What's the Point of Shoes/Clips, etc?
#27
Junior Member
Since resuming cycling in my adult life about 12 years ago, I've been on the ground 4 times. Every time, it was an effect of not getting out of the clipless pedals fast enough at a stop. Certainly my own fault, but not much fun anyway. I don't race, so I've adopted this mentality, https://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=45, and haven't seen my riding suffer at all. I've outfitted my bikes with these pedals, https://www.rivbike.com/product-p/pe4.htm, have ridden in every condition I would if I was clipped in, and have been free of mishap. The freedom to wear sneakers, and just jump on the bike when I want to, is liberating. I ride 100 - 150 miles a week, and do a few centuries a year.
I understand there are situations that call for clipless pedals, and since I have them, I can re-install them any time, but they are far from being a necessity for me.
Now if I can get my Brooks saddle broken in, maybe I can ditch the cycling shorts too.
I understand there are situations that call for clipless pedals, and since I have them, I can re-install them any time, but they are far from being a necessity for me.
Now if I can get my Brooks saddle broken in, maybe I can ditch the cycling shorts too.
#28
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Since resuming cycling in my adult life about 12 years ago, I've been on the ground 4 times. Every time, it was an effect of not getting out of the clipless pedals fast enough at a stop. Certainly my own fault, but not much fun anyway. I don't race, so I've adopted this mentality, https://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=45, and haven't seen my riding suffer at all. I've outfitted my bikes with these pedals, https://www.rivbike.com/product-p/pe4.htm, have ridden in every condition I would if I was clipped in, and have been free of mishap. The freedom to wear sneakers, and just jump on the bike when I want to, is liberating. I ride 100 - 150 miles a week, and do a few centuries a year.
I understand there are situations that call for clipless pedals, and since I have them, I can re-install them any time, but they are far from being a necessity for me.
Now if I can get my Brooks saddle broken in, maybe I can ditch the cycling shorts too.
I understand there are situations that call for clipless pedals, and since I have them, I can re-install them any time, but they are far from being a necessity for me.
Now if I can get my Brooks saddle broken in, maybe I can ditch the cycling shorts too.
#29
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Lots of good info here, I'll just throw in a few things as well.
Prior to clipless pedals about all that was available was the toe cage type that were referred to as clips, they may or may not include straps that buckle around the toe of the shoe. Along with a few other manufacturers Shimano came up with a pedal system named SPD (Shimano Pedal Dynamics) that uses cleats that are affixed to the soles of specially equipped cycling shoes. The cleats snap into a lever and spring system on the SPD pedals. Since the name "clip" was already used to refer to the toe cages / straps the term "clipless" was coined to refer to these type of pedals used with cleats. in retrospect it makes little sense since quite often people wrongly assume SPD pedals are "clips" when they are actually "clipless". I prefer the use of "cleated pedals" to differentiate them and avoid the clip/less confusion. There are several different types of "clipless" systems, each has its advantages and drawbacks. I use the SPD system.
Another of the benefits o cleated pedals is the fact that your foot is held in an optimum position to exert force to the pedals. I too am an old fart and have a bit of neuropathy in my feet so it's difficult for me to tell where my feet are without looking down. I've found myself pedaling with my toes or heel a few times. The SPDs help out with this. And as mentioned it heps keep your feet ON the pedals, consider yourself luck if you have never lost your footing after hitting a bump, it's especially nasty when your foot comes down in FRONT of the pedal and contacts the ground and the pedal smashes into the back of your leg - REAL REAL nasty when the pedal has spikes. OUCH!
There are combo pedals, SPDs surrounded by a cage, so you can use either the cleats or regular platform shoes with them. It is unhandy to have to walk around in cleated shoes, even mountain bike type shoes that have the cleat recessed and surrounded with lugs, they are naisy when walking, of course stiff and unforgiving and can be slippery on slick floors. So the dual pedal types will make it easier if you anticipate walking around and wear your regular shoes when riding.
