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  1. #1
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    5th Annual 50+ ride and conference?

    What's the current thinking on where and when we will hold the event et cetera?

  2. #2
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    There has been interest in having an event in the Dodgeville-Blue Mound area of Wisconsin. Billydonn met me there for a ride in October, see: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ght=Dodgeville

    The area offer scenic, safe and challenging riding. The nearby town of Mineral Point offers arts & crafts shopping for non-cycling spouses. Fine dining and a variety of hotels and B&B are available.















    Last edited by Barrettscv; 12-26-12 at 08:05 AM.
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    Senior Member John_V's Avatar
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    That would be perfect for me. My father in law lives in NW Illinois and it looks as if Dodgeville is around an hours drive from him, if not less. Some pretty good hill country in that area, not sure if this flatlander will be much good up there. If the ride is going to be in the WI, IL area, there is a rail trail that runs from Savanna, IL to Moline, IL and has both flatlands and hills. The trail is about 60-70 miles in length and runs along the Mississippi river and SR 84 for most of it's length. I rode it this year and it was a really good ride as some areas of the trial involved riding some back roads.
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    Senior Member irwin7638's Avatar
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    Jim from Boston is trying to nail down a date for a ride there. Late July or early August is the time frame there, Wisconsin sounds like fun to me also, I just have to paddle across the lake. Like Road Fan said, it is important to nail down a date so people can make plans.

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  5. #5
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
    There has been interest in having an event in the Dodgeville-Blue Mound area of Wisconsin. Billydonn met me there for a ride in October, see: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ght=Dodgeville

    The area offer scenic, safe and challenging riding. The nearby town of Mineral Point offers arts & crafts shopping for non-cycling spouses. Fine dining and a variety of hotels and B&B are available.
    That would be a "go" for me in July but probably not August. If the planets align I might even be able to bring the always charming Mrs. Grouch and the Kettweisel train.

  6. #6
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_V View Post
    That would be perfect for me. My father in law lives in NW Illinois and it looks as if Dodgeville is around an hours drive from him, if not less. Some pretty good hill country in that area, not sure if this flatlander will be much good up there. If the ride is going to be in the WI, IL area, there is a rail trail that runs from Savanna, IL to Moline, IL and has both flatlands and hills. The trail is about 60-70 miles in length and runs along the Mississippi river and SR 84 for most of it's length. I rode it this year and it was a really good ride as some areas of the trial involved riding some back roads.
    I was considering how to plan routes without some of the very steep-but-short hills in the area. It would be possible to have two morning routes and two afternoon routes. One of the morning and one of the afternoon routes could travel flatter roads for shorter distances. An alternate steeper and longer morning and afternoon route would also be planned. We would all gather for lunch and dinner regardless as to what route was selected. Riders could mix routes, trying the steep route in the morning and taking an easier route in the afternoon, if they wanted.
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  7. #7
    Council of the Elders billydonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
    I was considering how to plan routes without some of the very steep-but-short hills in the area. It would be possible to have two morning routes and two afternoon routes. One of the morning and one of the afternoon routes could travel flatter roads for shorter distances. An alternate steeper and longer morning and afternoon route would also be planned. We would all gather for lunch and dinner regardless as to what route was selected. Riders could mix routes, trying the steep route in the morning and taking an easier route in the afternoon, if they wanted.
    Michael,
    Don"t forget the rail trail to Madison from Dville. That should be flat enough for most folks. How about two rides: Wisconsin in May or June and Boston in August?

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  8. #8
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billydonn View Post
    Michael,
    Don"t forget the rail trail to Madison from Dville. That should be flat enough for most folks. How about two rides: Wisconsin in May or June and Boston in August?
    That timeframe would work for me.

    I will carefully set some moderate bike routes in the area. I'll offer a 8% maximum slope route, but I could set a mostly flat route if needed. The more advanced routes will feature a few 15% plus hills. All of these hills are short 5 to 10 minute climbs followed by flat or downhill sections that provide 20 minutes of recovery.
    Last edited by Barrettscv; 12-26-12 at 11:12 AM.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member John_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
    I was considering how to plan routes without some of the very steep-but-short hills in the area. It would be possible to have two morning routes and two afternoon routes. One of the morning and one of the afternoon routes could travel flatter roads for shorter distances. An alternate steeper and longer morning and afternoon route would also be planned. We would all gather for lunch and dinner regardless as to what route was selected. Riders could mix routes, trying the steep route in the morning and taking an easier route in the afternoon, if they wanted.
    When I was up there with my bike, in June, I rode to Wiconsin via the Elizabeth - Scales Mound Road, and ended up in Schullsburg, WI. It wasn't bad until I got closer to Scales Mound. The ride from there to Schullsburg wasn't pretty, but I made it. I ended up riding the Savanna to Moline Trail the rest of the time there, even if it meant traveling the 20 miles from Elizabeth to Savanna every day.
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  10. #10
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    We will stay between Dodgeville and Blue Mounds. I promise very safe low-traffic roads and pleasant rolling-countryside scenery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by irwin7638 View Post
    Jim from Boston is trying to nail down a date for a ride there. Late July or early August is the time frame there, Wisconsin sounds like fun to me also, I just have to paddle across the lake. Like Road Fan said, it is important to nail down a date so people can make plans.

