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Old 07-25-14, 01:27 PM   #26
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Our MUPs are inherently dangerous because of the multitude of road and drive crossings where people zing in off the highway not even thinking of people crossing. That doesnt bother me because I'm 95% roadie.
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Old 07-25-14, 02:06 PM   #27
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I must note that the MUPS I ride are excellent in quality, generally very uncrowded, scenic, allow for long distances without any (or few) interruptions.
Now you're just gloating.
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Old 07-25-14, 03:52 PM   #28
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Now you're just gloating.
Yep!!
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Old 07-25-14, 04:49 PM   #29
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Our MUPs are inherently dangerous because of the multitude of road and drive crossings where people zing in off the highway not even thinking of people crossing. That doesnt bother me because I'm 95% roadie.
That's a pretty accurate description of most MUPs and bike paths in America as well as the silly cycletracks that are being experimented with.
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Old 07-25-14, 07:31 PM   #30
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Our MUPs are inherently dangerous because of the multitude of road and drive crossings where people zing in off the highway not even thinking of people crossing. That doesnt bother me because I'm 95% roadie.
That's a pretty accurate description of most MUPs and bike paths in America as well as the silly cycletracks that are being experimented with.
We're lucky not to have that problem on this one up here between Spokane and Coeur d'Alene. Two crossings in Post Falls with stop signs on the MUP side and two short detours to the street along an estimated 50 mile stretch is what we've got. The pedestrians and most of the other MUP traffic is pretty much concentrated in short distances within the two towns at each end with lots of wide open stretches in between.

Last edited by Zinger; 07-25-14 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 07-25-14, 08:27 PM   #31
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Mr Fox. Understand and agree you are doing what makes the most sense for you. Think you are very brave to be riding at all, even on the seemingly ideal Colorado MUPs.

Living South of Miami leave by 7:30 or before and head South when most traffic going North to Miami. Take side roads when possible. At 8 mile point have very little traffic, especially in my direction. At mile 11 in rural farm country with little traffic for next 11 miles. That takes about 80 minutes for 22 miles. By the time rest and return am on busier roads after 9 when traffic now light.

One possible MUP for 3 miles is untenable going South but ok and use at times going North.

At the end of the day, we all take what we believe are acceptable risks for the reward. There may be no absolute right or wrongs.
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Old 07-25-14, 09:33 PM   #32
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I get it as my S.O. freaks when I hit the streets. So I really pick my times, usually early early mornings for my favorite road rides or hill climbs and one 47 mile loop ridden at dawn's first light means like maybe 40-50 cars pass me in 3 hours. I can deal with that. Summer evenings I'm on our MUP (which I wrote a major grant for) and it's slowly being expanded from 2 miles, then another six, then 2 miles of designated lane, another 1, another two, then a connector into a state park, then a future connector between towns. I figure by the time I'm 70 I might have a real option to cruise maybe 20-30 miles or more. The whole take the lane attitude puzzles me as a person preoccupied or texting cares little about you and there are a lot of texters, emailers, phone dialing preoccupied asshats out there (bikes too). Situational awareness is the only thing that can keep you alive but...those vehicles drifting over a few feet..well, pretty hard to truly stay on top of them. We all do the best we can.

Our MUP is curvy enough that averaging over 15 means jamming over 20 on the straights and I can get away with that if I pick my hours. It's a great recovery ride cruise, particularly on a C & V.
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Old 07-26-14, 05:43 AM   #33
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99% of my riding is on MUP's, one in particular is in a very rural setting, majority of the time pedestrian encounters are are minimal especially in the 5:30-8:30 a.m. time frame. The paved roads around here have gravel shoulders that are not well kept, if one had to make an evasive maneuver, you will go down. Not only poor upkeep on the shoulder of the road, but the last 16"-20" of pavement at the control joints is usually crumbling.
As dangerous as MUP's are, I will take my chances there.
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Old 07-26-14, 08:29 AM   #34
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MUPS in Colorado rule. If I lived there, I might ride on the road only to get to the MUPS. Cycling heaven, I tell you.
My daughter moved to Denver yesterday. She's unpacking right now. She's going to love it.
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Old 07-26-14, 08:48 AM   #35
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There was a man that died on our MUP last year when not paying attention to a street crossing. This was in a quaint village of maybe 200 people and on a sidestreet. Evidently he didnt think there would be any serious traffic. I saw him laying in the middle of the street with EMT's trying in vain to save his life. DOA.
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Old 07-26-14, 08:59 AM   #36
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Denvrfox, your MUPs sound incredible.