Prior to clipless pedals about all that was available was the toe cage type that were referred to as clips, they may or may not include straps that buckle around the toe of the shoe. Along with a few other manufacturers Shimano came up with a pedal system named SPD (Shimano Pedal Dynamics) that uses cleats that are affixed to the soles of specially equipped cycling shoes. The cleats snap into a lever and spring system on the SPD pedals. Since the name "clip" was already used to refer to the toe cages / straps the term "clipless" was coined to refer to these type of pedals used with cleats. in retrospect it makes little sense since quite often people wrongly assume SPD pedals are "clips" when they are actually "clipless". I prefer the use of "cleated pedals" to differentiate them and avoid the clip/less confusion. There are several different types of "clipless" systems, each has its advantages and drawbacks. I use the SPD system.
Another of the benefits o cleated pedals is the fact that your foot is held in an optimum position to exert force to the pedals. I too am an old fart and have a bit of neuropathy in my feet so it's difficult for me to tell where my feet are without looking down. I've found myself pedaling with my toes or heel a few times. The SPDs help out with this. And as mentioned it heps keep your feet ON the pedals, consider yourself luck if you have never lost your footing after hitting a bump, it's especially nasty when your foot comes down in FRONT of the pedal and contacts the ground and the pedal smashes into the back of your leg - REAL REAL nasty when the pedal has spikes. OUCH!
There are combo pedals, SPDs surrounded by a cage, so you can use either the cleats or regular platform shoes with them. It is unhandy to have to walk around in cleated shoes, even mountain bike type shoes that have the cleat recessed and surrounded with lugs, they are naisy when walking, of course stiff and unforgiving and can be slippery on slick floors. So the dual pedal types will make it easier if you anticipate walking around and wear your regular shoes when riding.
#30
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I am 48 and had been away from cycling for over 20 years and when i got my bike 2 months ago (Hybrid) i wanted to try the clipless and shoes so i did... once you remember to remove your feet (unclip) you do ok... if it was just for street riding and some trail??? i am not sure i would but i use mine for exercise and it does make a difference...I am glad i did but i am sure it's a very personnal choice also...It is very precise pedaling i can say that and no chances of the shoe coming off the pedal...
#31
Senior Member
I find that with clipless, it makes it easier for me to pedal in circles, rather than just mashing them down. I find it quite comfortable to ride with them. If you want the flexibility to just hop on and ride, you can use a pedal such as
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-PD-M32.../dp/B001AT33CW
which has the clipless on one side and the other is kind of a rat trap style. I use these on my hybrid. That way if I want to go ride a bit I can use the shoes/clips and if I want to use it to just tool around on vacation or with the family, I can use any shoe or sandal I am wearing at the moment.
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-PD-M32.../dp/B001AT33CW
which has the clipless on one side and the other is kind of a rat trap style. I use these on my hybrid. That way if I want to go ride a bit I can use the shoes/clips and if I want to use it to just tool around on vacation or with the family, I can use any shoe or sandal I am wearing at the moment.
#32
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Since resuming cycling in my adult life about 12 years ago, I've been on the ground 4 times. Every time, it was an effect of not getting out of the clipless pedals fast enough at a stop. Certainly my own fault, but not much fun anyway. I don't race, so I've adopted this mentality, https://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=45, and haven't seen my riding suffer at all. I've outfitted my bikes with these pedals, https://www.rivbike.com/product-p/pe4.htm, have ridden in every condition I would if I was clipped in, and have been free of mishap. The freedom to wear sneakers, and just jump on the bike when I want to, is liberating. I ride 100 - 150 miles a week, and do a few centuries a year.
I understand there are situations that call for clipless pedals, and since I have them, I can re-install them any time, but they are far from being a necessity for me.
Now if I can get my Brooks saddle broken in, maybe I can ditch the cycling shorts too.
I understand there are situations that call for clipless pedals, and since I have them, I can re-install them any time, but they are far from being a necessity for me.
Now if I can get my Brooks saddle broken in, maybe I can ditch the cycling shorts too.
Now I return you to your regularly scheduled debate.
#33
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I ride with clipless, and have done so for 30+ years... When I ride a bike with no clips (plain pedal) I find it awkward--especially moving the pedal to a 3 o'clock position, as I have to put my foot under the pedal to move it--with the clipless, it is seamless. I have some sort of clipless system on all my bikes--wouldn't ride without (although my folder has 'campus' pedals, which I can use with sneakers...but I rarely do)
train safe-
train safe-
I still have a pair of Cinelli clipless (and unused cleats) as well as a couple sets of the original 1984 Look clipless pedals. It's tough to source the cleats and the Cinelli spindles are prone to failure.
