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Old 02-16-14, 09:14 AM   #51
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I'm not scare of technology if it can be proven to be better, cheaper or the same cost, and very reliable, electric shifting may shift faster which I've read proof that it does, but it does and will cost more in the long run even after production supposedly will make it cheaper, but due to inflation alone plus also due to technology costs you won't see any reduction in price. This same argument about cost was done with integrated shifting too, yet to replace a failed or broken Dura Ace 9000 integrated shifter cost an average of $349, but the Dura Ace DI is around $749...over twice as much! If a Dura Ace rear integrated derailleur goes bad it will cost you $280 whereas the DI will cost $760, and a front Dura Ace derail is about $140 while the DI is $470, and a new battery is $150 (or $200 for the internal tube bat) which will probably be needed about once every 3 years. The argument about those prices on tech dropping won't be more than maybe $100 because as time goes by inflation goes up and you never win that argument, a bike frame is different in that there are lots of Chinese factories doing it for cheap but there are only a couple of factories doing components.

This is why it's not good to buy a bike with this fancy stuff on it (unless like I said before money is no object) because the manufactures suck you into getting a bike with a huge reduction in the cost of the components knowing darn right well when replacement time comes you'll be paying through the nose...they now have you hooked and are reeling in the suckers.
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Old 02-16-14, 09:29 AM   #52
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I'm thinking there may be a generational schism here. I say this as a guy who last week finally discarded his flip phone for a smart phone. DI may not motivate some of us but I think it will catch on with younger riders. I totally agree that the bike mags will hype electronic shifting and that only makes me feel that it will be big. Anyone who lives in a consumer culture knows what advertising can do to you. As you point out they hype it because it sells product. And, IMO they will sell this too.
I'm old enough to have started racing on a bike with friction shifting and pedals with toe clips / straps. When Look came out with clipless pedals, it didn't take me very long to switch over after being left behind at the starting line in criteriums fumbling with the straps as the guys with clipless were already on their way. When STI came out it didn't take me long to ditch my downtube shifters so that I could shift when sprinting without taking my hands off the bars. Non-competitive riders really don't need much of this expensive technology, just like they don't need superlight CF frames, but experienced riders can enjoy and appreciate it. I have no doubt that someday I will embrace electronic shifting when it becomes more mainstream and affordable.
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Old 02-16-14, 09:41 AM   #53
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I'm not scare of technology if it can be proven to be better, cheaper or the same cost, and very reliable, electric shifting may shift faster which I've read proof that it does, but it does and will cost more in the long run even after production supposedly will make it cheaper, but due to inflation alone plus also due to technology costs you won't see any reduction in price. This same argument about cost was done with integrated shifting too, yet to replace a failed or broken Dura Ace 9000 integrated shifter cost an average of $349, but the Dura Ace DI is around $749...over twice as much! If a Dura Ace rear integrated derailleur goes bad it will cost you $280 whereas the DI will cost $760, and a front Dura Ace derail is about $140 while the DI is $470, and a new battery is $150 (or $200 for the internal tube bat) which will probably be needed about once every 3 years. The argument about those prices on tech dropping won't be more than maybe $100 because as time goes by inflation goes up and you never win that argument, a bike frame is different in that there are lots of Chinese factories doing it for cheap but there are only a couple of factories doing components.

This is why it's not good to buy a bike with this fancy stuff on it (unless like I said before money is no object) because the manufactures suck you into getting a bike with a huge reduction in the cost of the components knowing darn right well when replacement time comes you'll be paying through the nose...they now have you hooked and are reeling in the suckers.
The thing is prices are already coming down, since DI2 has migrated to Ultegra, which is about half the price of Dura Ace. No doubt it will eventually further migrate to 105, which will cost even less. My first tube color television cost me the equivalent of $2500 today, and today an equivalent LCD/LED TV would cost about $200. I think electronic shifting will succeed because it is good technology, just like indexed shifting succeeded because it was good.
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Old 02-16-14, 11:39 AM   #54
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You could get this on sale........http://www.competitivecyclist.com/or...Y0NhdDEwMDU2NQ
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Old 02-16-14, 11:46 AM   #55
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Rear DI derailleur.......http://www.competitivecyclist.com/sh...NjQ2F0MTAwMDg4

$340 on sale for $170.
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Old 02-16-14, 12:45 PM   #56
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As I recall when asked about the new index shifting one of the mechanics on a pro team said most pros would never need it because they "already knew how to shift." Back then that was pretty much my take on it too.
Me too. I remember when I bought my first index shifting bike I checked to be sure I could convert to friction on the fly. I also remember thinking during my first ride "What have I been missing?"

