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Thread: Frame Dilemma

  1. #1
    Seat Sniffer Biker395's Avatar
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    Frame Dilemma

    OK, so this is it.

    After a lot of looking around, I bought a Scott CR-1 back in 2008. Light, comfortable and fast. Best of all, it fit me. The only thing I didn't like about it was that the rear derailleur hanger was non-replaceable. But I figured ... 20 years of riding with no crashes ... what could go wrong?

    Well, 3 or 4 weeks after buying it, I blew a front tire descending at about 25 MPH. Broken collarbone, broken ribs, badass road rash. It sucked. What sucked more is that when I finally recovered, I went to replace the rear tire and noted that someone (the shop or the factory) had put a 700x32 tube in a 700x23 wheel and tire. So much for the mystery about how the front tire blew.

    The damage to the bike was about nil ... except (of course) the derailleur hanger got bent.

    I had the hanger bent back to the proper position, and it stayed that way pretty much for two years, when it again needed straightening. It stayed that way for a while, then needed straightening again. And each time it's bent back into position, it's never really totally correct, just close enough. So the bike has never really shifted as well as it should.

    Fed up with that, I contacted Scott to see if it could be fixed. They recommended Calfee, who will happily do it for >$500. Plus $65 for the dropout (Scott only wanted $25 for it), probably nearly $200 for shipping both ways, and extra if I want it to look nice. So we are looking at $700-$800 minimum. And it would be replaced by ... you guessed it ... yet another non-replaceable hanger.

    So here is the question. What would you do? I'm leaning to just chucking it all and buying another frame. Not looking forward to that, though ... because I like the way the CR-1 frame rides, climbs, and fits me.
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  2. #2
    Old fart JohnDThompson's Avatar
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    How about a bolt-on hanger?


  3. #3
    Seat Sniffer Biker395's Avatar
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    Hmmm. Having trouble visualizing that. What holds it in place? The skewer?
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    Nashbar has frames onsale...

    The bolt on hanger is an intriguing one, if a bit inelegant. The bolt on the upper part holds it onto the frame, the axel holds it in place.
    I don't think it would work very well because the axel on a wheel with qr's doesn't stick out past the dropout, which the hanger would require.
    A couple other things, I'm assuming that the hanger/dropout is aluminum, so by it being bent more than once your already on borrowed time with it. When it does get bent, and put back into place, is it checked with a hanger alignment gauge? If it's done by eye, you can get it close, but it will never be perfect. And if you have better components, any misalignment will be more noticeable.
    IMHO, new frame, and build this one up as as single speed.
    If you don't know the way, you shouldn't be going there.

  5. #5
    Senior Member George's Avatar
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    I would look at another frame altogether, with a hanger that is replaceable. I was looking at the Scotts, but when I read that about the hanger, it turned me away. Besides that, I could only use Shimano components with it as well. Now I'm using Shimano anyhow. So I guess that's not hard to live with. Good luck.
    George

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    Time for a new frame. That hanger has been compromised too many times. Get a different frame and move all the parts from the Scott to it. Nice project and fun to boot!

  7. #7
    Senior Member tony2v's Avatar
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    Make it a carbon fixie!
    1975 Albert Eisentraut - 2006 Moots Compact: Campy Chorus - 2007 KHS Solo-One -2010 Van Dessel Drag Strip Courage - 2013 Alchemy Xanthus: Campy Record

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
    Hmmm. Having trouble visualizing that. What holds it in place? The skewer?
    My RoadMaster had a Shimano 7-speed rear derailleur (TY21) which includes its own hanger.

    However, I wanted to install a Shimano Acera M360 8-speed rear derailleur as they wrap around the smaller 11 thru 13 teeth cogs much better than the TY21, as I wanted to use an 8-speed 11-32 cassette. But the Acera M360 directly bolts onto an existing hanger, so when removing the TY21 there was nothing for the M360 to bolt to.

    Remedy: I purchased a universal hanger like the one pictured on the left in the picture above your post (from Sunrace). The hanger works great.

    Biker395, there’s a flange around the inside of the circular portion of the hanger (which the picture doesn’t reveal) which fits into the rear drop slot, then the bolt shown in the left picture is tightened to the frame to retain the hanger. The inside flange ensures that the hanger can’t rotate, as it catches within the slotted drop and the skewer (in addition to its retaining bolt) also serves to keep the hanger stationary.

    I made the same upgrade to my friend’s 21-speed Huffy Monaco when he decided to go 24-speed. The Sunrace hanger only costs about $2 and typically works with Shimano rear derailleurs.

    Hope this helps.

  9. #9
    Seat Sniffer Biker395's Avatar
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    Hmmm ... like this?

    Derailleur Hanger.jpg

    I have an update. In spite of the fact the crash was a long time ago, Scott has a crash replacement policy and will sell me a new frame at a reduced cost.
    Proud parent of a happy inner child ...
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    I would look at another frame altogether.
    Me too. At some point you have to accept the reality that you are holding a losing poker hand. All those stop gap measures are doing is to postpone the decision for a few more months.
    My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Blue Belly's Avatar
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    Get a new frame with replaceable dropout. Of Scott will work with you & have a good replacement, do it!