#34
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1984 is 29 years ago, so 30 years is not that far off the mark for LOOKs.
I got LOOKs in '86. SO much better than clips and straps. Safer and more comfortable.
The advantage of cycling shoes, whether for clips and straps or clipless pedals, is the shoes are stiffer than shoes intended for walking. This makes pedaling more comfortable since you are not having to use the muscles in your feet and calves to resist pedaling forces. Racing shoes which are not intended for more than minimal walking are very stiff. Touring and many MTB shoes are intended for some walking and have a bit of flexibility to make that easier.
I got LOOKs in '86. SO much better than clips and straps. Safer and more comfortable.
The advantage of cycling shoes, whether for clips and straps or clipless pedals, is the shoes are stiffer than shoes intended for walking. This makes pedaling more comfortable since you are not having to use the muscles in your feet and calves to resist pedaling forces. Racing shoes which are not intended for more than minimal walking are very stiff. Touring and many MTB shoes are intended for some walking and have a bit of flexibility to make that easier.
#35
Senior Member
I keep seeing a recurring theme, that clipless pedals are for racing. And, conversely, if you're riding for "fitness and pleasure" you don't need them. I think somebody is improperly drawing the Venn diagrams. Racers might be a subset of the group that uses clipless; but clipless users encompass much more than that subset. Not only that, but the definition of "fitness and pleasure" varies so widely as to be a completely useless descriptor. To me, a 25 mile ride at 21 mph is a fitness ride. a 4-mile outing with my wife at <10 mph might be pleasurable but would count less toward fitness than playing "burp" on my Wii.
Nobody *needs* clipless pedals. But if you ride enough you might find yourself thinking about them. Only you can, or should, make that call.
Nobody *needs* clipless pedals. But if you ride enough you might find yourself thinking about them. Only you can, or should, make that call.
#36
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You could just put some nylon toe clips and straps on plain rat trap pedals, for cheap, just to see how you like 'em. That way you don't have investment in shoes or pedals if you don't care for them. If you do like having your foot more connected you could always upgrade to something else later if you want.
Last edited by Zinger; 08-10-13 at 09:38 PM. Reason: Added the word "toe" for clarity
#37
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Flat platform is simply not tenable once one rides with clips or clipless pedals. It's just too weird. Hard to explain, but it feels like the feet want to lift off the pedals. I tried clips, no straps, more like those that 10 Wheels showed up above, but then my toes began to hurt after really long rides or daily commutes of over an hour each way. So, I moved on to clipless.
So far, I only broke one leg, only once, when my feet did not release quickly enough after I wiped out as I traversed an obliquely angled railroad crossing. As luck would have it, I landed right on the rail with my thigh and snapped off my femur head. Since then, I've been more careful but stuck with the clipless shoe/pedal combination. However, I significantly loosened the screw setting the spring tension of the cleat-clip on the pedals. This allows the shoe to release much more quickly with little resistance. I also lubricate the mechanism, quite frequently.
Moral of the story, going clipless can have a huge downside.
So far, I only broke one leg, only once, when my feet did not release quickly enough after I wiped out as I traversed an obliquely angled railroad crossing. As luck would have it, I landed right on the rail with my thigh and snapped off my femur head. Since then, I've been more careful but stuck with the clipless shoe/pedal combination. However, I significantly loosened the screw setting the spring tension of the cleat-clip on the pedals. This allows the shoe to release much more quickly with little resistance. I also lubricate the mechanism, quite frequently.
Moral of the story, going clipless can have a huge downside.
#38
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Ride bare foot if it makes you happy...no difference to me and I don't give a hoot.
I prefer good shoes and clipless pedals...been using them since Mavic offered their first clipless in the eighties...prior to that it was wooden soled Diadora's with toe clips and straps...Binda straps if you please.
Your feet don't slip, they are comfortable, efficiency and a smooth pedal stroke.