Skipping to today, however, I still have a road bike with full time friction shifting, my recumbents can still be converted to friction shifting on the fly, and I greatly prefer friction shifting for front derailleurs.

Some of that's by coincidence because it's just what the hardware does, but I'm still not yet willing to pay extra for electronic shifting. Recumbents, however, are a technology that I can embrace.
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Old 02-16-14, 02:15 PM   #57
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To me the introduction of an external power source (Di2's battery) to the 100% human powered bicycle is the can-of-worms. It means next we'll have batteries and motors as part of the drive system. Even if the battery's power can only be charged by braking. I realize the elegant simplicity of the bicycle has been gone for years with STI shifters and modern derailleurs, but to allow batteries, is to invite-in the devil himself

BTW--> To the OP: Buy the Trek Domane. No matter what carbon is the way to go. I've owned aluminum, aluminum/carbon mixed, and full-carbon frames and carbon is the best ride by far.

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Old 02-16-14, 02:27 PM   #58
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The thing is prices are already coming down, since DI2 has migrated to Ultegra, which is about half the price of Dura Ace. No doubt it will eventually further migrate to 105, which will cost even less. My first tube color television cost me the equivalent of $2500 today, and today and equivalent LCD/LED TV would cost about $200. I thing electronic shifting will succeed because it is good technology, just like indexed shifting succeeded because it was good.
Don't forget, cycling is a hobby, where something is a hobby like golf or cycling the industry believes we have deep pockets, they will not bring the price down a whole lot, you may find Shimano 105 D12 some day but it will be more expensive to repair than even today's STI Dura Ace will be. TV is quite a bit different, they want TV's in the hands of as many people as they can because there is a lot of ad time on TV and ads sell product thus the TV is a selling tool for corporations thus you will always be able to get a cheap TV new because it benefits the marketing to make sure that happens. And back in the day all the circuit boards were soldered by hand and picture tubes were expensive to make, so yes in today's dollars it would cost roughly $2,500 due to inflation and due to the intensive hand labor that went into them, nowadays all the circuit boards are stamped and LCD or Plasma, or LED screens are way cheaper to make than picture tubes. I have several tube powered radios and an amp, I can go online and get tubes but those tubes are much more expensive than buying a integrated circuit that would do the same thing, why? mass production? no, tubes are simply more expensive to make even when they were mass making them. The same is true with full size transistors, it's cheaper to make a integrated circuit than 30 transistors that would do the same thing. However one forgets something about all this technology, consumer quality transistors are much more reliable than consumer quality IC chips, but with transistors you are limited as to how small you can build something to hold them and they consume more electricity...though not that much more. Anyway 2,500 for old school tv to buy today example you gave is an excellent argument as to why D12 systems will not drop a whole lot in price especially today with looming double digit inflation coming.

I hate to say this but old school racers on downtube friction systems were not slower than their counterparts today, what's that you scream? Take a look at the 1963 TDF average mph vs 2013 average mph and you'll find only a 1.3 mph gain BUT about a 400 mile decrease over that time period! So in reality the old school racers were faster than today riders with all the fumbling with their pedals and gears, and riding non aero heavy bikes and wheels...LOL!!
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Old 02-16-14, 04:39 PM   #59
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As I recall when asked about the new index shifting one of the mechanics on a pro team said most pros would never need it because they "already knew how to shift." Back then that was pretty much my take on it too.
I'm the guy who took the index plate out of his downtube shifter, on his new bike, and threw it in the ditch only about a couple of blocks from the LBS where I bought it. I'm still riding that bike with friction.

I'm waiting for combined electrical over hydraulic shifting before a change my Luddite ways.

Seriously I wouldn't mind trying brifters on a newer ride someday (probably steel) but it ain't in my budget for now.
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Old 02-16-14, 05:17 PM   #60
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Old 02-16-14, 08:38 PM   #61
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I'm the guy who took the index plate out of his downtube shifter, on his new bike, and threw it in the ditch only about a couple of blocks from the LBS where I bought it. I'm still riding that bike with friction.

I'm waiting for combined electrical over hydraulic shifting before a change my Luddite ways.

