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Old 07-23-14, 01:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
Stand by the side of a road for a while and pay attention. Motorists do indeed tend to travel in groups. Count the number of motorists who are more than the recommended 2-4 seconds behind the vehicle in front of them. Better yet, go get some of the local traffic speed surveys from your area and look at the difference between the total number of vehicles and the number of cohorts (group leaders). They may not know each other and it may be informal, much like many groups of cyclists, but they do tend to drive in packs. Basic driver training involves teaching new drivers about this behavior and the risks associated with it since it represents most vehicles on the road.
Yup. A book on expert driving I read years ago refers to those as "wolfpacks." I didn't realize you were defining "groups" to include anyone in your vicinity as opposed to someone you were trying to stay in contact with.

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As far as those motorists in SoCal currently stopping at stop signs: well, things must have changed since I was last there. The term "Hollywood stop" came about for a reason. There was also quite a bit of press coverage about Los Angeles removing its camera enforcement for red light runners a couple years back because of so many complaints by those who were running the red light to turn right on a red light without stopping. I'm not buying your story that motorists actually stop at stop signs in significantly greater percentages than cyclists; my experience is that people ride like they drive.
I agree that motorists run stop signs a lot. And when they do, they are a much bigger hazard. But we'll have to agree to disagree on the percentage of motorists who do it versus cyclists.

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However, my real point is that you are grouping all cyclists and judging them based on the behavior of some individuals. At the same time, you do not do the same for motorists or pedestrians. Why the special treatment? In the political arena, the folks who do this generally use it to rationalize their opposition to equitable treatment of cyclists (See Rob Ford before he was an infamous mayor). I'm reminded of the first words out of the mouths of oh-so-many scofflaw motorists who have caused me to take evasive action while cycling. For some reason many of these folks say, "I'm a cyclist" as though that gives them some sort of special standing. (I generally point out that when one is driving a car one is a motorist.)
What "group" are you suggesting I was referring to? If you're referring to that I noted that they were wearing kits, it was merely a factual observation. I have a kit myself and wear it too. If you're referring to the fact that they were headed to that "Pier" riding group, I stand by my assertion. Are they all asshats? I didn't say so. I said that the ones that passed me were.

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Road users are individuals. Each operator makes his or her own decisions, for better or worse. If you want to see it otherwise, that's your right. However, it seems odd to view some road users as individuals and others as representatives of their entire group. I'm curious as to what is behind that way of thinking.
I don't think I did. But you appear to have assumed that I was doing so, based upon your experiences with other people and their comments. Which is to say, you are engaging in the same way of thinking.

And I'm not criticizing you for that. As human beings, we observe, we try to identify patterns and relationships between events, and try to make sense of what we see. That's a useful survival tactic, as it allows us to shortcut through a lot of analysis when there isn't time (e.g. guys riding in kits have been rude to me, so I should expect a stranger approaching in a kit to be rude). It has it's benefit and pitfalls (among them, all kinds of nefarious discrimination for nonsensical reasons) but it is what it is.
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Old 07-23-14, 02:15 PM   #27
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I'm reminded of the first words out of the mouths of oh-so-many scofflaw motorists who have caused me to take evasive action while cycling. For some reason many of these folks say, "I'm a cyclist" as though that gives them some sort of special standing.
I just want to chime in to this point for a humor break. The one person who said the above quote to me after pulling out of a driveway and cutting me off was a ~300lb woman in compact car. I yelled at her, she said I usually bike to work. I think I stuttered out a really?!

