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Old 07-29-14, 08:37 PM   #51
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Great rant! You had me at kitted-out middle-aged men.
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Old 07-30-14, 02:36 AM   #52
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A woman gets depressed. She eats a lot. Her husband gets unhappy. She eats even more. Her husband leaves her for a skinny chick twenty years younger. She gets really fat and hires a crap divorce lawyer. She gets taken to the cleaners. All she can afford on the salary she makes at the Waffle House is a subcompact.
I was catching up on this thread by reading from the most recent post backwards, and came upon this strange, seemingly disconnected quote. So I followed the link, and it was a reply to:

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…A question, why do so many larger women drive compact or subcompact cars?
A Jeopardy [quiz show] moment.
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Old 07-30-14, 05:58 AM   #53
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Go ahead, injure anyone you like, just don't ride near me.
Someone following the rules of the road and getting hit by someone else because they don't follow the rules is not the rule follower injuring the one not following. It is the one not following the laws injuring the one following the laws.
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Old 07-30-14, 06:36 AM   #54
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Someone following the rules of the road [law-abiding citizen] and getting hit by someone else because they don't follow the rules [scofflaw] is not the rule follower injuring the one not following. It is the one not following the laws injuring the one following the laws.
Let me see if I follow this: A law-abiding citizen following the rules of the road and getting hit by a scofflaw is not the law-abiding citizen injuring the scofflaw. It is scofflaw injuring the citizen.

I agree.
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Old 07-30-14, 08:24 AM   #55
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Someone following the rules of the road and getting hit by someone else because they don't follow the rules is not the rule follower injuring the one not following. It is the one not following the laws injuring the one following the laws.
If that's the lesson that riders on this forum are taking from my little story, that it's OK to ride any way you want regardless of those around you, then you're as bad as the meth-head pickup drivers and I don't know why I bother bother posting here.
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Old 07-30-14, 08:49 AM   #56
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If that's the lesson that riders on this forum are taking from my little story, that it's OK to ride any way you want regardless of those around you, then you're as bad as the meth-head pickup drivers and I don't know why I bother bother posting here.
So, let me get this right. You are saying if you are at the head of a paceline you should run the stop sign. If I was at the head of a paceline and saw an intersection ahead, I would be slowing regardless of when i saw the stop sign. Blowing thru any intersection is not a good choice in my opinion. Common sense isn't complicated.

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Old 07-30-14, 09:54 AM   #57
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So, let me get this right. You are saying if you are at the head of a paceline you should run the stop sign. If I was at the head of a paceline and saw an intersection ahead, I would be slowing regardless of when i saw the stop sign. Blowing thru any intersection is not a good choice in my opinion. Common sense isn't complicated.
Wow. When you are at the head of a paceline or on the front of a peloton, you are responsible for the riders behind you. It amazes me that some folks completely don't get that. They'd rather reduce it down to scofflaw vs. law abiding. As long as they're law abiding, it doesn't matter what they do. No, no, never take responsibility for your actions. Like I said, stay away from me. Hey, you stopped. Ignore the noise behind you.

I'm trying to teach a lesson here, but I guess it's too subtle.
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Old 07-30-14, 10:17 AM   #58
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Wow. When you are at the head of a paceline or on the front of a peloton, you are responsible for the riders behind you. It amazes me that some folks completely don't get that. They'd rather reduce it down to scofflaw vs. law abiding. As long as they're law abiding, it doesn't matter what they do. No, no, never take responsibility for your actions. Like I said, stay away from me. Hey, you stopped. Ignore the noise behind you.

I'm trying to teach a lesson here, but I guess it's too subtle.
I'm just watching from the sidelines here, but it seems that there is a serious lack of communication - it sounds like Carbonfiberboy is saying that it's ok to run your paceline into traffic and risk a collision with a gravel truck rather than slow down and risk having the rest of the line collide with each other. I'm sure that's not what he's saying, but I'm not sure exactly what he IS saying. I ride a parkway that has a number of groups riding in pacelines, and I'd like to know what the correct behavior is for a paceline approaching an intersection.

Despite all this back-and-forth, I still don't know...
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Old 07-30-14, 11:05 AM   #59
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I'm just watching from the sidelines here, but it seems that there is a serious lack of communication - it sounds like Carbonfiberboy is saying that it's ok to run your paceline into traffic and risk a collision with a gravel truck rather than slow down and risk having the rest of the line collide with each other. I'm sure that's not what he's saying, but I'm not sure exactly what he IS saying. I ride a parkway that has a number of groups riding in pacelines, and I'd like to know what the correct behavior is for a paceline approaching an intersection.

Despite all this back-and-forth, I still don't know...
It's very simple. When, as in the case I presented, you see an intersection ahead, but aren't sure how it's controlled, about 200' away you ease off on the power. As it gets closer and you still can't see the control, you shout "SLOWING" and after a bit, gently apply the brakes, slowing enough so that you could stop if necessary. Then when you see the stop sign, you shout either "STOPPING" or "COMPLETE STOP" and stop. The point is that you are responsible.

