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Old 09-21-13, 02:41 PM   #1
jlstrat
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Now, here's a bit of a pain...11 speed

The new Shimano 11 speeds are not compatible with 9 or 10 speed hubs, so you can't just buy a freehub for your current setup. Should I pop for the Ultegra hubs, or go whole hawg and buy Chris King?
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Old 09-22-13, 05:44 PM   #2
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Since so many people looked, I guess I stated the obvious, although my search didn't yield any info here. So...I'm leaning towards staying with Ultegra, which I already have. Upgrading to anything else, even Dura Ace, commits me to expensive parts later, like the freehub, which is a couple of hundred bucks for a Dura Ace. If I'd upgraded to 10 speed, I would have been OK, but move to 11 and the cassette is too wide. I would have been perfectly happy with 9 speed if Shimano would still make Ultegra shirters, etc, for it.
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Old 09-22-13, 06:21 PM   #3
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IMO, 11-speed is a triumph of marketing over good sense, at least for recreational riders. Six was an improvement over five, and maybe seven was an upgrade from six. After that, it's all bling.
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Old 09-22-13, 07:12 PM   #4
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IMO, 11-speed is a triumph of marketing over good sense, at least for recreational riders. Six was an improvement over five, and maybe seven was an upgrade from six. After that, it's all bling.
I agree that one extra cog is unlikely to change the average cyclists life. But at least with Shimano, the new 11sp groups supposed to be a big step up in shift quality versus 7900/6700. Also, some people are buying new bikes with 11sp and realizing their "good" wheels aren't compatible with them.
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Old 09-22-13, 07:31 PM   #5
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IMO, 11-speed is a triumph of marketing over good sense, at least for recreational riders. Six was an improvement over five, and maybe seven was an upgrade from six. After that, it's all bling.
No. 1.
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Old 09-22-13, 08:08 PM   #6
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I will only go 10- or 11-speed when 8 & 9 are GONE. (But then, I ride MTB) As far as 'quality' goes, well, I don't buy Shimano drivetrain parts.

My world would be perfect if SRAM made X.9 shifters in 8-speed; other than that, I'm good where I am. In fact, since my X.9's are 9-speed, they're taking next year off -- I'm "retrofitting" my Kona with the 8-speed system I installed on my daughter's "Sweet 16" bike, SRAM X.4 shifters, which will work with my newer X.7 derailleur. I'm a little tired of breaking 9-speed chains.

Maybe by the time 8 & 9 are gone, I'll be old enough that I won't put so much stress on the drivetrain; BUT, by then, I'll likely be on the IGH Electra......
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Old 09-22-13, 10:06 PM   #7
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But look at the bright side. Until someone forces wider dropout spacing onto the scene, all three major component makers are finally somewhat compatible with 11-speed. You can once again shove a Shimano wheel onto a complete Campy set-up and it will work fine.

The downside for me is that I have generally skipped the evens and stayed with odd-numbered cogs (as opposed to being an odd old codger). I did five, seven and nine. Perhaps I should bite the bullet and build something up with eleven cogs. Tradition and my inner cheapskate go to war...
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Old 09-22-13, 10:50 PM   #8
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One thing to remember about having more gears is that chains get weaker. 9 spd chains are weaker than 8's. 10 speed weaker than 9;s. So how does an 11 spd chain fare over the 9's
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Old 09-23-13, 03:43 AM   #9
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IMO, 11-speed is a triumph of marketing over good sense, at least for recreational riders. Six was an improvement over five, and maybe seven was an upgrade from six. After that, it's all bling.
I think 8 was the perfect balance between not needing different a cassette for every ride and not having to replace cassettes and chains all the time.

It all comes down to racing, racers are at the very edge of physical endurance and conditioning, they need lighter bicycles that are stiffer, and they need all those gears to stay in the very middle of the power band. Even so it isn't going to accomplish much, but when the difference between first place and out of the money is under 1 second, the pro-racer needs all the help he/she can get.
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Old 09-23-13, 05:03 AM   #10
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If you are simply missing some single sprocket you'd like in an 8 speed cassette, for instance, you could take out one that you don't need and replace the empty with what you'd like. (If you replace your top gear though, you couldn't just move the next up but would have to replace the first one with a dedicated first position sprocket.)