A question, why do so many larger women drive compact or subcompact cars?
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Old 07-23-14, 02:39 PM   #28
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Last year's STP a bunch of us were waiting at a red light and an oncoming car got the green to turn left in front of us. Just as he's turning a STP jersey wearing rider blew past us and if the car's driver didn't jam on its brakes the cyclist would have been a hood ornament. We yelled at him, the driver yelled, he gave the driver the finger and kept going. I think it was the middle digit that bugged me so I chased him down, caught him in 4 blocks at a stoplight. He was like "Who me?" So I read him the riot act for at least block straight so every rider within 150' could hear me (and I've a Voice). He eventually shut up, knowing that he'd been had. Best I could do his turn his number ( I told him that would happen) into the STP organizers and demand they dump asshats like that. Then again, just 2 hours earlier I saw a middle digit nearly result in a street fight between a jacked up STP rider and a jacked up pickup driver that laid on the horn. Oh well.
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Old 07-23-14, 03:22 PM   #29
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Over the years I too have seen this type of riding. I know it will draw fire, but the fact remains that the kitted out roadies with the $5000 racing bikes and hundreds of dollars of kit seem to think laws dont apply to them. What I find a hoot is the fact that a good percentage of them are only pretend racer boyz.
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Old 07-24-14, 12:24 AM   #30
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The only time I pass on the right is when somebody is on the left with his stereo ear plugs in and can't hear me hollering at him......only once recently. Yeah that's rude and dangerous especially when going that fast.
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Old 07-24-14, 08:01 AM   #31
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I just want to chime in to this point for a humor break. The one person who said the above quote to me after pulling out of a driveway and cutting me off was a ~300lb woman in compact car. I yelled at her, she said I usually bike to work. I think I stuttered out a really?!

A question, why do so many larger women drive compact or subcompact cars?
A woman gets depressed. She eats a lot. Her husband gets unhappy. She eats even more. Her husband leaves her for a skinny chick twenty years younger. She gets really fat and hires a crap divorce lawyer. She gets taken to the cleaners. All she can afford on the salary she makes at the Waffle House is a subcompact.
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Old 07-24-14, 08:23 AM   #32
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Joeyduck you have a thing for large ladies, that's why you pass on the right, to get a good look.
Stop passing on the right!
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Old 07-24-14, 08:36 AM   #33
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Life is short. No use stressing out over something one can't control. Time for another ride.
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Old 07-24-14, 08:45 AM   #34
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It's quite normal for people to be bothered by others that do things differently than themselves. Just do what we think is best, let others go if possible.
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Old 07-24-14, 09:04 AM   #35
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I think that type of behavior has to do with personality and not what their speed is relative to others. Nor their kit or type of bikes.

On the Greenways it's middle-aged guys on hybrids and youngsters on hard-tails. When I first started and was getting passed by them, a lot, the selfish behavior was flustering and I just tried to stay out of their way. Now that I never get passed by those sorts, they still behave the same way. Never slowing, never yielding, top speed when they should be stopped etc. Put them on the road on racing bikes I'm sure they'd act the same.
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Old 07-24-14, 09:30 AM   #36
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Over the years I too have seen this type of riding. I know it will draw fire, but the fact remains that the kitted out roadies with the $5000 racing bikes and hundreds of dollars of kit seem to think laws dont apply to them. What I find a hoot is the fact that a good percentage of them are only pretend racer boyz.
I find the complete opposite.
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This sport doles out whoopings quite liberally. All reasonable people are quickly turned away. Those with unreasonable amounts of perseverance stick around, get faster, and learn to be the doler of whoopings rather than the dolee.
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Old 07-24-14, 09:43 AM   #37
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It's quite normal for people to be bothered by others that do things differently than themselves. Just do what we think is best, let others go if possible.
That's just it. I don't mind ... in fact, LIKE the fact that that people do things differently. I'm a bit of a contrarian my myself, as I'm sure a lot of us cycling kooks are. And the fact that it's rude, dangerous or what not is also something I can deal with. I don't like it, but heck ... there are a lot of things I don't like. What frosts me (and again, this is likely a personality flaw on my part) is when I can't make any sense of it. Joeyduck's comments and questions were actually helpful.