    Marc
    Logistics has kept me out of the previous rides. But might be able to link a late August ride in Wisconsin with other things in IL and IN.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Jim from Boston's Avatar
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    [
    Quote Originally Posted by qcpmsame View Post
    ... What happened to Boston?

    Quote Originally Posted by irwin7638 View Post
    Jim from Boston is trying to nail down a date for a ride there. Late July or early August is the time frame there, ... Like Road Fan said, it is important to nail down a date so people can make plans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
    ... I'm glad to see Boston is still under consideration. Here’s some of the basic logistics:

    THE RIDE:
    This will be the fourth annual ride sponsored by a cycling advocacy group, MASS BIKE (presumably they will organize it for 2013). This year, the date was not announced until May or June for the ride on July 28, and usually it is aekend in July....

    As they describe it: “All rides (8, 26, 47, 62 and 100 miles) will traverse the heart of American Revolutionary history, from Paul Revere’s Ride through Lexington and Concord, to nearby battlefields. Longer rides visit the towns and villages that sent the first Minutemen. After the rides, everyone is invited to stay at Lexington High School for lunch and socializing. Lunch will be provided by Redbones! [A local, well-regarded BBQ joint that’s bike-friendly—they even have valet bike-parking. ] The terrain, IMO, is gently rolling hills.
    For details, see: !http://massbike.org/summer-century-family-ride/...
    I'm still very eager about a Boston ride and there seemed to be a lot of interest in one during the last go-round on the Official Fifth Annual Ride thread. I just read this current thread today (Christmas day + 1) and called the MassBike office with only a voicemail reply. I realize the necessity of pinnning down a date as early as possible. I've been meaning to join Mass Bike as a advocacy group, so I will and see if I can agitate for an early determination of the date. After all, I too need to request the time off.

    Location, location, location is obviously a key factor for an Annual Ride. I have driven up to 800 miles one-way for the Third Annual in Michigan, but that included a visit to family there. With regards to the suggested Wisconsin ride, this sounds like an ad hoc ride, i.e, not as a under the auspices of an organized cycling club. Annual Rides # 2, 3, and 4 were in conjunction with an organized club ride. The usual number of Fifty-Plus subscribers that showed up has been about 10 to 15 at most. I imagine that the riders are of different abillities, so they might string out over such a course, making for some solo rides. Of course the pre- and post-ride activities are probably as strong, if not more so, a draw to travel a long distance to meet fellow 50+ BF'ers. Nonetheless, riding with a large contingent adds to the safety factors, and personally I met some local riders on the Second and Third Annual Rides with whom I connected.

    Just sayin'.

  13. #13
    Council of the Elders billydonn's Avatar
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    Speaking for myself, I don't see anything wrong with having more than one option for a group get together. Different logistics and timing might mean that people who can't make one can go to the other.

    I'm not sure what sort of "conference" arrangements Michael has in mind though. Will there be an agenda, with presentations and stuff? Corporate sponsors? Who will be our keynote speaker? (Just kidding Michael)

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  14. #14
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billydonn View Post
    Speaking for myself, I don't see anything wrong with having more than one option for a group get together. Different logistics and timing might mean that people who can't make one can go to the other.

    I'm not sure what sort of "conference" arrangements Michael has in mind though. Will there be an agenda, with presentations and stuff? Corporate sponsors? Who will be our keynote speaker? (Just kidding Michael)
    No conference planned. The agenda only includes exercise, fresh air and good meals :-)

    I'll post a preliminary outline for a two day event starting with a mid-morning ride on Saturday at 10:00am, Lunch at the Pleasant Ridge Country store followed by an afternoon ride and dinner. Sunday will include a set of rides, including the Military Ridge trail near Blue Mounds and lunch.

    I'll post a few options as to what weekend in May or June is best. I might invite the C&V crowd, too. We all can vote and discuss what weekend is best.