Depending on what you're missing in your drivetrain that might be better for some people than sinking money into a lot of upgrading. Personally I miss about mid 50s gear inches for grades or just lollygagging and that's in a 16 tooth for a lot of compacts. Not too many 8 speed cassettes with the somewhat larger climbing end-sprocket give you a 16 along with it unless you modify it.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-23-13 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 09-23-13, 03:39 PM   #11
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I guess I'm the oddball here. I'm building up a new frame, (2012 Pinarello KOBH), with Ultegra 6800. My current bikes have either 6700 or 7900. Even though I am just a "recreational rider", there are times when I could really use that new 32t in the back and at other times, the 11t, (have no interest going SRAM or Campy, even though I realize they make excellent groups). So, I'm getting the mid-cage RD and the 11-32 cassette. It will be a decent all-purpose bike. I don't really care about gear ratio gaps, and I'm not a spinner.

So, the shop I purchased the frame from ordered a 6800 group for me today. Wheels are a problem because I cannot use my old Ultegra or Dura-Ace wheelsets. I haven't fully decided yet, but am going with either a Ultegra WH-6800 wheelset or a Dura-Ace WH-9000-C24-CL/WH-9000-C24-TU wheelset. The price of the 9000 wheelsets are just over double the 6800 wheelsets, and for only a ~285 gram difference. Most probably will go with the 6800.
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Old 09-23-13, 07:29 PM   #12
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To the OP, I think your decision to stay with Ultegra is sound. As for me I have one (soon to be two) 10 speed bikes. Most of my bikes are 9 speed (a good value point), two are 8 speed, and one is a single speed.
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Old 09-23-13, 08:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
If you are simply missing some single sprocket you'd like in an 8 speed cassette, for instance, you could take out one that you don't need and replace the empty with what you'd like. (If you replace your top gear though, you couldn't just move the next up but would have to replace the first one with a dedicated first position sprocket.)

Depending on what you're missing in your drivetrain that might be better for some people than sinking money into a lot of upgrading. Personally I miss about mid 50s gear inches for grades or just lollygagging and that's in a 16 tooth for a lot of compacts. Not too many 8 speed cassettes with the somewhat larger climbing end-sprocket give you a 16 along with it unless you modify it.
Shimano HG50 cassette 11/32 coded AW

11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32

This is the all purpose cassette that I mated to the 34/50 compact. It has some of the advantages of that "big gear" MTB cassette with a more even spread of usable gears. Not quite the 16 you're speaking of but
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Old 09-23-13, 08:30 PM   #14
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I'd be happy take a special order if I were in the LBS,
out here the 10 speed stuff is about all, the locals are willing to spring for ,
so that is what the spares inventory is 10 and less, ..
Touring riders on the latest Kit that have parts problems , [& Campag Ergo, in general ]

often get a non waiting around bene-sugg to limp a couple days down the coast ,
and a colleague shop will get a call ahead

and they will have , because of the communication , the parts when you get there.


Myself, I dropped off the derailleur band wagon entirely . [at about 7 'speeds']

I now Plod along on my IGH bikes ..
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Old 09-23-13, 10:09 PM   #15
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Shimano HG50 cassette 11/32 coded AW

11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32

This is the all purpose cassette that I mated to the 34/50 compact. It has some of the advantages of that "big gear" MTB cassette with a more even spread of usable gears. Not quite the 16 you're speaking of but
Couldn't use that 11 even with the compact. I'm running a 50/39 now and don't even use my 14 anymore. I'm next modifying an HG50 with: 14,15,16,17,19,21,23,26. That gives me a straight cog where I can use it and enough climbing capability for the short climbs that I'm likely to take on around here. I'm giving up the top end for the 16.

Seems to me that any 9 or 10 speed setup would already have that plus a usable top gear and the 10 could throw in a 30 as well. If you're short straight stuff at the bottom of the big ring I suppose you could either justify the 11 speed or just change cassettes depending on the terrain.

Last edited by Zinger; 09-24-13 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 09-23-13, 10:32 PM   #16
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One thing to remember about having more gears is that chains get weaker. 9 spd chains are weaker than 8's. 10 speed weaker than 9;s. So how does an 11 spd chain fare over the 9's
Gee, I have over 6,000 miles on my Colnago C59 (Campy Record 11 speed); over 3,500 miles on the Bianchi (Campy Record 11 speed) and a little over 1,500 miles on the Bottecchia SLX (Campy Athena 11 speed) and have not had a single problem with the chains on any of those bikes.

