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Old 01-14-14, 10:21 PM   #26
NOS88
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Got the windbreaker back today. She and her husband knocked on the front door. Got a thank you & hand shake from husband. Got a thank you & a kiss on the cheek from her. They seem like a nice couple. They usually ride together, but he was working on a kitchen remodel & didn't go out with her on that ride.
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Old 01-14-14, 10:32 PM   #27
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Well, that's pretty nice. Shows you the world hasn't all gone to heck.

scott s.
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Old 01-14-14, 10:56 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
Ice floats - it would be on top of the water, not under it. She must've run over something else.
I'm guessing you don't have ice during the winter where you are.

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Old 01-14-14, 10:58 PM   #29
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Old 01-15-14, 12:50 AM   #30
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I'm guessing you don't have ice during the winter where you are.

J.
Well that's true, but I grew up in Iowa so it's not like ice is a mystery.
What I haven't seen is standing liquid water over ice... I'm happy to be corrected, but I'm not convinced that's what happened here.
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Old 01-15-14, 06:01 AM   #31
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Glad the jacket got returned and your good deed recognized by them, sounds like a stand up couple.

Scott, as the ice melts the water is on the top, the ice is anchored by its infiltration into the crevices of the road surface.

Bill
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Old 01-15-14, 06:27 AM   #32
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..... I stayed and yelled out the warning "BLACK ICE - go towards the right (where sun had been shining). Riders just ignored me and one after one kept riding over the ice and slipping.
I often read of people who shout and from moving vehicles.... and often wonder. Doesn't the Doppler effect apply. Were you ignored... or just not understood?
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Old 01-15-14, 06:44 AM   #33
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There is nothing slicker than ice with a layer of water on top of it..
Ya, frictionless surface and totally unforgiving.
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Old 01-15-14, 07:46 AM   #34
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Well that's true, but I grew up in Iowa so it's not like ice is a mystery.
What I haven't seen is standing liquid water over ice... I'm happy to be corrected, but I'm not convinced that's what happened here.
When the ground is frozen hard, the ice mechanically bounds to the pavement and pretty much won't let go until melted from above or the ground thaws beneath it. That happens often when we have super hard freezes like we've had this year (Minnesota). If, for example, it thaws a bit and water collects in a low area on dry pavement then there is a hard freeze that ice will be there until spring. I have a patch of that in my driveway and it's pretty much impossible to chip up, it will get covered with water and it won't float up either. It's not just laying on top, it's bonded. Happens all the time around here.

So, if the ground is hard frozen and there is some event that puts water on top (rain, melting, etc) you will have water pooled on top of the ice. Since the water if pretty close to freezing anyhow and the ground is well below freezing, the ice doesn't float up or melt quickly. In point of fact, it's much more likely to wind up with thicker ice than it is for thinner ice.

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Old 01-15-14, 08:06 AM   #35
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[QUOTE=DiabloScott;16412157]Well that's true, but I grew up in Iowa so it's not like ice is a mystery.
What I haven't seen is standing liquid water over ice... I'm happy to be corrected, but I'm not convinced that's what happened here.[/QUOTE]

Standing next to the pooled water you could actually see the ice. It was frosted, find of like you used to see on ice build up in freezers before they were defrostless. Patch was not all that large. If she had been two feet to the left, she would have missed it.
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Old 01-15-14, 11:14 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
I often read of people who shout and from moving vehicles.... and often wonder. Doesn't the Doppler effect apply. Were you ignored... or just not understood?
Let's see... I was standing to the left (the rider's right)waving my arms and shouting directly at them "Black Ice..." and then I was waving to go right (close to where I was standing)... since this was a fairly steep grade (about 8 - 10% at that particular spot - the paved section has some grades of 15%), the riders were probably not going more than 3 - 8 miles as hours and I was standing still... you think they could not hear or understand me?
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Old 01-15-14, 01:38 PM   #37
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..... the riders were probably not going more than 3 - 8 miles as hours and I was standing still... you think they could not hear or understand me?
I just don't know. Do you think they just didn't believe you? I mean really.... do you look that dishonest that "go right" would seem like an evil trick?

I did a little searching to try to find the details of Buys Ballot experiment.... he put the band on a train car and had the conductor run the train back and forth. That experiment demonstrated the Doppler Effect on "sound" waves. But the trains speed isn't recorded (that I found).... although I don't think trains hit high speeds in short runs back in 1845.

Looking at this YouTube video... I think yeah maybe... if your words were at a somewhat higher pitch and spoken somewhat quickly as the riders approached you at 8MPH... they might not have been able to decipher your words.

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Old 01-15-14, 03:07 PM   #38
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I don't think riding though water in winter is a good idea.Potholes scare me,thanks for the heads up on ice too.learning by mistakes is rough?being 12 miles away in winter she must be an experienced rider ,surprised at her judgement.kind of you to help out.
That's why riding through standing water isn't ever a good idea, even when it's 90. Potholes and other hidden road defects under the water.
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Old 01-15-14, 10:25 PM   #39
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I don't think riding though water in winter is a good idea.Potholes scare me,thanks for the heads up on ice too.learning by mistakes is rough?being 12 miles away in winter she must be an experienced rider ,surprised at her judgement.kind of you to help out.
I don't think riding through water is a good idea any time, especially if you can't see the bottom. There could be anything under there, a big pot hole, a washout that is a few feet deep, a hunk of scrap metal with a razor sharp edge. In winter you can add ice, and the slipperiest material known to man is not Teflon (as many people think), it's rubber on wet ice.
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Old 01-16-14, 04:48 AM   #40
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Water can cover ice if the ice is attached to the ground.

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That's why riding through standing water isn't ever a good idea, even when it's 90. Potholes and other hidden road defects under the water.
Just this past Saturday while walking, my daughter slipped on ice at the bottom of a puddle about 1-2 inches deep.

I once went down hard on a pothole that was hidden by a seemingly shallow puddle, and nicely tore both my rain jacket and pants. Subsequently, I wrote this sugestion for a Rule of the Commutinati:

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As I was commuting this dark, torrential rain-swept, and leaf-strewn ride this morning, I recalled this rule for your consideration:

“If you cannot directly see the Road surface (due to a reflecting puddle, a pile of leaves, or whatever), a pothole may lurk.”

I learned this rule from two misfortunes, one personal, and one vicarious but fatal. …

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Old 02-04-14, 10:57 AM   #41
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nos88

At least you were a real gentleman and gave her your windbreaker!
There is hope for this world!
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