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Thread: What not to do.

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    Senior Member Terex's Avatar
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    What not to do.

    http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/12/...cle-racer.html

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    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Yep, it seems like HGH would be more useful for aging athletes than EPO because of potential age-specific benefits

    Not that I'm condoning it. I won't even take a tylenol.

    I do question why an amateur racing organization even cares, and is it really even any of their business what meds (self-medication or otherwise) the old man is on.

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    Semper Fi, A way of life. qcpmsame's Avatar
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    The Master's Racing Forum has a good discussion about him in the hanging out thread, one of them raced against him regularly, and also had lost a title to him a short while back. Not much sympathy, rightly so in my own thoughts, the usual "he as a nice guy most of the time....." things.

    He isn't the only one in USA Cycling amateur racing to get slapped this year either. I cannot wrap my mind around doping for anything, much less an amateur event, even a national title.

    I remember all the steroid users in power lifting and body building that have died from various side effects back in the late 70's and early 80's when I was power lifting. Made a lasting impression on me, I left the sport and a gym because of the steroid use going on.

    WHY?

    Bill

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    Let's do a Century jppe's Avatar
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    Dave, Dave, Dave...........how stupid you must feel now. Dave was indirectly responsible for me getting into cycling. My brother (who got me interested in riding) and Dave trained and also raced a lot together in the 80's. My brother certainly isn't taking PED's as he is slower than I am now!

    What Dave did was completely wrong so please don't take this the wrong way, but I do find it interesting that at even his age his competitive juices were such that he resorted to those illegal tactics to do whatever it took to stay as competitive as possible. Some folks just have a really hard time understanding that you just can't cheat age. And even to his own admission the stuff didn't even help him...dumb dumb dumb.

    Also as a side, Pete Cannell (was mentioned in the article) was also found to be using PED's a couple years or so ago. He was the record holder for our Time Trials at the Speedway and had set the record during the time he was using. So after his positive test we removed him as the record holder and replaced him with the rider with the next best time.
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    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    I have a prescription for a phd (nitroglycerin). If I'm popping those, I'll be on the phone to 911, not the podium. I have no problem with competitiveness, but I have limits, and no, winning is not everything. I am riding to extend my life and improve the quality of it.
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    Similarly I have a prescription for testosterone injections (once a week) because of a damaged pituitary gland (hypopituitarism)--it is easy to overdo it but contrary to what most people believe it will not make you go faster, but it will improve healing muscles after a ride. I have to take other hormones as well and those also will not improve performances only quality of life!

    It is pure stupidity and of course dangerous for a 62 year old to "juice up!"

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    just keep riding BluesDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    I do question why an amateur racing organization even cares, and is it really even any of their business what meds (self-medication or otherwise) the old man is on.
    None, unless they are interested in promoting fair competition.
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    Semper Fi, A way of life. qcpmsame's Avatar
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    Agreed, BD, same reasoning that brought the promoters of the big Gran Fondo in New York to institute testing last year for their event. They were concerned that the expensive prizes they were offering, high end bikes and such, would bring out the cheaters. it did and one in particular got popped. There was a big discussion thread about him and the testing in the 41 when this happened. Several posters there had rode in events with this guy and he did compete in local organized amateur racing. They all had noted his sudden increase in performance and said they saw this one coming. He said he was caught up in the head rush of being the big dog (no pun or slight towards you Dawg.)

    Bill
    Last edited by qcpmsame; 01-03-14 at 05:46 AM.

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    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    None, unless they are interested in promoting fair competition.
    It may be more fair if they test winners for drugs (or maybe not), but if they want the most fair competition they'd forget about it and let people choose. In any event there is some point where intrusion into personal business is unwarranted. An amateur event checking your body chemistry is over the line to me, and I'm obstinate about keeping drugs out of my system.

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    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    It may be more fair if they test winners for drugs (or maybe not), but if they want the most fair competition they'd forget about it and let people choose. In any event there is some point where intrusion into personal business is unwarranted. An amateur event checking your body chemistry is over the line to me, and I'm obstinate about keeping drugs out of my system.
    I believe your views are in the distinct minority here. Heck, most jobs require that your body chemistries be checked from time to time. As far as intrusion into personal business, that genie got out of the bottle some time ago and doesn't look likely to get stuffed back any time soon.

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    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    I thought that was a very thoughtful article. Here is one of the money quotes:
    “We’ve had other racers test positive, and I’ve been approached by racers who are, let’s just say, enraged,” she said. “You look at them, and you know when people are throwing bicycles at you, or you start to worry that they might whip out a *** and shoot you, you start to wonder if there is more to it than anger management, if it may in fact be some sort of chemical fueling that rage.”

    She also said there has been what seems to be an unusual amount of fist fights in recent years, particularly among masters racers. At one race last year, one middle-aged rider got into a fight with a 15-year-old boy.


    Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/12/...#storylink=cpy
    Ever since I started Androgel I've been beating up on teenagers. Now I know why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    It may be more fair if they test winners for drugs (or maybe not), but if they want the most fair competition they'd forget about it and let people choose. In any event there is some point where intrusion into personal business is unwarranted. An amateur event checking your body chemistry is over the line to me, and I'm obstinate about keeping drugs out of my system.
    In the case of amateur racing, it seems to me the point is moot -- ethically -- in the case of Mr. LeDuc. As far as I'm aware he has been and is a U.S. Cycling licensed racer; a license-holder by definition subscribes to the WADA code (I believe it's a condition of the license). It would seem to me that a natural corollary of this that a U.S. Cycling license-holder can expect, especially at major events, to be tested for conformity to that code and accept the consequences if found in breach of that code. Further, the U.S. National Masters Road Championship is, if I'm not mistaken, a U.S. Cycling-sanctioned event. So however one cuts it, Mr. LeDuc knowingly (by his own admission) violated the WADA code by which he was bound. To his credit, he has accepted the consequences with a minimum of whinging.