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A woman gets depressed. She eats a lot. Her husband gets unhappy. She eats even more. Her husband leaves her for a skinny chick twenty years younger. She gets really fat and hires a crap divorce lawyer. She gets taken to the cleaners. All she can afford on the salary she makes at the Waffle House is a subcompact.
Smartass.

I love Waffle House. I wish they had 'em here.

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I think that type of behavior has to do with personality and not what their speed is relative to others. Nor their kit or type of bikes.
No doubt. But consider this ... Are those with that personality more likely to buy the $5,000 bike and $300 kit?

You know what I think? I think I think too much. Trsnrtr has it right:

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Old 07-24-14, 09:48 AM   #38
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No doubt. But consider this ... Are those with that personality more likely to buy the $5,000 bike and $300 kit?
We need data.

I could hire my son to sit at a blind curve on the MUP and count asshats. If you could arrange a similar data collection at the worst of your intersections. Then we could compare.
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Old 07-24-14, 09:56 AM   #39
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We need data.

I could hire my son to sit at a blind curve on the MUP and count asshats. If you could arrange a similar data collection at the worst of your intersections. Then we could compare.
No doubt! Sounds like a good science fair project to me. I'll go for it if I get to sit in an umbrella chair with a six pack while I'm doing the counting. Too bad we don't live in the same area. We could get two umbrella chairs, two six packs, and make a day of it.

I'm inclined to wonder if the $5000 bike asshats are just rude, while the $300 hybrid asshats are just clueless. Or maybe their personality is the same as the $5000 asshat, but they have a $300 asshat budget. lol

Seriously ... I think I think too much. Too often, I try to make sense of the unmakesenseable.
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Old 07-24-14, 10:00 AM   #40
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No doubt! Sounds like a good science fair project to me. I'll go for it if I get to sit in an umbrella chair with a six pack while I'm doing the counting. Too bad we don't live in the same area. We could get two umbrella chairs, two six packs, and make a day of it.

I'm inclined to wonder if the $5000 bike asshats are just rude, while the $300 hybrid asshats are just clueless. Or maybe their personality is the same as the $5000 asshat, but they have a $300 asshat budget. lol

Seriously ... I think I think too much. Too often, I try to make sense of the unmakesenseable.
That's a dangerously attractive idea. You're right we should probably forget about it before we come up with a workable methodology and feel obligated to try it.
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Old 07-24-14, 10:02 AM   #41
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No doubt! Sounds like a good science fair project to me. I'll go for it if I get to sit in an umbrella chair with a six pack while I'm doing the counting. Too bad we don't live in the same area. We could get two umbrella chairs, two six packs, and make a day of it.

I'm inclined to wonder if the $5000 bike asshats are just rude, while the $300 hybrid asshats are just clueless. Or maybe their personality is the same as the $5000 asshat, but they have a $300 asshat budget. lol

Seriously ... I think I think too much. Too often, I try to make sense of the unmakesenseable.
I think this is the true question; but much more difficult to execute an assessment. A full battery of personality tests would be necessary. And they do not have to time since they need to run light. Maybe offer them CF water bottle holders or whatever $300 asshats like (maybe a free get out of a public mischief charge card).

You need a control. People usually behave better when they see someone observing them with a clipboard. A first year sociology class in my undergrad had students go out in business formal dress with a clipboard, normal casual clothes with a clipboard, and hidden behind trees at intersections to watch stop sign behavior.

I also spend way too much time trying to make sense of nonsensical actions, I just like to try figure out why it is happening so I can be better prepared for another situation like it.

