02:41 PM. Reason: the definition of "is"
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Old 12-20-12, 02:49 PM   #4
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When it comes to rectitude, I try to keep my butt covered at all times! (Bad puns are the best!)

I do have to say, this section of the forum, forums, and the internet in general, is fairly mild and polite, with folks pulling back and moderating their tone, when things get too heated. Elsewhere, these arguments turn into double/triple digit free-for-alls with much heat, and little light.

I guess being old, we just get tired too quick to maintain an angry thread, or we get distracted by those pesky kids on our lawn again! I'd like to think we've gotten wiser with age, but I look at my past week, and I know that's not the case for me at least! I'm having all too many of those "hereafter" moments, where I walk into a room, and wonder what in the world I was here after!
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Old 12-20-12, 03:00 PM   #5
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Good thread,,Let me be the first to step up and say,,I need to do better in this area XD

"is it helpful?" "is it necessary?" and "is it truthful?"

I don't lie In here and I always speak my mind but still I often need to think a second longer before my fingers start tapping XD
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Old 12-20-12, 03:03 PM   #6
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This forum is the height of civility compared to the decorating forum my wife sometimes posts to. Those people (some of them) are out to injure and defame anyone who does not adhere to their particular aesthetic directions. God help the poster who does not sing the praises and implement the buzzwords of their decorating religion. This place is benign and peaceful by comparison.
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Old 12-20-12, 03:49 PM   #7
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Phil's comments ring true imo.

I really try to word my comments as if we're all face to face (in part, due to working many years in direct contact with the public (i.e. paying customers). If I'm wrong, I'll usually admit it. If not, I often just "let it go" after I've attempted to make my point once or twice.

It's also probably a good idea for us to "sit on our comments for a day" when we attempt to engage in a thread that has gone "edgy" for some reason or another. The funny thing is that I rarely, if ever, post heated comments after they've cooled off for about a day or so.

And ya, there are countless other forums, of all topics, that are contaminated with trolls that get their "kicks" out of rubbing everyone the wrong way. The Bike Forums is great place to avoid such nonsense.

Besides, at age 50+, I no longer have the time and energy to "engage" with people who argue and/or make spiteful comments for no other reason than to be combative and/or ugly.
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Old 12-20-12, 05:34 PM   #8
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I can't even begin to count the number of posts I have typed on this and other forums only to decide not to click on "submit reply".

For the most part, this sub forum on BF is pretty darn tame.....I like that.
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Old 12-20-12, 06:23 PM   #9
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Very good post and timely topic Hawk Owl, the replies, so far, are my same thoughts. I think that the suggestion about stopping and thinking before replying in haste and anger is the best advise I could ever have and to give to someone. As Con said I too have hit cancel many times or gone back and deleted a reply after thinking about what I had typed. Words are easier to eat if you have not said or shown them to anyone.

Phil has the biggest part down pat, we are not face to face when we are posting and Internet bravado tends to take over the brain functions. I have had the pleasure of sharing a meal and several hours of conversation with Rowan and Machka, being face to face is much better for civil conversation than the web will ever be. I truly hope I can ride and have fellowship with many more 50+/BF members in the coming time, sharing a common interest gives us something to enjoy and to share.

As some have said here, the knowledge available here is vast and valuable if you would listen carefully and take things with a grain of salt. The 50+ members are a great group in the large part, they have been supportive of me totally and I thank everyone for this. And I agree with the thought that at 50+ we are too experienced in life and should be mature enough to not stir things up with others.

I hope this thread gets to stay open, it is overdue. Merry Christmas to everyone.

Bill
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Old 12-20-12, 06:39 PM   #10
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I always think of this forum as pretty benign.
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Old 12-20-12, 07:23 PM   #11
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In another thread someone raised the question if the semi-hostile debate could harm cycling?

I think the disrespect could: If we do not respect each other, is it reasonable to expect the respect of non-cyclists?

For example: A case of two local LBS's: One respects and encourages ALL forms and types of riding and riders, the other shows contempt for any who are not interested in the highest level of components and racing...
... Which is better for cycling? Which is more likely to discourage a new cyclist?
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Old 12-20-12, 09:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
Maybe we could start by just reading the posts? Several times responses have been made that show the poster obviously did not read the post they were responding to.
I haven't noticed it so much here, but at another more technical forum, after a lot of years of reading, it becomes obvious that some of the posters just read the topic title and then hit the reply button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
give everyone space to have their own ideas and life.
My favorite speaker mentioned one time that most people just want a little elbow room. I liked that way of putting it too.

I actually learned a nice lesson in diplomacy one time on a forum. They can be nice places too.
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Old 12-21-12, 12:27 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sculptor7 View Post
This forum is the height of civility compared to the decorating forum my wife sometimes posts to. Those people (some of them) are out to injure and defame anyone who does not adhere to their particular aesthetic directions. God help the poster who does not sing the praises and implement the buzzwords of their decorating religion. This place is benign and peaceful by comparison.
Oh so true,

I left another unnamed forum for cyberbully B.S.,,, the exact thing you speak of.

I use the same user name everywhere or a variant that that particular forum will allow, I hide from no one and get this......

8 months after I left that forum one of the drama delinquits found me on another that I had been on for a few years and
Immediatly attacked me In such a way that the moderators banned him pronto.