Weaker? Mhmmmmm!!!
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Old 09-24-13, 09:05 AM   #17
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I think 8 was the perfect balance between not needing different a cassette for every ride and not having to replace cassettes and chains all the time.

.
Agreed.

As well, on the older Shimano 8 spd. cassettes, they didn't use a spider, so you could mix and match cogs to get the gearing you wanted.

Oddly enough I just converted my tourer BACK to 8 spd. bar-cons (from 9 spd. brifters), buying a new cassette and chain for about $40. I can either run the 13-26 for hilly rides, or swap to my 12-19, which I built up from assorted 7 and 8 spd. cogs and 8 spd. spacers I had saved, for commuting on totally flat terrain. So much easier to deal with then 9/10/11.
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Old 09-24-13, 07:32 PM   #18
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One thing to remember about having more gears is that chains get weaker. 9 spd chains are weaker than 8's. 10 speed weaker than 9;s. So how does an 11 spd chain fare over the 9's
Is this verifiable fact based on empirical evidence or conjecture based on opinion?
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Old 09-24-13, 07:44 PM   #19
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The new Shimano 11 speeds are not compatible with 9 or 10 speed hubs, so you can't just buy a freehub for your current setup. Should I pop for the Ultegra hubs, or go whole hawg and buy Chris King?
If your hubs have a Campy freehub option, their 11 speed cassettes are completely compatible with Shimano or SRAM 11 speed shifters and derailleurs.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/...n-sight_303199
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Old 09-24-13, 08:12 PM   #20
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Gee, I have over 6,000 miles on my Colnago C59 (Campy Record 11 speed); over 3,500 miles on the Bianchi (Campy Record 11 speed) and a little over 1,500 miles on the Bottecchia SLX (Campy Athena 11 speed) and have not had a single problem with the chains on any of those bikes.

Weaker? Mhmmmmm!!!
They are weaker, in the sense that they eliminate rivet protrusions and have narrower side plates.

As someone else observed earlier in this thread, an 8-speed cassette or a 7-speed freewheel, both of which use an "8-speed" chain, is arguably the best system for the average rider, combining a good choice of ratios (particularly with a triple up front, but even with a double) with durability. I currently run 2x6 on all of my road bikes (I have used 2x7, which I prefer), and 3x8 on my mountain bike. I have no plans to change to 10 or 11 speeds in back.
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Old 09-24-13, 08:49 PM   #21
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There is a lot of luddite pseudo-wisdom in this thread.
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Old 09-24-13, 09:19 PM   #22
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They are weaker, in the sense that they eliminate rivet protrusions and have narrower side plates.

As someone else observed earlier in this thread, an 8-speed cassette or a 7-speed freewheel, both of which use an "8-speed" chain, is arguably the best system for the average rider, combining a good choice of ratios (particularly with a triple up front, but even with a double) with durability. I currently run 2x6 on all of my road bikes (I have used 2x7, which I prefer), and 3x8 on my mountain bike. I have no plans to change to 10 or 11 speeds in back.
I am not a materials engineer so I am in no position to address your comments. I can only tell you about my real life experience using Campy 11 speed, that and nearly 50 years of riding bikes.

Additionally, I just can't believe that Campy engineers (as well as Shimano) would design, produce and sell an inferior/weaker product.

But if 9 or 10 speeds work for you, then please go ahead and continue using them.

Remember...ride often and ride safely.
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Old 09-24-13, 09:21 PM   #23
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There is a lot of luddite pseudo-wisdom in this thread.
That is what I was thinking. There is a natural tendency to resist change and to want to stick with what is well-known and comfortable.
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Old 09-24-13, 10:31 PM   #24
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the chains might be weaker, but from what I've heard 10 speed chains last longer than 9 or 8 speed chains. I don't know from experience because the only 10 speed chain I own is sitting in a box
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Old 09-24-13, 10:55 PM   #25
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the chains might be weaker, but from what I've heard 10 speed chains last longer than 9 or 8 speed chains. I don't know from experience because the only 10 speed chain I own is sitting in a box
I wonder if the increased miles for 10 speed chains makes up for the lower price of the 9 speed chain.
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