Seriously I wouldn't mind trying brifters on a newer ride someday (probably steel) but it ain't in my budget for now.
No need to wait for the electrical over hydraulic stuff, CVT is on the way in about 10 to 15 years tops, when the weight comes down and the price comes more into line it will rush onto the marketplace by storm, then you won't even have to shift anymore. Hallelujah! It'll be a glorious day for you cyclists who swear by D12...not for me though. See: http://www.fallbrooktech.com/
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Old 02-16-14, 09:12 PM   #62
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No need to wait for the electrical over hydraulic stuff, CVT is on the way in about 10 to 15 years tops, when the weight comes down and the price comes more into line it will rush onto the marketplace by storm, then you won't even have to shift anymore. Hallelujah! It'll be a glorious day for you cyclists who swear by D12...not for me though. See: http://www.fallbrooktech.com/
That's what I get for kidding around.....My nightmare come true

That's an interesting new turn on variable speed transmissions though and I'm wondering how it might be applied to both manual and CNC machine tools as well as automotive.

As far as human power goes I'd like to keep my option of choosing my poison, so to speak. About the time this comes out in cycling I'll be about ready to upgrade to brifters if I'm still kicking pedals.
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Old 02-16-14, 09:25 PM   #63
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So I've decided to get a new bike this spring
...snip...
I don't know much about the Veloce group on the Bianchi, but that bike just looks pretty. I'd also consider these same carbon bikes with the 105 group as it seems you get a lot of bang for your buck with it. I just don't want my new bike to have older tech on it. This will probably be the last bike I'll purchase. I'm not thin skinned so tell me what you really think!

Tom
I like my Veloce 10 speed shifters. The hoods are really comfortable, and the shifting works great. However, Campagnolo is getting to be somewhat unusual on new bikes at most of my local bike stores.

All these bikes have the new style shallow drop "compact" bars. They fit me way better than the old ergo bars. I can ride comfortably in the drops instead of just using them on downhills and headwinds.

~~~~~

I had the same plan, "this will the last bike I'll ever buy" in my mid 50s. So I got a little nicer bike. But now I'm thinking about two new bikes!
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Old 02-17-14, 02:52 AM   #64
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May I suggest this one :http://www.racycles.com/road/colnago...10-mapei-frame
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Old 02-17-14, 03:37 AM   #65
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Another one of my favor http://dutchandwolf.co.uk/products/f...-mapei-edition
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Old 02-17-14, 10:25 AM   #66
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Thanks mapeiboy. Neither of those choices would ever pass muster with the boss.

Tom
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Old 02-17-14, 10:29 AM   #67
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I like my Veloce 10 speed shifters. The hoods are really comfortable, and the shifting works great. However, Campagnolo is getting to be somewhat unusual on new bikes at most of my local bike stores.

All these bikes have the new style shallow drop "compact" bars. They fit me way better than the old ergo bars. I can ride comfortably in the drops instead of just using them on downhills and headwinds.

~~~~~

I had the same plan, "this will the last bike I'll ever buy" in my mid 50s. So I got a little nicer bike. But now I'm thinking about two new bikes!
rm-rf Thanks so much for the input. I figure this will be my last bike too, which is why I'm willing to spend a little more for a nicer bike, to me anyway. I like those shallow drop bars too. I'm going to try out that Veloce equipped bike. We're blessed with a plethora of dealers in the NY metro and outlying areas.

There are 3 really good shops fairly close to home.

Tom
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Old 02-17-14, 09:04 PM   #68
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That's what I get for kidding around.....My nightmare come true

That's an interesting new turn on variable speed transmissions though and I'm wondering how it might be applied to both manual and CNC machine tools as well as automotive.

As far as human power goes I'd like to keep my option of choosing my poison, so to speak. About the time this comes out in cycling I'll be about ready to upgrade to brifters if I'm still kicking pedals.
A nightmare for true cyclists like you and me, but most Americans will embrace their automatic CVT transmission bikes as soon as the weight comes down just as they've embraced the electronic shifting, and all for the same reasons that automatic cars in America far outsell manual cars while the opposite it true in Europe...gee I wonder who the real drivers are?
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Old 02-18-14, 02:07 PM   #69
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Eh...indexed shifting is okay. I have it on two of my bikes. In reality, indexing is more critical on the MTB than it is on a road bike, because more of the shifts are under changing, unforeseen terrain conditions that would be ridiculous if found on a paved road...
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Old 03-26-14, 05:11 PM   #70
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An update. The LBS where I'm going to buy my new bike is having their annual spring sale and the deals are pretty sweet. So I'm probably going to buy the bike this weekend. I've ridden the Cannondale Synapse carbon Ultegra and the Trek Domane 5.2. Both of these bikes are mostly Ultegra 6800, including the crankset on the Trek. (The Cannondale has the FSA SLK lite, BB30a). I spent about 15 minutes on each. They both felt very smooth, shifted well, and braked well. They were both very comfortable and seemed to fit me well. I'd love either of these bikes. On Saturday I will ride the Bianchi Intenso Ultegra, which is now available in celeste as well as black. While mostly Ultegra, this bike has an FSA Gossamer megaexo crankset, and reparto corse brakes.

