Biker395 

Grrrr.

So my son and I are riding to work. We are on a residential street that has stop signs about every 1/10 of a mile.

I make it a habit to stop at every one of them. I think my son and I are among the only cyclists that do. And as usual, I came to a stop at one of those stop signs, on the right side of the lane as usual. I hear a loud buzzing behind me, and WHOOSH … a kitted out, middle aged man blows the stop sign at 20 MPH, and passing me … a couple of feet to right.

WTF … what is the point in that? Just plain ignorance? What if I turned right?

I’ll admit here that my thoughts went to ugly places here. I KNOW I could have chased his fat ass down and spanked him good, but that would have meant blowing stop sign after stop sign, as he continued to do as he want along.

Later, we are on another street, this time a T intersection. My son and I are in a wide bike lane, and we come to a stop for a red light. The light changes green, and WHOOSH. This time, two kitted out middle aged men do the same thing … pass us on the right. WTF? And trust me, I let them know about it.

Then we turn onto the MUP. This is a section with a good number of walkers, some with dogs and leashes, and there are a number of intersections … often with clueless joggers or cyclists who don’t even look when turning onto it. For some silly reason, I keep my speed down here, and call out when I need to pass.

... and we get passed by two kitted out middle aged me going a good 20+ MPH, one drafting the other. WTF?

I know where all of those cyclists are going. They’re rushing over to the Pier so they can do a loop together in a tight peloton. And no doubt, they’ll all go home and post their Strava results about how they were able to make such good speed on their morning ride. Trust me, you don’t have to be any great shakes to keep up with them in that peloton … ain’t nothing special about it. I’m quite certain I could embarrass more than a few of them, particularly in the hills. But my son and I are riding to work … respectful of stop signs and others using the MUP … so I guess we’re Freds, eh?

What is it about these guys that makes them feel like anyone riding slower than them isn’t deserving of the same respect? Or is it just anyone else generally? Blowing stop sign after stop sign is certainly evidence of that.

Get a clue, dudes. You’re not that special.

Rant off.

OldsCOOL

Just when you thought it would be safe on the MUP.

Jim from Boston

Nice rant.

bruce19

I'm curious. What is it that vexes you....passing on the right, passing too fast, running stops, all of the above? I know what would bother me and just wondering what it is for you.

volosong

Nah. None of that. He's just got a thing about "middle age men".



I know what you mean, 395. At times, if the situation allows, I've been known to chastise people who "give cyclists a bad name".

Pamestique 

I stopped riding with a large club here in Orange County because apparently those people thought traffic rules applied to someone else... anywho... probably one of my major complaints both on the road and trail is lack of etiquette and lack of obeying rules... just the other day as I was slowing down not only for the stop sign but a pedestrian crossing, some dipwad blew through and almost hit the pedestrian leaving me to opologize for his rude behavior. On trail... well a whole other thing as so many people are getting into the sport that are clueless (why I have a love/hate relationship with 29ers)... the other day some dork, forced me off the trail because he was bombing downhill as I was trying to find a line uphill - he clearly did not know the uphill rider has the right of way... I could rant on this for hours but no reason, won't change a thing... I just try and be the good human I hope others can and will learn from... and do my own thing in order to keep my blood pressure down...

Biker395 

Good question. I think it was cumulative. It was ALL of those things happening, within about 5 minutes.

But the worst? Passing us on the right ... while we're stopped for a stop sign or light.

First, it's extraordinarily dangerous. And second, the lack of any good reason for it drives me nuts. I understand people blowing stop signs. I don't like it, but I can make peace with it. I understand people going unreasonably fast on a MUP. Again, I don't like it, but I understand it. But what the heck is the point in squeezing by us on our right side when there is a clear lane on our left (there was zero traffic in both cases)?

I think it's one of my many personality flaws. I labor with the mistaken impression that people do things for good reason. lol

joeyduck

I almost posted a thread about this in the commuting forum, I am not in the 50+ demographic but I saw the post and wanted to add to it. I am also not a kitted out racer, I am a straight out commuter, but I like to go fast, but safe.

I have been having personal struggles with the passing on the right issue. I tend to stop/track stand at lights on wide boulevards about 10 feet behind the cyclist in front of me on a certain stretch of road; a bike lane flanked by drive and turn lanes, so I know (hope to a deity) they are going straight. There is usually a line of cars to the left going straight.