Should you be a complete f*up, as in the case presented, and ride full tilt up to the stop sign, you are still responsible. You have perhaps 20 milliseconds to make the correct decision. What that decision should be is impossible to prejudge. You have to be there. It is complicated. As it turned out in this case, all the streets were deserted and it would have been better to slow slightly, but continue. I slowed, rode around the mess, and continued without putting a foot down. If there should be traffic, entirely permissible to jam on the brakes and cause a pile-up. Still your responsibility. Ride responsibly is what I've been saying. Unbelievable.

On the subject of responsibility, the other thing is "Hold your line!" Unless you are about to lead people over something dangerous, like a sewer grate or 4X4 or lost muffler, hold your line. You should be looking far enough ahead to smoothly avoid and point out bad things. Again, it's complicated, a constant stream of judgement calls.
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Old 07-30-14, 11:20 AM   #60
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Wow. When you are at the head of a paceline or on the front of a peloton, you are responsible for the riders behind you. It amazes me that some folks completely don't get that. They'd rather reduce it down to scofflaw vs. law abiding. As long as they're law abiding, it doesn't matter what they do. No, no, never take responsibility for your actions. Like I said, stay away from me. Hey, you stopped. Ignore the noise behind you.

I'm trying to teach a lesson here, but I guess it's too subtle.
I ride in pacelines regularly, no lessons necessary here. And guess what, we stop at stop signs and red lights, and nobody crashes. You probably wouldn't get along too well in our pacelines either.
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Old 07-30-14, 10:43 PM   #61
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… so I guess we’re Freds, eh?
On the contrary, the description of the individuals in your rant pretty well define what it means to be a Fred. Good on you Biker395 for obeying traffic laws and setting a good example for less experienced riders.
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Old 07-31-14, 09:39 AM   #62
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I ride in pacelines regularly, no lessons necessary here. And guess what, we stop at stop signs and red lights, and nobody crashes. You probably wouldn't get along too well in our pacelines either.
One of the most highly rated clubs in my area rides in a formal paceline (2 X 2, turning turns pulling, calling out all down the line hazards, actions etc). There is a A, B and C group and you must start in C and be invited into B and then, if truly worthy, A. If you even thought of running a light or stop sign, you would be told to not ride with the club anymore... while the whole formality of this club drives me crazy and stresses me out, I give them kudoes for sticking to their standards...
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Old 07-31-14, 09:58 AM   #63
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One of the most highly rated clubs in my area rides in a formal paceline (2 X 2, turning turns pulling, calling out all down the line hazards, actions etc). There is a A, B and C group and you must start in C and be invited into B and then, if truly worthy, A. If you even thought of running a light or stop sign, you would be told to not ride with the club anymore... while the whole formality of this club drives me crazy and stresses me out, I give them kudoes for sticking to their standards...
+1
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Old 07-31-14, 03:21 PM   #64
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While the whole formality of this club drives me crazy and stresses me out, I give them kudoes for sticking to their standards...
Would that be Santiago Cycling Pam?

I've never ridden with them but I've heard the "drives me crazy and stresses me out" complaint from several different riders re:Santiago Cycling.

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Old 08-02-14, 07:45 AM   #65
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This thread makes my brain hurt.
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Old 08-03-14, 12:43 PM   #66
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This thread makes my brain hurt.
It would mine too, but curiously ... it's gone missing!

Whaddup, Big John? You should have ridden with us from Red Box to Grassy Hollow yesterday. They were handing out Smokey the Bear hats.
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Old 08-03-14, 01:12 PM   #67
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Old 08-03-14, 01:23 PM   #68
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I ride in pacelines regularly, no lessons necessary here. And guess what, we stop at stop signs and red lights, and nobody crashes. You probably wouldn't get along too well in our pacelines either.
Being from Iowa I am assuming you have the opportunity to ride on rural roads. What do you do if you come upon a four-way stop with no-one around and clear visibility in every direction? Does everyone in your group stop and proceed through the intersection one at a time?

There seem to be a lot of sanctimonious cyclists on this thread who expect cyclists to be different than everyone else. In my area there are certain instructions where there might be 1% of vehicles who come to a complete stop. They don't, however, put anyone in danger as they use reasonable judgement just as most cyclists (lycra wearing or not) do.
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Old 08-04-14, 08:42 PM   #69
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It would mine too, but curiously ... it's gone missing!