I prefer good shoes and clipless pedals...been using them since Mavic offered their first clipless in the eighties...prior to that it was wooden soled Diadora's with toe clips and straps...Binda straps if you please.
Your feet don't slip, they are comfortable, efficiency and a smooth pedal stroke.
#39
Senior Member
What's the Point of Shoes/Clips, etc?
People not already using clipless shouldn't bother with it.
People already using clipless tend not to go back unless there's some reason to. When I ride an Electra Townie I would never install SPDs on such a bike.
When I went bent, I thought clipless was really important. I'm on vacation and I'm on a rent-a-bent. I called ahead to make they would install SPDs, and brought my own shoes.
As with all things cycling, YMMV.
People already using clipless tend not to go back unless there's some reason to. When I ride an Electra Townie I would never install SPDs on such a bike.
When I went bent, I thought clipless was really important. I'm on vacation and I'm on a rent-a-bent. I called ahead to make they would install SPDs, and brought my own shoes.
As with all things cycling, YMMV.
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#40
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It seems like I have to write this about every six months so this time I am going to save it in a library of stock BF posts.
I was cycling and running a lot in the late 70s in San Diego. I was using my running shoes on my Schwin Varsity with platform pedals. I knew nothing about bike fit and pedaling technique. As I got better, I got toe clips and better bikes. I followed that up with toe clips and straps. I then wanted my feet cleated into the pedals with a very stiff shoe. I purchased Vittoria shoes with wooden soles and nailed steel cleats on the bottom that fit over the edge of the pedal to lock in the foot. I had to reach down to engage the the toe straps and again to release. If I crashed, the shoe was not coming out of the toe cage and strap. To make the shoe stay firmly in the cage, the toe strap had to be fairly tight and put pressure on the top of the foot.
Now why would a 20 something non competitive cyclist want this and what advantage would there be? I thought it was cool and I could generate more power by engaging more of the pedal stroke.
What has changed today? Clipless pedals and modern shoes are substantially more comfortable and safer. The cleats release on crashes and one does not have to reach down and release the toe strap. Carbon fiber has replaced the wood soles and the buckling of the shoes is very slick.
Why bother? The goal of generating power is by using your glutes, quads and hamstrings. You are supposed to drive the leg down and sweep it back keeping the heal of the foot in the back of the shoe. That is not feasible without retention. The foot will press down but not complete the pedal stroke (with much force). So if there is an analogy is it like playing golf with a bad swing. The bad swing is good enough for now. However, one develops muscle memory and that bad swing is going to hang around when some time in the future you may want a proper swing. Pedal stroke is the same thing. Why not have a proper pedal stroke and tool around as your please. If your tastes or needs change, you just have to crank up the riding and not change a thing. IMO, proper technique and equipment is never a bad thing.
I was cycling and running a lot in the late 70s in San Diego. I was using my running shoes on my Schwin Varsity with platform pedals. I knew nothing about bike fit and pedaling technique. As I got better, I got toe clips and better bikes. I followed that up with toe clips and straps. I then wanted my feet cleated into the pedals with a very stiff shoe. I purchased Vittoria shoes with wooden soles and nailed steel cleats on the bottom that fit over the edge of the pedal to lock in the foot. I had to reach down to engage the the toe straps and again to release. If I crashed, the shoe was not coming out of the toe cage and strap. To make the shoe stay firmly in the cage, the toe strap had to be fairly tight and put pressure on the top of the foot.
Now why would a 20 something non competitive cyclist want this and what advantage would there be? I thought it was cool and I could generate more power by engaging more of the pedal stroke.
What has changed today? Clipless pedals and modern shoes are substantially more comfortable and safer. The cleats release on crashes and one does not have to reach down and release the toe strap. Carbon fiber has replaced the wood soles and the buckling of the shoes is very slick.
Why bother? The goal of generating power is by using your glutes, quads and hamstrings. You are supposed to drive the leg down and sweep it back keeping the heal of the foot in the back of the shoe. That is not feasible without retention. The foot will press down but not complete the pedal stroke (with much force). So if there is an analogy is it like playing golf with a bad swing. The bad swing is good enough for now. However, one develops muscle memory and that bad swing is going to hang around when some time in the future you may want a proper swing. Pedal stroke is the same thing. Why not have a proper pedal stroke and tool around as your please. If your tastes or needs change, you just have to crank up the riding and not change a thing. IMO, proper technique and equipment is never a bad thing.