All because I did not worship the territorial jerks who needed the forum to feel superior,,,sad.
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Old 12-21-12, 04:38 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Phil_gretz View Post
If we were indeed sitting around a campfire together, or at a cafe booth talking, we'd be more civil.
I do not think so.


Really I think some are too sensitive and feel slighted, when none was intended.
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Old 12-21-12, 04:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
For example: A case of two local LBS's: One respects and encourages ALL forms and types of riding and riders, the other shows contempt for any who are not interested in the highest level of components and racing...
... Which is better for cycling? Which is more likely to discourage a new cyclist?
No real harm done. One LBS either changes their ways or goes out of business. The other LBS always did well.
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Old 12-21-12, 08:08 AM   #16
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No real harm done. One LBS either changes their ways or goes out of business. The other LBS always did well.
I can only really only speak for myself:

I was fortunate to first walk into the LBS who respected me and my equipment (which was a 20 year old donation) and worked with me to get it operational. They then mentored and couched me on what I needed as I became increasingly dedicated and interested in cycling. Since then I have spent upwards of $3,000 there...

If I had entered the one who only respected and supported the hard core racers, I probably would not be cycling today.

BTW: Both LBS's are doing well. Neither is going out of business.

But, one helps and encourages people to enter and progress in the sport at their own level and at their own pace. The other discourages them through lack of respect and support. Or worse, by pushing them into stuff they neither need nor want. I have in mind one guy who regularly pedals up one of the longest, steepest hills in the area to get home -- and the LBS pushed him into switching to a single ring up front. He's not a racer, he just wants to get home!
... And the same could be said for SOME of the posters on SOME of the threads in this forum: little tolerance and little respect for others who do not share their opinions and cycling style.
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Old 12-22-12, 03:57 PM   #17
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Lighten Up Francis
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Old 12-22-12, 04:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_gretz View Post
If we were indeed sitting around a campfire together, or at a cafe booth talking, we'd be more civil.

Reflecting on our history, though, if this were the Western frontier of the 1850s and we were discussing things around a campfire, there'd be gunfire occasionally.

I like the idea of trying to answer three questions: "is it helpful?" "is it necessary?" and "is it truthful?"
If one can answer these three in the affirmative, and steer clear from false piety and toward humility, then one usually won't go wrong...

There is a TON of wisdom and experience on this forum, BTW.
How about

"Is it entertaining"

"Is it humorous"

"Is it light and enjoyable?"

To me, these are really critical aspects
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Old 12-23-12, 08:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
I can only really only speak for myself:

I was fortunate to first walk into the LBS who respected me and my equipment (which was a 20 year old donation) and worked with me to get it operational. They then mentored and couched me on what I needed as I became increasingly dedicated and interested in cycling. Since then I have spent upwards of $3,000 there...

If I had entered the one who only respected and supported the hard core racers, I probably would not be cycling today.

BTW: Both LBS's are doing well. Neither is going out of business.

But, one helps and encourages people to enter and progress in the sport at their own level and at their own pace. The other discourages them through lack of respect and support. Or worse, by pushing them into stuff they neither need nor want. I have in mind one guy who regularly pedals up one of the longest, steepest hills in the area to get home -- and the LBS pushed him into switching to a single ring up front. He's not a racer, he just wants to get home!
... And the same could be said for SOME of the posters on SOME of the threads in this forum: little tolerance and little respect for others who do not share their opinions and cycling style.
For me, 50+ covers both the rider and two of his five bicycles. I happily use toeclips and friction shifters, ride bicycles which fit my size and my needs perfectly, and visit the LBS for parts or accessories. With many local shops from which to choose, I gravitate toward those where my vintage equipment gets at least friendly acknowledgment, if not respect, and avoid the local racer shop where I tend to be ignored. My new favorite shop, RIDE in downtown Encinitas, is run by a young couple with an infant son -- they cater to a broad spectrum of cyclists, including beginners and semi-pros, and do not try to push anyone into anything.
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Old 12-23-12, 08:31 AM   #20
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Les vieillards aiment à donner de bons préceptes pour se consoler de n'être plus en état de donner de mauvais exemples. —François de La Rochefoucauld (1613 - 1680)
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Old 12-23-12, 12:00 PM   #21
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Les vieillards aiment à donner de bons préceptes pour se consoler de n'être plus en état de donner de mauvais exemples. —François de La Rochefoucauld (1613 - 1680)
Yeah, what he said! ... Wait, what DID he say?
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Old 12-23-12, 04:58 PM   #22
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Yeah, what he said! ... Wait, what DID he say?
I think he said, "Them old coots can dish it out but they can't take it".
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Old 12-23-12, 07:24 PM   #23
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Les vieillards aiment à donner de bons préceptes pour se consoler de n'être plus en état de donner de mauvais exemples. —François de La Rochefoucauld (1613 - 1680)
Or maybe, this could be paraphrased: good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.
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Old 12-23-12, 08:27 PM   #24
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Sigh. At my age, and I'm still accruing lots of "experience"...

Hurray for Google Translate: "Old men love to give good teachings to console themselves for being no longer in a position to give bad examples."

That's actually kind of depressing... wait... this must mean... I'm not OLD yet! Hurray!!!

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