    I'll start the thread after New Years when the traffic here increases.
    Last edited by Barrettscv; 12-27-12 at 04:15 PM.
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  15. #15
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    Here are a few sample route;

    Saturday morning, Dodgeville to lunch at Pleasent Ridge. 11 miles with 500 ft of climbing or 15.5 miles with 800 ft of climbing: http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/161944936

    Saturday after lunch, Return to Dodgeville. 14 miles with 500 ft of climbing: http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/161948724

    Alternative Saturday after lunch, Return to Dodgeville. 45 miles with 2260 ft of climbing: http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/161950064

    Sunday Morning Loop from Blue Mounds. 21 miles with 900 ft of climbing: http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/161951432

    Alternative Sunday Morning Loop: 41 miles with 2500 ft of climbing: http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/161955976
    Last edited by Barrettscv; 12-28-12 at 07:23 PM.
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  16. #16
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
    No conference planned. The agenda only includes exercise, fresh air and good meals :-)

    I'll post a preliminary outline for a two day event starting with a mid-morning ride on Saturday at 10:00am, Lunch at the Pleasant Ridge Country store followed by an afternoon ride and dinner. Sunday will include a set of rides, including the Military Ridge trail near Blue Mounds and lunch.

    I'll post a few options as to what weekend in May or June is best. I might invite the C&V crowd, too. We all can vote and discuss what weekend is best.

    I'll start the thread after New Years when the traffic here increases.
    I think I first put out a thread referring to it as a "conference," making the joke on impulse, since planning this thing seems exactly like setting up a conference, or "Voice of the Customer" workshop.

    Those who saw through my clever ruse are to be commended for their sagacity.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
    [

    I'm still very eager about a Boston ride and there seemed to be a lot of interest in one during the last go-round on the Official Fifth Annual Ride thread. I just read this current thread today (Christmas day + 1) and called the MassBike office with only a voicemail reply. I realize the necessity of pinnning down a date as early as possible. I've been meaning to join Mass Bike as a advocacy group, so I will and see if I can agitate for an early determination of the date. After all, I too need to request the time off.

    Location, location, location is obviously a key factor for an Annual Ride. I have driven up to 800 miles one-way for the Third Annual in Michigan, but that included a visit to family there. With regards to the suggested Wisconsin ride, this sounds like an ad hoc ride, i.e, not as a under the auspices of an organized cycling club. Annual Rides # 2, 3, and 4 were in conjunction with an organized club ride. The usual number of Fifty-Plus subscribers that showed up has been about 10 to 15 at most. I imagine that the riders are of different abillities, so they might string out over such a course, making for some solo rides. Of course the pre- and post-ride activities are probably as strong, if not more so, a draw to travel a long distance to meet fellow 50+ BF'ers. Nonetheless, riding with a large contingent adds to the safety factors, and personally I met some local riders on the Second and Third Annual Rides with whom I connected.

    Just sayin'.
    Jim, are you concerned about it not being an organized ride? I think the main benefits offerred by the Ann Arbor Bicycle Touring Society were good route and food communication, presence of a responsive SAG crew, and a good sweep up. Not to mention coordination with local law enforcement and other public services regarding the 1700+ cyclists about to swarm the roads! Plus the course marking was superbe, you really didn't need the map.

    I think we could print out our own maps, decide on a protocol for captained riding for those who want it, appoint a sweeper or laterne rouge, and identify food/bathroom stops where they are known.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Jim from Boston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
    Jim, are you concerned about it not being an organized ride? I think the main benefits offerred by the Ann Arbor Bicycle Touring Society were good route and food communication, presence of a responsive SAG crew, and a good sweep up. Not to mention coordination with local law enforcement and other public services regarding the 1700+ cyclists about to swarm the roads! Plus the course marking was superbe, you really didn't need the map.

    I think we could print out our own maps, decide on a protocol for captained riding for those who want it, appoint a sweeper or laterne rouge, and identify food/bathroom stops where they are known.
    As I posted, "Just sayin." Since I had the pleasure of riding in two Annual Rides, the organized ride was a major focus, as it seemed to be on the Fourth Annual Ride, which I did not attend. In particular the Second Ride was a rousing success as part of a totally organized weekend provided by the Southern (New York) Tier Club, that included accomodations and meals.

    Not to be a Captain Bringdown, but I have previously mentioned liability issues in organizing a ride. I know it was very generous of you, Road Fan, to organize a Friday Ride for the Third Annual Ride in Michigan, and I was comfortable, and enjoyed routes I hadn't ridden in years. The Second Annual Ride actually had several rides organized for Friday to Sunday.