#41
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I wasn't sure exactly where to post this, but since I'm well over 50, I figure that here is as good a place as any.
I ride my bike purely for pleasure and exercise - absolutely no racing or competition. Since finding this site, I see a lot of discussion about clipless pedals, clipped (is that the right word?) pedals, shoes, etc. However, I haven't found any basic information of what the point is in locking your feet into the pedals. Is that really desirable for an older rider like me that just rides local streets and bike paths for pleasure and exercise - perhaps 50-60 miles per week? FWIW, my bike is a Specialized Expedition with "normal" (clipless?) pedals.
Not trying to be difficult or troll - I just really don't know and am curious about this.
Thanks!
I ride my bike purely for pleasure and exercise - absolutely no racing or competition. Since finding this site, I see a lot of discussion about clipless pedals, clipped (is that the right word?) pedals, shoes, etc. However, I haven't found any basic information of what the point is in locking your feet into the pedals. Is that really desirable for an older rider like me that just rides local streets and bike paths for pleasure and exercise - perhaps 50-60 miles per week? FWIW, my bike is a Specialized Expedition with "normal" (clipless?) pedals.
Not trying to be difficult or troll - I just really don't know and am curious about this.
Thanks!
I had toe clips always until circa 1984 I got The LOOK type. I like the SPDs now but I am not particular. My Surly Cross Check does have platform pedals, "normal" (for you) on one side and SPD on the other. I use the non-SPD side so I can stomp down the rode a few blocks in REEF flip-flops or when I know I may do combat with a dog etc.
LC
Last edited by Loose Chain; 08-10-13 at 10:47 PM.
#42
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No harm in giving clipless (cleated shoes and binding pedals) a try. Trying new things is good. Use either double sides MTB SPD pedals, or the pedals with platform on one side, SPD on the other.
You will probably fall over at a stop when you forget to unclip - once (okay, maybe twice) - but since by definition you are moving 0 mph, the harm will be to your pride.
I ride clipless all the time. More powerful acceleration and climbing, less tiring, more secure.
Last week I was riding a friend's bike with platform pedals, not even toe clips. I didn't like it so much.
You will probably fall over at a stop when you forget to unclip - once (okay, maybe twice) - but since by definition you are moving 0 mph, the harm will be to your pride.
I ride clipless all the time. More powerful acceleration and climbing, less tiring, more secure.
Last week I was riding a friend's bike with platform pedals, not even toe clips. I didn't like it so much.
#43
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I'm 61 with a left knee that is subject to frequent patellar tendonitis. There are "inflammation" days for this knee when - if I didn't use clipless pedals (Speedplays) - I would not be able to ride at all because I must spend the first 5-10 miles mostly only pulling up with that knee until it warms up and I can ride normally. Couldn't do without them.
#44
Junior Member
I shouldn't do this but I can't let that go. Yes you do not "need" clipless, that tends to be true. But anything other than that printed by Rivendale from the brain of Grant Peterson is misinformation at best and a downright fib at the least. He states in his book you can't pedal in circles and a few paragraphs later talks about unloading your leg on the up stroke. You can't unload on the upstroke without pulling up of lifting the upstroke leg. He suggests mashing up a hill and says we have too many gears. I can't believe his one voice is more correct than every other voice in the industry.
Now I return you to your regularly scheduled debate.
Now I return you to your regularly scheduled debate.
#45
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You could just put some nylon toe clips and straps on plain rat trap pedals, for cheap, just to see how you like 'em. That way you don't have investment in shoes or pedals if you don't care for them. If you do like having your foot more connected you could always upgrade to something else later if you want.
#46
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It seems like I have to write this about every six months so this time I am going to save it in a library of stock BF posts.