  12. #12
    Time for a change. stapfam's Avatar
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    All of my bikes have a replacable hanger and I have only ever broken one and that was on the Bianchi MTB.Slight problem with this as it was a HYBRID frame. Listed as an FS920 but in fact was a Grizzly adapted to take the 920 bits. None of the Bianchi hangers- and there are plenty of them- would fit this frame as it was a one off. 3 months later and going nowhere and the LBS suggested fitting new drop outs to overcome the problem. I was worried about this on cost but they had just had one done at a cost of less than $100.

    Luckily Bianchi came up trumps as they still had the original drawings and made me one for $10. In fact they made two and sent me both so I still have that as a spare.

    So look around for a Frame repairer that can fit new dropouts at a more sensible price than you have been quoted. And with luck they will have a replacable drop out.
    How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


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  13. #13
    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
    OK, so this is it.

    After a lot of looking around, I bought a Scott CR-1 back in 2008. Light, comfortable and fast. Best of all, it fit me. The only thing I didn't like about it was that the rear derailleur hanger was non-replaceable. But I figured ... 20 years of riding with no crashes ... what could go wrong?

    Well, 3 or 4 weeks after buying it, I blew a front tire descending at about 25 MPH. Broken collarbone, broken ribs, badass road rash. It sucked. What sucked more is that when I finally recovered, I went to replace the rear tire and noted that someone (the shop or the factory) had put a 700x32 tube in a 700x23 wheel and tire. So much for the mystery about how the front tire blew.

    The damage to the bike was about nil ... except (of course) the derailleur hanger got bent.

    I had the hanger bent back to the proper position, and it stayed that way pretty much for two years, when it again needed straightening. It stayed that way for a while, then needed straightening again. And each time it's bent back into position, it's never really totally correct, just close enough. So the bike has never really shifted as well as it should.

    Fed up with that, I contacted Scott to see if it could be fixed. They recommended Calfee, who will happily do it for >$500. Plus $65 for the dropout (Scott only wanted $25 for it), probably nearly $200 for shipping both ways, and extra if I want it to look nice. So we are looking at $700-$800 minimum. And it would be replaced by ... you guessed it ... yet another non-replaceable hanger.

    So here is the question. What would you do? I'm leaning to just chucking it all and buying another frame. Not looking forward to that, though ... because I like the way the CR-1 frame rides, climbs, and fits me.
    When a hanger is bent, and then bent back, it needs to be properly aligned with the frame, frame builders have special tools for this...A STEEL or Ti hanger can be bent back, AL ones can not. The risk with bending an AL one is that it can crack, and you may not notice until it breaks off, and the derailleur goes bouncing around held on only by the cable, until it bounces into the spokes.

  14. #14
    Seat Sniffer Biker395's Avatar
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    Yea, that's the crux of it. I'm tired of having the shifting be acceptable, but not really right, and I'm concerned that one of these days, it will crack, snap off and get tangled up in the spokes. With my luck it would be on a 35 MPH descent.

    The tool they use for the alignment? Seen it each time the alignment was done. It's about the size of an automotive torque wrench, and screws into the dropout. It can then be spun around, and the distance from the wheel should be the same as it's spun around. If it's not, the tool has a nice moment arm to bend the hanger to the point where it IS the same distance throughout the 360 degrees.

    That sounds good in theory, but in practice, Al doesn't bend to place. It bends and snaps back. To bend it to try to align it, you have to bend it MORE than where you want it to be, then when it snaps back at rest, hopefully it is in the right position. So even with good mechanics working on it, it's never been truly right. And on top of that, it seems unwilling to stay aligned.

    I'm going to find a Scott Dealer and try the current CR-1, Solace, and God help me ... maybe even the Addict and see which one I like best.
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  15. #15
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Actually I think you could probably use those derailleur hangers if you laced up some nutted hub in the back. Didn't I remember you taking an interest in Titanium in another thread recently ? This guy wants to unload his Dean El Diente:

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-its-a-puzzler

    Bet you won't have those kinds of problems with that if it's a fit.
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  16. #16
    Let's do a Century jppe's Avatar
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    As much as you ride you need a new frame to resolve the shifting issues. Just make sure the new frame is not so stiff it picks up too much road buzz.
    Ride your Ride!!

  17. #17
    Senior Member Terex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
    Hmmm ... like this?

    Derailleur Hanger.jpg

    I have an update. In spite of the fact the crash was a long time ago, Scott has a crash replacement policy and will sell me a new frame at a reduced cost.
    I had a Scott '06 CR1-SL. Best frame I've ever ridden. Due to a chain failure, I buggered the rear of the bike. Did same thing you're doing. Got a Scott Addict replacement frame for some money. Nice bike, but no CR1-SL. I think a big part was the additional stiffness due to the construction of the hanger. If you're a strong rider, you're going to miss the CR1. For others who may have a non-replaceable hanger (unlikely), you can buy a sacrificial derailleur bolt that will hopefully fail before the hanger/frame unit is damaged beyond repair. The bolt is engineered to break before the hanger/frame. Found this out after my problem.
    "It could be anything. Scrap booking, high-stakes poker, or the Santa Fe lifestyle. Just pick a dead-end and chill out 'till you die."