    Quote Originally Posted by billydonn View Post
    Speaking for myself, I don't see anything wrong with having more than one option for a group get together. Different logistics and timing might mean that people who can't make one can go to the other.

    I'm not sure what sort of "conference" arrangements Michael has in mind though. Will there be an agenda, with presentations and stuff? Corporate sponsors? Who will be our keynote speaker? (Just kidding Michael)
    1+. Though more than one “Annual Ride” has not occurred in the past four years, it makes perfect sense, since the Fifty-Plus Forum is nation-wide. For Annual Rides II to IV, it the was self-imposed task of the organizer to set an agenda, but not organize the ride, which is my proposal for Boston in 2013.

    BTW, today I joined our local sponsoring organization, Mass Bike, at a Sponsorship level. I called the office, but they are still closed for the Holidays. So I can't pinpoint an exact date, but now as a member I can agitate for an early-decided date.

    Happy New Year to this Forum, and I'm sure some Ride will materialize in 20i3 among this “herd of cats.”

  19. #19
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Jim, let's again discuss the liability question. What liability issues are you specifically worried about? I thought we settled this rather thoroughly when planning the 3rd one. But I won't assume the concerns we resolved then are the concerns we would find now.

    I understand you're "just sayin'" but please in that case, just say it without being elliptical.

  20. #20
    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
    There has been interest in having an event in the Dodgeville-Blue Mound area of Wisconsin. Billydonn met me there for a ride in October, see: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ght=Dodgeville

    The area offer scenic, safe and challenging riding. The nearby town of Mineral Point offers arts & crafts shopping for non-cycling spouses. Fine dining and a variety of hotels and B&B are available.















    Cool pics, BTW.

    Don't know nuthin' 'bout liability issues. When club cyclists here want to go on an unapproved ride they call it a "Show and Go". No cue sheets, no ride captains, ride at your risk and such.

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    Liability? What liability? As I posted, I've missed the past rides because the logistics just didn't work for me. So I may not understand all the factors. That said, I can't see anyone having any extra liability. When I travel and make prior arrangements to ride with someone none of us have any addditional liability. So, why should these rides have any?

    Some things I've thought of:
    Club Liability because it is being organized with a group from an internet site. If so that would be liability on the part of Internet Brands, the people who own this site, not the individual riders. Even then, they are not sponsoring or sanctioning the rides so I can't see any there. Some may be getting confused as to what "member" means when applied to this site.
    Personal Liability on the part of the people doing the dog work. If I understand correctly all thoe people are doing is setting up a times and places for the rides. Don't think that qualifies for any additional liability over usual personal libility.

    Of course, I could be wrong, perish the thought.
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    I don't know what was discussed at the first ride. But, barring some knowledgeable attorney giving a written opinion to the contrary, I am confident no particpant in the ride discussed here has any more or less personal liability than if they just join with a local bunch of riders for a casual ride. I am also confident that if some individual is the cause of an injury or significant property loss they will be sued regardless of any insurance.

    Who, by name is the "insured". Is it some organized and chartered group? Or,?

    As for "BFN" liability I don't know what "BFN" is. If it is Bike Forums then you are assuming they are somehow sponsoring or supporting the ride. I don't get that sense from the conversations on this web site. If they do have a potential liability I think they would take a more active role in the ride's organization and execution.

    In short, from what I know, again barring better information from someone who is a professional in the field, liability for something like this is a personal matter and can not be avoided. If the people who use this web site choose to affiliate with a formal group they may gain something, but avoiding responsibility isn't one of them.
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Jim from Boston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
    Jim, let's again discuss the liability question. What liability issues are you specifically worried about? I thought we settled this rather thoroughly when planning the 3rd one. But I won't assume the concerns we resolved then are the concerns we would find now.

    I understand you're "just sayin'" but please in that case, just say it without being elliptical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    …Don't know nuthin' 'bout liability issues. When club cyclists here want to go on an unapproved ride they call it a "Show and Go". No cue sheets, no ride captains, ride at your risk and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Liability? What liability? … I can't see anyone having any extra liability. When I travel and make prior arrangements to ride with someone none of us have any addditional liability. So, why should these rides have any?

    Some things I've thought of: …
    Personal Liability on the part of the people doing the dog work. If I understand correctly all thoe people are doing is setting up a times and places for the rides. Don't think that qualifies for any additional liability over usual personal libility.