A majority of times I am onto the pedals faster and accelerate faster than the people in front of me, and my anecdotal experiences show that if I accelerate faster I am faster overall. I will prefer to pass on the left. But sometimes the option of a right hand pass in the parking/transit/drop-off lane is available as I move through the intersection. Or I will wait for a break in traffic and move into drive lane for left hand pass.

So question comes with the passing (based upon scenario, experience and logic presented above), is there really any problem passing on the right when...
the person in front is slower,
there is a lane + in width to the right,
I announce my pass,
I give space,
I did not run the red light,
I assessed the rider based on visual appearance (age, fitness, demographic) for appropriateness to pass (I wouldn't pass young kids, or uncertain appearing riders on the right),
I ensured no traffic was misbehaving and
I get the better jump on the light?

I am younger and I have fast acceleration and I can time and get the jump on lights without coming to a full stop most of the time, or be back far enough from the line to get a few strokes in when it turns green and go hard. I can legitimately hit 20+/-2 km/h through an intersection. So to many riders this may seem like I am just blowing through the intersection and by them, but they do not know I have been behind them and planning. Or I knew I had the light timing in my favor and followed the above criteria for the pass.

So not all the time someone passing on the right is a roadie d*ck.

I will never pass someone by blowing a stop sign, that is just bad form and unsafe.

MUPs in my mind are unsafe at any speed.

bruce19

Thanks. I'm pretty much with you. I assume, but don't recall you said, that they did not announce "on your right" and that is both annoying and dangerous IMO. Even on our club B rides there are people who will come past me on a 40+ mph downhill without letting me know they are there. Many times I've been behind a rider and setting up to pass and some fool comes flying by unannounced. This after ride leaders constantly emphasize communication. It makes me crazy. You always have to look behind and everywhere else when you are in a group.

az_cyclist

It is rude and sometimes dangerous to pass without announcing. I am not a fan of passing on the right (mainly because you dont expect it), but it sometimes happens in a group.

RoadGuy

People who don't follow the rules of the road peeve me no matter what the sport, or whether it's biking on the street, or a dedicated bikepath. Whether it's bikes, rollerbladers or skateboarders, or cars, people who don't follow the rules are a hazard to themselves and those around them.

Unfortunately, this is also one of the reasons that I have for the most part, given up snowing skiing. Pay money, fight your way through the driving traffic to get up to the slopes, and then be forced to share with people who ignore the rules of the road. I find the risks created by having to share the slopes with snowboarders (and a few skiers) who don't follow the rules of the road unacceptable.

Some people would say that it's ridiculous to give up a sport because of the risks created by some careless people that you would have to share the road with, but I say why take the risk? There are other places I can go.

big john

I actually had a dufus get mad at me for stopping at a stop sign. I told him he didn't have to follow me.

I had another dufus pass me on the right while descending at 35mph. There was very little room and I had no idea he was there. Just as he pulled even with me I reached out to point out a rock for my friends and I almost stuck my finger in his eye.

Biker395 

First, let me further describe the situations from the morning:

Both times, sitting at a stop sign or a stop light.
Both times, plenty of room and clear lane with no traffic to pass on the left.
Both times, no word at all from the rider(s). The ones that passed at the stoplight uttered something when they went by, but that was something to the effect of “oh ****!” as there was a near collision. Both times, the speed differential of the pass was 15+ MPH.
At the stop sign, accomplished while running the stop sign. In the case of the light, it had just turned green.

Under those circumstances, IMHO, they are asshats, regardless of what they are wearing.

Are there circumstances where passing on the right is OK? Yea, I think so. Envision someone descending on a 2 lane road with rumble stripping down the center line, and they are just a foot or so to the right of the center line. In that case, I’d be sorely tempted to pass them on the right and if they were going slowly enough, I suppose I probably would. But with a small speed differential and trying to announce my presence. I’m sure there are other situations too. As azcylist sez ... in a group where everyone expects it and with a slow speed differential is OK.

So much lost in the translation here, but it sounds like you are timing your approach to the intersection, then passing people who might be starting from a standstill at 20 km/h on their right. Is that it?

If so, the obvious question is … why? You’ve assessed that they are not heading to the right, but that is only your assessment. No one expects anyone to pass to their right under those circumstances … at least I wouldn’t. I might see you in my mirror and know not to move over, but most would not. And I’m pretty sure that if you were called to answer for any injuries, you’d be held liable.