  18. #18
    Seat Sniffer Biker395's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terex View Post
    I had a Scott '06 CR1-SL. Best frame I've ever ridden. Due to a chain failure, I buggered the rear of the bike. Did same thing you're doing. Got a Scott Addict replacement frame for some money. Nice bike, but no CR1-SL. I think a big part was the additional stiffness due to the construction of the hanger. If you're a strong rider, you're going to miss the CR1. For others who may have a non-replaceable hanger (unlikely), you can buy a sacrificial derailleur bolt that will hopefully fail before the hanger/frame unit is damaged beyond repair. The bolt is engineered to break before the hanger/frame. Found this out after my problem.
    Oh, I know what you mean. I really do love the way the CR1 climbs (to my mind ... stiff pedaling). You stand up on the pedals, and it just accelerated uphill. Best of all, the frame geometry really worked for me, so it was really comfy.

    Most of the roads I ride on are in pretty good shape, so I'm perfectly OK riding Al frame bikes, even long distances. So when picking another bike, particularly carbon (inherently vibration damping), I'm going to focus a little more on climbing ability and a little less on shock absorption.

    Gotta chuckle about your comment about the break away bolts. I'm also a member of the "found this out after my problem" club. Oy.
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  19. #19
    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    If you get another bike, maybe you ought to make a carbon fixie out of this one like tony2v suggested.
    "I never lost a race because my bike was too heavy".......George Mount

  20. #20
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    Does a 2011 Scott Addict R1 have the non-replaceable hanger too?

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    Senior Member Terex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdcoast View Post
    Does a 2011 Scott Addict R1 have the non-replaceable hanger too?
    I don't believe so. My Addict is an '09 and it has a hanger. It is a little soft though, and I'll be replacing it. It's been bent a couple of times in normal handling.
    "It could be anything. Scrap booking, high-stakes poker, or the Santa Fe lifestyle. Just pick a dead-end and chill out 'till you die."

  22. #22
    Senior Member BikeArkansas's Avatar
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    This year I changed to a Scott Addict. A used one, 2008 model. Best frame I have owned, which includes a C'Dale Super Six, a S-Works Tarmac, a Gunnar, an Orbea Onix and curently a Trek Madone 6.5 to go with the Addict. I have not ridden the CR1, but it must be a great bike to compare to the Addict. Climbs well and descends even better. When I know the roads are very rough I ride my Open Pro wheels with 25 tires instead of the Mavic SL wheels.
    I started riding my bike to get healthy. Now I try to stay healthy so I can ride my bike.

  23. #23
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    I found what could be a good deal on a used 2011 Scott Addict R1 and am looking for anything to be concerned with.

  24. #24
    Seat Sniffer Biker395's Avatar
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    Hey, I have an update on this.

    Scott was willing to give me a deal on a replacement frame, but only if I had the receipt. I searched high and wide ... found every receipt for every bike I ever bought ... but I couldn't find it. The shop I bought it from had no record of the sale, and didn't sell Scott bikes anymore, but but they offered to try to get me a replacement frame through their former Scott rep. Unfortunately, he no longer represented them, so that was a dead end. And to be honest, I kinda like the older CR1s (they were redesigned post 2008) anyway.

    I did a lot of searching around and found out that there are people out there with all kinds of fixes for the derailleur hanger problem. One solution is to file down the existing (bent) hanger and screw in another ... like this:



    That looked great to me, but I actually had a chat with someone with a CR1 who had a similar repair, and she wasn't too happy with the result.

    I found a custom carbon fiber shop here in SoCal that offered to do the repair, and disassemble and reassemble the bike for a very reasonable cost (~250), so I decided to give that a try while I shopped around for a replacement frame (lots of drooling there ... oy there are some nice frames).

    I guess the seatstay and chainstay cracked when removing the old hanger, but they were able to repair those cracks. I'm picking it up today.

    This should be interesting. My guess is that the repair won't be the prettiest thing in the world, but as long as it's functional and safe, I'll be happy. And of course, if I see a sweet deal on a replacement frame, I'll grab that.

    Report to follow ...
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  25. #25
    Senior Member NOS88's Avatar
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    Interesting update. I know that for me, I'd never stop thinking about this - that is until the frame was gone. If it were me, I'd be looking for a new frame as close as possible to the ride and fit of the CR-1, but without the (what I consider to be a serious short coming) disadvantage of a non-replaceable rear hanger. I'd just look at it as closing a chapter and moving on to the next one.
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. - S. Wright
    Favorite rides in the stable: Indy Fab CJ Ti - Colnago MXL - S-Works Roubaix - Habanero Team Issue - Jamis Eclipse carbon/831

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