The Bianchi is several hundred dollars cheaper than the Trek and the Cannondale, I guess due to lesser brakes, crankset, and probably wheels. I hope when I test ride the Bianchi I like it as much as the other two. I don't know if it's my Italian heritage but I've always had a jones for Bianchi. And the Celeste just seals the deal. So if the Bianchi fits me well, it may be coming home with me. I'm lucky enough that this bike shop carries these three brands, as well as many others.

Anyway, while the Trek and Cannondale have lifetime frame warranties, the Bianchi's is only 5 years. Would this be a deal breaker for any of you guys? Should I even take this disparity into account?



Thanks,
Tom

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Old 03-27-14, 03:17 AM   #71
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An update. The LBS where I'm going to buy my new bike is having their annual spring sale and the deals are pretty sweet. So I'm probably going to buy the bike this weekend. I've ridden the Cannondale Synapse carbon Ultegra and the Trek Domane 5.2. Both of these bikes are mostly Ultegra 6800, including the crankset on the Trek. (The Cannondale has the FSA SLK lite, BB30a). I spent about 15 minutes on each. They both felt very smooth, shifted well, and braked well. They were both very comfortable and seemed to fit me well. I'd love either of these bikes. On Saturday I will ride the Bianchi Intenso Ultegra, which is now available in celeste as well as black. While mostly Ultegra, this bike has an FSA Gossamer megaexo crankset, and reparto corse brakes.

The Bianchi is several hundred dollars cheaper than the Trek and the Cannondale, I guess due to lesser brakes, crankset, and probably wheels. I hope when I test ride the Bianchi I like it as much as the other two. I don't know if it's my Italian heritage but I've always had a jones for Bianchi. And the Celeste just seals the deal. So if the Bianchi fits me well, it may be coming home with me. I'm lucky enough that this bike shop carries these three brands, as well as many others.

Anyway, while the Trek and Cannondale have lifetime frame warranties, the Bianchi's is only 5 years. Would this be a deal breaker for any of you guys? Should I even take this disparity into account?



Thanks,
Tom
I hate to say this but to get a failure handled under warranty say 30 years down the road would take an act of God! They'll say you caused it, or fatigued caused it; then in 30 years bike will have probably changed and you'll get a sub par bike IF they agree to replace it. I bought Treks 2nd highest level bike in 1984, if by some odd chance the brazing lets go for example, what do you think they're going to replace the bike with? Their 2nd highest carbon bike? No way, I would probably have to settle for some cheap ass aluminum bike! There are a lot more excuses that can be made not to cover a carbon bike under warranty then there is with a steel bike too. Most warranty issues will occur within the first 3 months anyways, once you get past that point and the years roll by you won't get any warranty service satisfaction.

In summary if you like the Bianche get it and not worry about the warranty.
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Old 03-27-14, 04:44 AM   #72
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I hate to say this but to get a failure handled under warranty say 30 years down the road would take an act of God! They'll say you caused it, or fatigued caused it; then in 30 years bike will have probably changed and you'll get a sub par bike IF they agree to replace it. I bought Treks 2nd highest level bike in 1984, if by some odd chance the brazing lets go for example, what do you think they're going to replace the bike with? Their 2nd highest carbon bike? No way, I would probably have to settle for some cheap ass aluminum bike! There are a lot more excuses that can be made not to cover a carbon bike under warranty then there is with a steel bike too. Most warranty issues will occur within the first 3 months anyways, once you get past that point and the years roll by you won't get any warranty service satisfaction.

In summary if you like the Bianche get it and not worry about the warranty.
Good advice, thanks. I can't wait to ride the Bianchi this weekend. LBS is discounting most 2014 bikes about 15% . Maybe they'll make me an offer I can't refuse!

Tom
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Old 03-27-14, 04:54 AM   #73
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You're italian and you're thinking about buying a trek or 'dale instead of a bianchi?

Fuggedaboutit!
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Old 03-27-14, 09:17 AM   #74
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FWIW...my Masi came with an FSA crank and the bolt kept backing out on rides. This even after the LBS "fixed" it a couple times. On one of the forums here some mentioned that it was not uncommon for FSA cranks to do this. OTOH my gu's Fuji came with one that did not have this problem. But, it's left me reluctant to consider FSA cranks. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced or heard of this.
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Old 03-27-14, 09:37 AM   #75
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You're italian and you're thinking about buying a trek or 'dale instead of a bianchi?

Fuggedaboutit!
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