Whaddup, Big John? You should have ridden with us from Red Box to Grassy Hollow yesterday. They were handing out Smokey the Bear hats.
Did they have birthday cake? I couldn't have done the ride, I was so wiped out from work I struggled on a little club ride to 1000 Oaks. Seriously, totally exhausted at the ride start.
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Old 08-05-14, 04:49 AM   #70
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Looking back over the years, it seems that all road users have become much more careless and disorderly. I've no idea why this is, but suspect that permissive laws allowing right turn on red have broken the old Pavlovian habit patterns of red=stop and green=go. Also, with automatic transmissions, driving is no longer an art, and a smooth progression through the gears after a stop is no longer a pleasure to savor. As for cyclists, I agree that they are typically even worse than motorists, and I also don't know why. Could it be that many now view cycling as a sport, rather than transportation, and conclude, incorrectly, that cars and bikes need not follow the same rules? When I was growing up, I viewed a bike as a sort of car that one could operate when under sixteen, and it followed that it should be operated similarly.

In the aviation safety community, it is common to speak of the five hazardous attitudes -- anti-authority, resignation, impulsivity, macho, and invulnerability. These attitudes
seem stronger in our culture than they did 50 years ago. That's possibly the best explanation.

It may be more productive for me to try to find out why red light runners bother me so much. In motoring, speeding, though illegal, is something "everybody does" to some extent. Failing to stop at an intersection, on the other hand is taboo.

I've been conditioned to think of red as warning, danger. Going through a red light seems like picking up a red coal. Given this association, red light runners seem unnatural, lacking in control, likely dangerous. Why do you think they bother you -- it may be a more interesting question than why do they do it?
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Old 08-06-14, 10:58 AM   #71
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In the aviation safety community, it is common to speak of the five hazardous attitudes -- anti-authority, resignation, impulsivity, macho, and invulnerability. These attitudes
seem stronger in our culture than they did 50 years ago. That's possibly the best explanation.
I pondered this as I was assaulted by a Chevy Tahoo at a three way stop sign in my neighborhood today because I slowed some guy's egress from the area by no more than two seconds.

We live in a culture that is explicitly informed by Darwin and Nietzsche. I don't question either of them at all, but a culture informed by them is going to have certain predictable qualities.

We have no greater purpose than perpetuating our genome, and no better guidance than the will to power. "Treat others as you would have them treat you" is nothing but an artifact of earlier superstitious times.

Why we would expect anything other than self-absorbed behavior from anyone is beyond me.

/rant
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Old 08-06-14, 11:11 AM   #72
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^ Lol ... that sir, is a great rant.

And an interesting premise. Why indeed would we expect anyone to act other than in a way that serves their own selfish interests?

I read somewhere that the difference between most animals and humans (and some of the higher apes) is our ability to place ourselves in the other person's position and view things from their perspective. There are days I believe there are a lot of apes doing better than some humans in that respect.

I digress. So why the hell does anyone do the right thing, when it's not in their selfish best interest? Maybe they never do. Maybe the only reason people act civil to one another is because doing so makes them feel better, not because it makes the other guy feel better. In other words, maybe they are acting in their own selfish best interest, as they were trained to do during those earlier superstitious times.

Too much thinking for the undersized cranium I was blessed with. So much better to give the miscreants the finger and let it go at that.
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Old 08-06-14, 11:16 AM   #73
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I pondered this as I was assaulted by a Chevy Tahoo at a three way stop sign in my neighborhood today because I slowed some guy's egress from the area by no more than two seconds.

We live in a culture that is explicitly informed by Darwin and Nietzsche. I don't question either of them at all, but a culture informed by them is going to have certain predictable qualities.

We have no greater purpose than perpetuating our genome, and no better guidance than the will to power. "Treat others as you would have them treat you" is nothing but an artifact of earlier superstitious times.

Why we would expect anything other than self-absorbed behavior from anyone is beyond me.

/rant
To extrapolate from a Chevy Tahoe to the Universe of Mankind seems to me to be quite a stretch. Daily I see and interact with entirely selfless acts by parents of individuals with severe and profound disabilities (and their friends and sometimes relatives and very occasionally professionals), who literally go far beyond "Treat others as you would have them treat you", expecting nothing in reurn.
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Old 08-06-14, 12:06 PM   #74
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Old 08-06-14, 01:32 PM   #75
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^ Lol ... that sir, is a great rant.

And an interesting premise. Why indeed would we expect anyone to act other than in a way that serves their own selfish interests?

I read somewhere that the difference between most animals and humans (and some of the higher apes) is our ability to place ourselves in the other person's position and view things from their perspective. There are days I believe there are a lot of apes doing better than some humans in that respect.

I digress. So why the hell does anyone do the right thing, when it's not in their selfish best interest? Maybe they never do. Maybe the only reason people act civil to one another is because doing so makes them feel better, not because it makes the other guy feel better. In other words, maybe they are acting in their own selfish best interest, as they were trained to do during those earlier superstitious times.

Too much thinking for the undersized cranium I was blessed with. So much better to give the miscreants the finger and let it go at that.
The answer is this:

laetus
felix
beatitudo
sublime beatitudo

So it really is quite simple.

In the brief frank and earnest discussion that transpired in the intersection, I did not speak latin. I probably should have asked people to pardon my French.
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