    Of course, I could be wrong, perish the thought.
    Hi Road Fan et al,

    I don't want to sound “elliptical,” discouraging, or even sinister when discussing liability issues. When you lead an informal Friday afternoon ride for the Third Annual 50-Plus ride I eagerly attended it without concern, and I was familiar with the route from years ago. That ride was a step beyond a “Show and Go” ride insofar as the route was determined ahead of time.

    On the “Official Thread for the 50+ 5th Annual Ride,” I brought up the liability issue and referred to this thread on another forum, “Personal Liabilities Leading Local Rides? I did not participate in that thread, but here are a few selected quotes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony N. View Post
    I see a number of suggestions here on BF to offer to lead a group ride that meets your riding style. While I agree that sounds like an excellant idea to meet your/my needs, I just read an article about the legal ramifications of how you present the info. to potential riders in the event of an accident. I don't have the mag article but think it was in the latest Bicycle Times. As I remember it, if you offer to lead a (pick a night) ride then you are incurring some liability as this would be an "organized ride". But to say I will be riding (pick a night) ride and you are welcome to join does not infer an organized ride…
    Quote Originally Posted by youcoming View Post
    I say if you swing your leg over a bike you must be willing to take a risk. If you go down in a group than so be it but there will always be some snivelling snot out there who will have to lay blame so they can be compensated! Cycling is not a sport for the risk adverse…
    Quote Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
    I can see one possibly getting sued in the event of an injury occurring on a ride one has orgaized and offered to lead. Whether it would result in a finding of liability is not the sole issue. The pain and expense of defending such a suit has to be considered…
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny99 View Post
    Some kind of vague information from Bicycling Magazine: http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...arless-leader/
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony N. View Post
    Thanks for all replies. Just wanted to let my BF friends to know this is something to think about. I guess that you should be sure to define your role as a co-participant but if you offer advice or pick the route, you may be considered a road captain or coach and should be insured against liability. Wonder if a or homeowners policy would cover us? But some may not own a home or car… Sad to bring this up but in the US ignorance of the law does not limit liability. We need to be in the know and I knew BF peeps are knowledgeable and love to share.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    And if someone in a group is not a designated leader, then the likely outcome is that everyone in the group might be targeted in the lawsuit.

    You think you might be able to hide behind numbers on this, but you can't. Why do you think there are usually multiple respondents in lawsuits seeking damages for accidents?

    Having a waiver may mitigate the responsibility of the organiser by setting out clearly that the participant was aware that risk existed in the ride. The question in an accident situation arises at to whether the risk that caused the accident was foreseeable by the organisers and adequate steps were taken to avoid that risk.
    I don't think I can get any more explicit than described above. I personally would freely and gladly participate in an ad hoc ride offered to this Forum if it were close and appealing enough. But realize that a life-changing injury can also change a victim’s mind. I could offer to organize very many rides here in Boston on my own, and set an exact date, but rather:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
    … So my offer is something like this: “Hey guys, I’m signing up for a great organized ride in my town; anyone else want to sign up too? How about meeting up before, and afterwards?” [a Show and Go?]…
    Lest you think I’m a total paranoid, I offer walking tours of downtown Boston for colleagues from all over the world attending conferences here, and crossing the streets in Boston can also be a risky business. One attendee from Australia kept stepping into traffic because he was used to looking for drivers on the left side of the road.

    Finally, the First Annual Ride, as I understand, was a similar offer of an ad hoc ride in Colorado organized by DnvrFox. I recall reading about some disagreements from that Ride. Perhaps he could comment more knowledgeably than me. He also wrote to the current Official Thread of the Fifth Annual Ride:

    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    One of the precepts of the first annual ride was to have options for all levels of riders, from spouses who barely ride to choices for the advanced rider. I don't know if this is still a concept worth keeping, but it is certainly worth discussing.
    That seems like a tall order for a single individual to organize for a week-end ride inviting members from hundreds of miles away, mostly only known on-line.

    [Note: This post was written before reading Bill’s and HawkOwl’s posts, #’s 22 and 23 above.]

  24. #24
    Have bike, will travel Barrettscv's Avatar
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    I think all this discussion of liability is going to shrink or kill these events. I'm checking on liability on my own, and will have a viable plan that meets basic requirements.

    If we could return to enjoying cycling and the friendships that result from these events.
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  25. #25
    Council of the Elders billydonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
    I think all this discussion of liability is going to shrink or kill these events. I'm checking on liability on my own, and will have a viable plan that meets basic requirements.

    If we could return to enjoying cycling and the friendships that result from these events.
    I agree. IMO it's just some folks getting together to ride bikes in public places. No fee is being paid for a product or service so who could be liable? Liability schmiability.

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