TromboneAl

There's an anecdote in the book Body by Science that illustrates that our concept of "cardiovascular fitness" may be flawed. That is, it suggests that running may make you a better runner (or spinning may make you a better spinner), but it doesn't improve your CV fitness in a general sense. I know I've seen that running doesn't improve my cycling much and vice versa, which suggest they aren't improving my CV fitness in general.

Anyway, the anecdote is that a company has an annual fitness test involving riding a stationary bike. There's a group of runners in the company who run together every day. There's also an out-of-shape couch potato. The potato is worried about the test, and for the month preceding it, he essentially duplicates the test on the stationary bike.

The couch potato passes the test, and the runners fail it.

Have any of you found that a winter program of, perhaps running, swimming, rowing, and/or spinning can get you ready to jump on the bike in the spring and be near the top of your form?

stapfam

TromboneAl has bought up a point that I can see sense in. Cycling does keep or make you fit--but only for cycling. Same as running will make you fit---For running. I have a knee problem that is not affected by cycling and is one of the reasons I took up the sport. I can and do get myself fit enough to do long hilly rides and it is done by cycling. Cycling requires fitness and technique and that has to be worked at. But how about the rest of the body?

For the last year I have had a niggling back problem. It has been getting worse over the last 6 months and was at the stage that I woke up with back pain that took a couple of hours to ease off. I have only done 4 Gym sessions over the past two weeks and today realised that I no longer have back pain. The bit of gentle exercise that has involved the back has eased it. The knee is still being eased through the Gym work but tonight and there is no pain that I normally feel after a longish ride.

So the gym is doing some good. The variety of exercise that the gym gives me is improving mobility- building strength back into the body where it was lacking and not detracting from the base fitness I need for cycling. Whether I will be saying that tomorrow when I find muscles I never knew I had will be another matter.

GeorgeBMac

That pretty much guarantees a good cardio workout if they're anything like the little guy I take care of. Actually, he's one of the reasons I took up cycling -- I wanted to get in shape so I could hang with him...

One of our favorite games is: "On your march, Get Ready, Get Ssse... -- Hey you cheater! Get back here! Wait for me!"

A few of those games and I'm about done...
... But no matter what kind of shape I'm in, I suspect he will always win. (Besides: he cheats!)

GeorgeBMac

Something just doesn't sound right about that...

True, when you are cycling you are building the muscles you use when cycling and, when running you build the muscles you use while running -- and so on...

But all forms of aerobic exercise also strengthen the muscles of cardio - vascular - pulmonary systems...

Plus aerobic exercise also stimulates various chemicals such as BDNF, IGF and so on that have additional physiologic benefits.

... But there is also more to being "fit' than cardio-vascular-pulmonary fitness...
...... If ya ain't strong enough to lift the piece of pie to your mouth, what good is it I ask ya?

digibud

funny...several of our instructors do not ride. Period. In fact none of them are serious cyclists. For them it's totally a workout thing and they do vary in their approach. One does some very good HIT training that is super good and when I want to do something harder I just do it. I wear a hrm and follow their lead only insofar as I want and happily that's exactly what they recommend we do. No problem.

Artmo 

+1 I've done a couple and the first one just about did me in. After all that standing pedaling I could hardly stand up afterwards. The second time was better, but I haven't been since. All those hard bodies around excited me too much!

Artmo 

Stapfam - far be it for me to tell you what to do in retirement, but it seems to me you have too many "chores" which limit your ability to enjoy it. Time to relax and smell the roses

stapfam

Have to agree-but with a proviso. The weather. All of my chores are outside and that is Garden and house maintenance and of course the enjoyment of cycling. Can't do much of that when the it is raining . Rain would not be a problem but enough rain to flood the garden is. The number of days last year when I could do those chores far outweighed the number when I couldn't. So the idea of the Gym is that I CAN do something useful without 4 changes of clothing a day.

But spinning classes--They are hard work and I do know I have had a workout by the end. There is no way I would put that much effort into cycling for 30 minutes let alone an hour and If I wanted to work that hard- I would be doing the 25 mile TT's with the local club. Not my favourite form of masochism. Give me a Metric on the road in 4 hours and I would be happier.

FrenchFit 

Spin Heaven: Class taught by a triathlete, distance rider. Good interval training, climbing simulations, and back to back classes so you could spin for a few hours. Excellent training, and the instructor encouraged the class to do your own thing if you wanted to work on a specific challenge or chill some base miles. (Note: Class drew event riders, CAT racers, lots of discussion about ride tactics.)

Spin Hell: Class taught by a "spin instructor". Lots of yelling, stupid jumps and hovering, and complete lack of awareness about the cardio aspect of spinning..instructor had no clue about zones and recovery. Useless training, and if you deviated from his silly routine or wore earbuds he yelled at you. (Note: A few of ladies loved him.)


It's that human thing.

jmccain

It seems to me (and I'm not an expert nor am in the medical field) that that book may be suggesting that cardio-vascular fitness is somehow related to performing well in any sport. That doesn't seem right to me. I ride nearly everyday and during parts of my ride, like climbing, I'm near my physical limit. Because of this, my blood pressure is low as is my resting heart rate and I'm on no medication. I also do well on medical stress tests. Probably most of us can say the same.