I was cycling and running a lot in the late 70s in San Diego. I was using my running shoes on my Schwin Varsity with platform pedals. I knew nothing about bike fit and pedaling technique. As I got better, I got toe clips and better bikes. I followed that up with toe clips and straps. I then wanted my feet cleated into the pedals with a very stiff shoe. I purchased Vittoria shoes with wooden soles and nailed steel cleats on the bottom that fit over the edge of the pedal to lock in the foot. I had to reach down to engage the the toe straps and again to release. If I crashed, the shoe was not coming out of the toe cage and strap. To make the shoe stay firmly in the cage, the toe strap had to be fairly tight and put pressure on the top of the foot.
Now why would a 20 something non competitive cyclist want this and what advantage would there be? I thought it was cool and I could generate more power by engaging more of the pedal stroke.
What has changed today? Clipless pedals and modern shoes are substantially more comfortable and safer. The cleats release on crashes and one does not have to reach down and release the toe strap. Carbon fiber has replaced the wood soles and the buckling of the shoes is very slick.
Why bother? The goal of generating power is by using your glutes, quads and hamstrings. You are supposed to drive the leg down and sweep it back keeping the heal of the foot in the back of the shoe. That is not feasible without retention. The foot will press down but not complete the pedal stroke (with much force). So if there is an analogy is it like playing golf with a bad swing. The bad swing is good enough for now. However, one develops muscle memory and that bad swing is going to hang around when some time in the future you may want a proper swing. Pedal stroke is the same thing. Why not have a proper pedal stroke and tool around as your please. If your tastes or needs change, you just have to crank up the riding and not change a thing. IMO, proper technique and equipment is never a bad thing.
I was cycling and running a lot in the late 70s in San Diego. I was using my running shoes on my Schwin Varsity with platform pedals. I knew nothing about bike fit and pedaling technique. As I got better, I got toe clips and better bikes. I followed that up with toe clips and straps. I then wanted my feet cleated into the pedals with a very stiff shoe. I purchased Vittoria shoes with wooden soles and nailed steel cleats on the bottom that fit over the edge of the pedal to lock in the foot. I had to reach down to engage the the toe straps and again to release. If I crashed, the shoe was not coming out of the toe cage and strap. To make the shoe stay firmly in the cage, the toe strap had to be fairly tight and put pressure on the top of the foot.
Now why would a 20 something non competitive cyclist want this and what advantage would there be? I thought it was cool and I could generate more power by engaging more of the pedal stroke.
What has changed today? Clipless pedals and modern shoes are substantially more comfortable and safer. The cleats release on crashes and one does not have to reach down and release the toe strap. Carbon fiber has replaced the wood soles and the buckling of the shoes is very slick.
Why bother? The goal of generating power is by using your glutes, quads and hamstrings. You are supposed to drive the leg down and sweep it back keeping the heal of the foot in the back of the shoe. That is not feasible without retention. The foot will press down but not complete the pedal stroke (with much force). So if there is an analogy is it like playing golf with a bad swing. The bad swing is good enough for now. However, one develops muscle memory and that bad swing is going to hang around when some time in the future you may want a proper swing. Pedal stroke is the same thing. Why not have a proper pedal stroke and tool around as your please. If your tastes or needs change, you just have to crank up the riding and not change a thing. IMO, proper technique and equipment is never a bad thing.
#48
The Left Coast, USA
I'm back to using both, clipless on my "fast" bikes, platforms and straps or clips/cages on my other bikes. Being able to wear tennis shoes going to the farmer's market, commuting, errands...great. Being able to spin up hills aggressively, spin over 100rpm on the flats, or go crazy in spin class with clipless...great.
There is nothing at all necessary about clipless, but there are times and places they simply outshine other retention systems.
There is nothing at all necessary about clipless, but there are times and places they simply outshine other retention systems.
Last edited by FrenchFit; 08-11-13 at 08:17 AM.
#49
Senior Member
I have a Trek Madone that has clipless pedals. I use this bike for fast group riding and whenever I want to pretend I'm one of those guys in those Rapha films.
I have a Surly Long Haul Trucker touring bike that has platforms battle axes, a.k.a Rivendell Grip Kings. I use for just riding around when I want to go easy, near or far but with no intention of anything.
I like both.
I have a Surly Long Haul Trucker touring bike that has platforms battle axes, a.k.a Rivendell Grip Kings. I use for just riding around when I want to go easy, near or far but with no intention of anything.
I like both.
#50
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