    All this is to say nothing about the sheer stupidity, pointlessness, and indeed ridiculousness of 'doping' in amateur sport -- cycling or anything else. One can understand and have a little more sympathy for Mr. LeDuc's motivation than for, say, that of the moron who was caught out at the GFNY a while back, but not much. The latter was simply risible; Mr. LeDuc was at least competing at a serious level in a real race.

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    Semper Fi, A way of life. qcpmsame's Avatar
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    I respectfully disagree with the notion about being testing in Cat 1-5 racing being unfair. Being fair in a competition means applying the set and agreed upon rules equally to all participants. In taking a USA Cycling license you agree to not use prohibited substances listed. Testing for someone using prohibited substances they knew to be so isn't unfair, its following the rules fairly. If someone doesn't want to be tested don't compete, you know the rules when you take the license and enter the race. Or find a cycling league or event that is dumb enough to allow PEDS and such to just run rampant (spare me the remarks about the UCI and Verbruggen/McQuaid, please.)

    Bill

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    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    I believe your views are in the distinct minority here. Heck, most jobs require that your body chemistries be checked from time to time. As far as intrusion into personal business, that genie got out of the bottle some time ago and doesn't look likely to get stuffed back any time soon.
    Minority of one most likely. I grit my teeth and do it for a job, when it's reasonable in the nature of the job because of security concerns. Other jobs I might refuse, same for polygraph, with absolutely nothing to hide. It all feels like a frog boiling, turning it up a little at a time - what does it hurt to give up just a trivial bit of personal liberties right?

    I think you can condemn the cheaters' actions and at the same time draw a line at intrusive enforcement.

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    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post

    I think you can condemn the cheaters' actions and at the same time draw a line at intrusive enforcement.
    OK. How?

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    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    OK. How?
    You mean how would it work?

    The simplest way would be removing the restrictions, as long as the chemicals are legal. Everyone would have the same choices, the same opportunity. I have the feeling that that's probably not what you're looking for.

    So if the performance enhancing drugs are illegal, have law enforcement pursue it and at least that way our civil rights are protected. To some degree.

    OK, you want to keep the prohibitions in the licenses and agreements when people compete. If a cheat wins he has committed fraud and would be liable in civil court. Collect your evidence, take them to court and prove your case. If you cannot show a preponderance of evidence you don't win, and don't deserve to, just as with any other civil case.

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    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    Ick.

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    just keep riding BluesDawg's Avatar
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    I find the drug testing at jobs more of an intrusion as they can detect traces of substances long after they have stopped having undesirable effects with regard to job performance or safety.
    The more you ride your bike, the less your ass will hurt.

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    Senior Member Bikey Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluesDawg View Post
    I find the drug testing at jobs more of an intrusion as they can detect traces of substances long after they have stopped having undesirable effects with regard to job performance or safety.
    Certain legitimate and needed meds will show as illegal drugs as well in testing for jobs, such as meds for seizures/epilepsy.
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    Seat Sniffer Biker395's Avatar
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    This guy been doping long before he was old enough to post in this forum.... You really believe his own admission?
    Last edited by velocycling; 01-06-14 at 04:57 PM.

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    Senior Member JerrySTL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuteCommando View Post
    I have a prescription for a phd (nitroglycerin). If I'm popping those, I'll be on the phone to 911, not the podium. I have no problem with competitiveness, but I have limits, and no, winning is not everything. I am riding to extend my life and improve the quality of it.
    Believe it or not, nitroglycerin was used as a PED somewhere around the 1930s. The thought was that it opened up blood vessels so the blood would flow better. I had to use the stuff once and had one heck of a headache from it.

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    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocycling View Post
    This guy been doping long before he was old enough to post in this forum.... You really believe his own admission?
    No
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    Trek 500 Kid Zinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    It may be more fair if they test winners for drugs (or maybe not), but if they want the most fair competition they'd forget about it and let people choose. In any event there is some point where intrusion into personal business is unwarranted. An amateur event checking your body chemistry is over the line to me, and I'm obstinate about keeping drugs out of my system.
    Problem is that EPO is a dangerous PED and that's not an exaggeration. Unless you constantly are monitoring hematocrit it's possible for your blood to thicken, when you aren't active, to the extent that you can die in your sleep from a heart attack (which has happened to a number of pros when EPO first came on the pro scene).

    Having to have a doctor or machine to measure hematocrit takes the sport completely out of the realm of what should be amateur sports where teens compete. And this is not the only case where an amateur got busted for PEDs. So if I had a kid into the sport it would be fine with me if testing were common.

    Personally I can much better understand pros doing this for big money, especially when the atmosphere pressured riders into going along with the program. But to do this in the amateurs is just nuts. If I were benevolent dictator I'd be dealing out lifetime bans for bringing this kind of PED into amateur sports.

    This old fool must have had to turn somebody else over for this to get only a two year ban.
    Last edited by Zinger; 01-06-14 at 08:23 PM.
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