That, to me, indicates good CV fitness.

If you put me in a rowing contest, particularly on the water rather than a machine, I'd guess I would perform miserably because of the specific requirements of the sport.

That, to me, indicates a poor rower - not poor CV fitness.

leob1

Absolutely. When I make a conscious effort to attend spin classes, and\or put time on the trainer in the basement during the winter months, I'm in much better overall condition when the spring riding season arrives. I can do longer rides more comfortably, and with a higher average speed than when I don't do indoor 'riding'. The spining maintains CV fitness.

GeorgeBMac

Not to start a debate -- partly because I don't believe anybody actually knows the answer, but:

If you had to choose, I wonder which is better for you: 30 minutes all out -- or the 4 hour metric?
... I tend to favor the 4 hour metric. But for me, that's just a gut feel...

But then, I guess the "correct" answer is "Both"...

Well, don't mind me... Just thinkin' out loud again...

Boudicca

+!.

Up here in the Great White North it's hard for wimps like me to bike between about November and March, barring a day or so.

But regular spin classes keep my biking muscles alive over the winter, and it's easier to get back into the riding routine. That's especially true if I manage a winter break -- I am off to Arizona in February, and I know that the spin classes I'm doing (I aim at three a week) will make the riding more possible than would have been the case without it.

Any workout is better than no workout at all.

digibud

We continue to learn and know a lot more than we did 10 years ago. We know that High Intensity Interval Training is really a key. Your body develops in response to stress which is why High Intensity Interval Training works so well. While it's true that a cyclist needs to break his butt in and you need seat time for that, in terms of racing and raising your anaerobic threshold and basic cardio improvement, it's all about stressing your system by pushing yourself to your limit. I would recommend "The First Twenty Minutes" as a great read that helps to explain how important it is to do high intensity work, as opposed to long slow distance work. Both have their place to be sure but it's the stress of HIIT work that really transforms a person. Cyclists typically get that when climbing hills even if they don't consciously work at it. As the book said, if you ride easy for twenty miles 5 times a week you'll get comfortable with it but it won't continue to get you better and better. Stressing your body for 30min several times a week can take less time but you'll continue to improve by doing that to a greater degree than when doing long slow rides.

Rowan

It is always worth remembering that not everyone wants to race or increase their speed. And that anyone engaging in HIIT training from a low level of fitness should get a doctor's check before starting.

Rowan

In less than a month of gym work, my outdoor on-bike fitness has improved substantially.

digibud

I'd say very few people DO want to engage in HIIT training. It can't be called fun unless you have a good masochistic streak somewhere. Just getting to the point where you can judge your maximum 5 minute effort is very difficult and doesn't happen over night. It's easy to know you pushed too hard if you die before 5min is up but judging the flip side, simply knowing when you've pushing yourself to the max that you can do in 5min (or whatever your set time is) is harder to judge and it's physically really hard. I typically have to rest as long as I push if I want to have any chance of doing several sets.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0311123639.htm has a good article and it relates to me because I'm over 60.
I see HIIT routines of anything from 1 to 5 minutes. I'm not sure it matters. The underlying human physiology they both exploit in order to gain fitness is the need to stress the body and initiate it's response which is to strengthen your stressed muscles, including your heart. That's essentially the definition of improving ones health as well as cycling ability.
But out of all the cyclists in the world, not many are "cyclists" working at gaining that level of fitness. It's just important foundational information that "cyclists" should be aware of, at least conceptually, regardless of whether the choose to engage in HIIT.
Just as importantly, it should be recognized that you can, to some degree, choose your level of "hi". There's no magic number that I'm aware of but anyone looking to try to avail themselves of what we know now about gaining fitness, that your improvement in fitness for a given exercise correlates with the level of effort. Short hard bursts are better than long sustained efforts; gains in fitness are proportional (to some degree) to direct effort, not length of time in the saddle.
One might say that just about everything you do outside of the 20 or 30 most strenuous minutes of your ride , is pretty much just fun time for you. Put it in or don't put it in but you're strength and fitness are dictated by the level of stress you put your body under for those high effort minutes. Longer is fine...burns calories, is fun and one learns from simply having more time in the seat etc etc, but in terms of fitness, it's the max effort that's the golden goose.
I find that to be very interesting and very important - especially for the people that ride for fitness and that's not a small part of the over 60 crew.

stapfam

I go out for a couple of hours on most rides and I do those rides at a pace that means I can finish the rides. Speed and effort means nothing to me providing I can keep the effort in a "Working Zone" for most of the ride. That means HR at around 75 to 80% and rarely below that but with the occasional exertion up to a higher level. There is no way I can keep effort at 90% or higher for those two hours. I work hard on those rides but I also take time to enjoy the roses but also ensure that I put in some real effort at times.

But Time at the gym is where I work hard. Whether it be on the Cardio Vascular or spinning class. BUT only for an hour at a time. Start off gently at the 75% Heart rate and build on that. I know I will be fit when I hit that 100% mark 45 minutes into the 1 hour session. So far I have only hit 95% at the end of the hour once. Still plenty of fitness to find.

GeorgeBMac

Glad to hear that the gym is working out for you -- and that you've integrated both cycling and gym work quite well...

Your shed may not get a new roof -- but I think you will be happy with your fitness level.