Why risk a collision? Why not simply check over your left shoulder and pass them to the left?

joeyduck

Here is one of the two intersections I may pass on the right.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.22575...P38Lv9XfCQ!2e0

The bike areas are now painted green, in front of the right turn lane also. The rider would be front left at the stop line. Traffic in the lane to left of bike lane. I would hang back slowing around the start of the solid lines from the turn lane (in a track stand creeping slowly). Usually there are no buses or cars in the bus zone across the intersection.

To answer you questions:

I would be passing them as I accelerate to cruising speed and I would pass them probably half-way through the intersection. They would be pedaling straight (no right turn). I would not tend to pass them at a standstill unless they were in lala land and not aware of traffic moving.

I pass them at this point on the right since bumper to bumper traffic is not allowing me to pass on the left otherwise I would. Also F=ma, I want exert less F if I am already rolling. I ensure with shoulder checks that no other bikes are passing, no cars are going straight from the turn lane or right on red turning. I have also announced with an audible over traffic yell and a few bell dings.

It is rare I meet other people in this fashion. Also they have to be rather slow to induce a right hand pass, usually they will move along fast enough to not hinder excessively and I will pass on the left.

Yesterday presented me the situation where I started going from back on a green and the other guy was starting slow and still fiddling with his pedals. So I announced passing on your right and passed him, I had been catching him uphill so I knew I was faster. What got me thinking was the guy re-passed me (when I mis-shifted) on the right at full speed (30-35 km/h) with parked cars to the right with no alert.

B. Carfree

Have you also given up driving in groups because of the fact that almost every motorist out there runs the stop signs, speeds, makes illegal lane changes, fails to stop before turning right on red and often fails to yield the right of way when required?

Happy walking. Oh, wait...

Biker395 

OK ... that helps. And suppose the cyclist's destination is what appears to be that coffeeshop on the corner, and veers right to go up the handicapped ramp?

Sounds like a lot. I try to minimize my chance of a crash ... and that means remembering to do only one thing ... simply looking in my rear view mirror and passing to the left when it's safe. I don't really mind accelerating from a stop either. I actually like standing up, pedaling harder and running through the gears. Gives me a chance to look in the intersection and make sure there are no cars running the light too.

Maybe it's a 50+ thing.

Seriously? How many people drive in "groups"? My wife and I were just commenting about how we DO avoid following other cars "caravan" style, because it invites bad decisions. But the opportunity rarely presents itself.

I'm with Pamestique. One of the things I don't like about riding in groups is that it can put me to the decision of being safe and obeying the law, or getting rear ended (or causing one) in the group behind me. I was in a group of 50+ riders this weekend and dealt with it, but it wouldn't have been my choice. That's one of the reasons I often hang off the back.

Pamestique 

Not certain who drives in a "group" unless you mean with other cars like on a freeway...

for the most part... cars where I live do stop at stop sign and lights... there are alot of police around here just waiting and itching to give out tickets... my neighborhood is urban not rural...

and I choose not to roll with people who risk not only their own lives but the lives of others... personal choice on my part. I was always alittle too stressed out watching 10 cyclists move as one unit across the road in front of cars who thankfully were able to brake in time... my little group of friends now are fairly law abiding so our rides are casual, fun and stressfree - I am never in such a hurry I have to run a stop sign or stop light... I have difficultly understanding others who do.

As to the whole bike etiquette - all but disappeared around here - few people call out - I always do and generally get a "thanks for saying something" back... I will also tell other riders and walkers that bikes should always pass on the left; never the right. I tell walkers to move to their right not to the left so bikes can pass left. All done in soft, polite, conversational tones; I never barked out orders. I do sometimes yell at downhill MTB riders when I am trying to climb a steep trail... I have no patience for that sort of rudeness...

Carbonfiberboy 

I sometimes pass on the right if the spaced out idiot in front of me is riding in the middle of the road, won't move over, and there's plenty of room on the right. I much prefer that to getting right up against the yellow line what with oncoming traffic and all. I announce and go by as quickly as I can to reduce the number of seconds available for asshattery. Sometimes stopping at stop signs in a zero traffic situation is not so smart. I saw a couple guys stop rather quickly for a stop sign that was a bit hidden in the foliage. They happened to be in the lead in a pack and brought down a number of riders behind them. What do they say about pack riding? Don't use your brakes unless you are the last rider? Cycling is complicated. I avoid criticizing other riders unless they almost take me out or are giving the sport a bad name.

joeyduck

It is a skytrain (Vancouver's subway) station. Otherwise all residential. If they went there that would be totally unexpected since they rode uphill to get to it and there is a station downhill. I classify coffee and other shops as busy and I would not pass on the right near them. The second of the two intersections is a bit more commercial, but it an empty lot across the intersection. But this does raise the awareness of the right turn to make a left scenario. I need to be more vigilant of that!