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Old 07-24-14, 10:11 AM   #42
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That's a dangerously attractive idea. You're right we should probably forget about it before we come up with a workable methodology and feel obligated to try it.
+1
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Old 07-24-14, 01:11 PM   #43
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I'm curious. What is it that vexes you....passing on the right, passing too fast, running stops, all of the above? I know what would bother me and just wondering what it is for you.
Passing on the right and blowing the stops would really bother me. It gives cyclists a bad image in the public eye.
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Old 07-25-14, 08:33 AM   #44
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Personally, I think it's something psychological that happens to fully-kitted riders.
That may be a correlative indicator, but I don't think there's anything causal about the relationship. It think it's more a matter of people who adhere to these principles which suggests a high degree of aggressive, competitive ego-driven behavior; kinda an attitude that "the world is my time-trial track".
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Old 07-25-14, 09:41 AM   #45
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I learned to ride a hundred years or so ago... the sport, at least here in so cal, was not that popular. The roadies then were very serious riders. Mountain bikers also serious... if you did something wrong, an "old timer" would think nothing of schooling you; for instance, if I was drifting in and out of the bike lane or between cars, I recall cyclists yelling at me "WATCH YOUR LINE! Don't weave!" adding some expletive...Same with MTB riding... the old timers thought nothing of telling you how to ride properly. So I was given the advice, instruction and tools to ride properly, courteously and with consideration... nowadays, maybe because its thought to be "un PC" or because people have become apathetic, its not done so people just don't learn. I consider myself an "old timer" and have earned the right to give "advice" and don't hesitate to do so but my friends often ask me why I bother... I bother because I care. I think its a combo of clueless and careless and inconsiderate... no one just rides anymore for the pleasure of it - it's now always a race - "I'm using Strava and working on beating so and so's time" or "The Tour de France riders blows signs; why can't I..." anyway... old timers... I am calling on you... educate the young and/or clueless... we will all thank you in the long run!
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Old 07-25-14, 10:14 AM   #46
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It's quite normal for people to be bothered by others that do things differently than themselves. Just do what we think is best, let others go if possible.
I think it's fine to take exception to behavior that is dangerous. I'm not going to tolerate some drunk in my neighborhood waving around a loaded g u n because I don't want to hurt his feelings or something.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:17 AM   #47
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It's not just the fast that do that stuff.

I regularly see commuters filter up at stop signs and attempt to pass cars that are signaling, and about to turn right.

It bugs me because, since they presumably spend time on the road, they should know better- if only from the hospital bills.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:33 AM   #48
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I sometimes pass on the right if the spaced out idiot in front of me is riding in the middle of the road, won't move over, and there's plenty of room on the right. I much prefer that to getting right up against the yellow line what with oncoming traffic and all. I announce and go by as quickly as I can to reduce the number of seconds available for asshattery. Sometimes stopping at stop signs in a zero traffic situation is not so smart. I saw a couple guys stop rather quickly for a stop sign that was a bit hidden in the foliage. They happened to be in the lead in a pack and brought down a number of riders behind them. What do they say about pack riding? Don't use your brakes unless you are the last rider? Cycling is complicated. I avoid criticizing other riders unless they almost take me out or are giving the sport a bad name.
So because you are in a paceline it is ok to run a stop sign?
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Old 07-29-14, 02:17 PM   #49
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I sometimes pass on the right if the spaced out idiot in front of me is riding in the middle of the road, won't move over, and there's plenty of room on the right. I much prefer that to getting right up against the yellow line what with oncoming traffic and all. I announce and go by as quickly as I can to reduce the number of seconds available for asshattery. Sometimes stopping at stop signs in a zero traffic situation is not so smart. I saw a couple guys stop rather quickly for a stop sign that was a bit hidden in the foliage. They happened to be in the lead in a pack and brought down a number of riders behind them. What do they say about pack riding? Don't use your brakes unless you are the last rider? Cycling is complicated. I avoid criticizing other riders unless they almost take me out or are giving the sport a bad name.
Why not make bicycling simple and just ride for fun? There is enough complexity in this world of ours that something in one's life ought to be relaxing, enjoyable and uncomplicated. For me, at least, one of those things is bicycling - where I can get away from problems and concerns, perhaps think and dream a bit.

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Old 07-29-14, 07:27 PM   #50
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So because you are in a paceline it is ok to run a stop sign?
Go ahead, injure anyone you like, just don't ride near me.
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