As for all my other actions, I am doing them when going through an intersection regardless of passing on the right, except the yelling. So not a lot.

I do not think it is a 50+ thing. I think it is a sensible thing, I do not like being passed on the right either. Hence my qualms with it yesterday and my posting about it today. I was genuinely thinking about my post when I ran across yours.

I would be upset if someone did that through a stop sign like you had happen. If someone passed in the intersection like I described, I am not sure what I would think. I did not appreciate the unannounced close pass on the right from the guy I passed, who only caught back up due to traffic lights and me missing a shift. I did not like it since it was fairly tight quarters with parked cars and traffic on either side.

I will likely reassess my passing on right in the future, thank you. I also should not use the justification it is a rarity as an excuse since it is still illegal and unappreciated.

Biker395 

No worries here ... Honestly, I think a lot of this stuff is highly fact-dependent and a lot of that doesn't really come across in print. Like carbonfiberboy said ... it's complicated.

I'm sure what you're referring to was a reasonably safe choice under the circumstances. At the very least, your comments evidence a level of thoughtfulness about it ... and that's 95% of what it means to make good decisions.

BigAura

For me cycling is always about being defensive. I avoid and/or watch-out for all humans, vehicles, and animals. I try my best to ignore their bad behavior. The more quickly I can clear my mind of others' idiotic behavior the more enjoyable my ride becomes.

berner

I am just now reading a book by a theoretical physicist who proposes that consciousness consists of the ability of the brain to model reality into the future. I take this to also mean to be aware of consequences. Evidently, the subjects of your rant are unable to project their actions into consequences even into the immediate future. You, on the other hand, being a fully conscious person are able to incorporate your knowledge of behavior of such thoughtless people into consideration and enhance your safety. (I almost sound as if know what I'm talking about.)

bransom

Personally, I think it's something psychological that happens to fully-kitted riders. Sometimes, normal human beings pull on the Lycra and turn into complete and utter d-bags. I had two of them blow a stop light and turn right directly in front of me last weekend. I had to hit the brakes hard to not slam into the second one. Both riders fully kitted and on what looked to be tri bikes. The worst part wasn't even the stupidity of what they'd done but the complete lack of acknowledgment: no wave, no "sorry," no nothing. Asshats.

Rick@OCRR

I think it's great that you have bicycle commuters on the road at all! On my bicycle commutes to work, mine is the only bicycle out there on the road (with very rare exception).

The only other bicycle commuters I do see are either on the sidewalks or coming towards me in the wrong lane (salmon syndrome) or both (plus in the dark with no lights and nary a reflector).

Guess I should be happy about the problems I don't have!

Rick / OCRR

B. Carfree

Stand by the side of a road for a while and pay attention. Motorists do indeed tend to travel in groups. Count the number of motorists who are more than the recommended 2-4 seconds behind the vehicle in front of them. Better yet, go get some of the local traffic speed surveys from your area and look at the difference between the total number of vehicles and the number of cohorts (group leaders). They may not know each other and it may be informal, much like many groups of cyclists, but they do tend to drive in packs. Basic driver training involves teaching new drivers about this behavior and the risks associated with it since it represents most vehicles on the road.

As far as those motorists in SoCal currently stopping at stop signs: well, things must have changed since I was last there. The term "Hollywood stop" came about for a reason. There was also quite a bit of press coverage about Los Angeles removing its camera enforcement for red light runners a couple years back because of so many complaints by those who were running the red light to turn right on a red light without stopping. I'm not buying your story that motorists actually stop at stop signs in significantly greater percentages than cyclists; my experience is that people ride like they drive.

However, my real point is that you are grouping all cyclists and judging them based on the behavior of some individuals. At the same time, you do not do the same for motorists or pedestrians. Why the special treatment? In the political arena, the folks who do this generally use it to rationalize their opposition to equitable treatment of cyclists (See Rob Ford before he was an infamous mayor). I'm reminded of the first words out of the mouths of oh-so-many scofflaw motorists who have caused me to take evasive action while cycling. For some reason many of these folks say, "I'm a cyclist" as though that gives them some sort of special standing. (I generally point out that when one is driving a car one is a motorist.)

Road users are individuals. Each operator makes his or her own decisions, for better or worse. If you want to see it otherwise, that's your right. However, it seems odd to view some road users as individuals and others as representatives of their entire group. I'm curious as to what is behind that way of thinking.