I live in Portland. We have some MUPs but nothing like what you describe. 99% of my riding is on the street. During the week I commute and run errands, during the weekend I ride for fun or to the pub. Riding only on MUPs would be very limiting. Basically I'd have to drive everywhere again with just occasional recreational rides on the same few MUPs over and over.

My risk is, I think, pretty low. Most bike accidents are avoidable by a skilled, experienced, alert and defensive rider. The ones that are true meteor strikes - a car flattens you from behind - are toe-curling to think about, but very, very rare in reality. I've been riding on the streets in cities since I was 7 y/o. I'm a very defensive rider. I've never been hit or been hit by a car. I fall off my road bike maybe once a year, so far always due to a slippery road (this winter fell trying to ride in wet snow, a couple years ago fell on black ice), those aren't any worse than tripping on the sidewalk. (I'm not counting falls while mountain biking.) As long as my record stays good, I'll keep riding as and where I do. If I start making mistakes and getting in accidents or close calls, I'll correct my mistakes.

I believe that safe street riding is mostly up to the rider. I recognize that may not be true everywhere. But I used to live in the SF Bay Area and have ridden a fair few times in Manhattan, and it feels possible to ride safely there too.

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Old 07-26-14, 10:24 AM   #37
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MUP's are generally scary. Yesterday, an American woman on Vancouver's famous seawall was hit-and-run by a bicycle, part of a group 'racing'(!), thrown off the seawall onto the rocks below, and broke her back. On the other hand, if you are a cyclist going from A to B, MUP's are frustrating and slow. They seem more suited to tourists on rented skates and bikes. Vancouver's two-way dedicated bike lanes are OK, but aggressive passing can make it a game of chicken. I mostly stick to the roads. (And don't get me started on electric scooters - heavy, silent, and deadly in a bike lane, too slow on regular roads, and a menace on sidewalks. They don't belong anywhere).
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Old 07-26-14, 10:45 AM   #38
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. (And don't get me started on electric scooters - heavy, silent, and deadly in a bike lane, too slow on regular roads, and a menace on sidewalks. They don't belong anywhere).[/QUOTE]

I hate those bleepin idiot riders, electric and gas. Ugh.
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Old 07-26-14, 11:21 AM   #39
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"Because they are there" , said sir Edmond Hillary, to a different question..
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Old 07-26-14, 12:32 PM   #40
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. (And don't get me started on electric scooters - heavy, silent, and deadly in a bike lane, too slow on regular roads, and a menace on sidewalks. They don't belong anywhere).
I hate those bleepin idiot riders, electric and gas. Ugh.[/QUOTE]
Electric 3-wheel recumbents. Those drivers are erratic in the zipping around.
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Old 07-26-14, 05:32 PM   #41
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I kind of don't like anybody because everyone annoys the crap out of me.
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Old 07-27-14, 09:57 AM   #42
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I kind of don't like anybody because everyone annoys the crap out of me.
That's what my wife's beginning to say about me. My intolerance is growing with every gray hair
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Old 07-27-14, 05:30 PM   #43
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I posted a link to a definitive study in a different thread. I'll try to find and post on this link.

Riding more then offsets the risk of crashing with health improvements.The study doesn't take into account a few riders who make up the vast majority of fatalities.
1) rider is drunk
2) rider is riding wrong way (salmon)
3) Rider is riding on sidewalk
4) Rider is riding on sidewalk wrong way
5) rider is riding at night w/o lights... (ninja)
6) no helmet#1 is about 50% of fatalities alone.

Most fatalities have multiple characteristics... And these apply even when a driver is found at fault.OP is definitely correct in that MUPs have higher reported accidents and ER visits but lower fatalities.

Other poster mentioned fatalities usually at intersections! People presuming right of way, vehicle not respecting. Unfortunately, a lot of kids are represented here...

Last motorcycle crash taught me at 36 that I just don't bounce as well as I used to. I stopped for red light car behind me did not... Now that I'm 48, I really don't want to test that. I respect the OP's position and envy his infrastructure.

I try to commute once a week. 11 miles of country road, 8 of nearly empty MUP and 2 of upscale neighbor hood, but 5 of high speed parkway and heavy urban traffic. Of the traffic area is a "favored" bike way per city. I agree. I only get nervous a few places, and most people have worse...
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Old 07-30-14, 08:58 AM   #44
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Why do we bike?
The answer in my case: Exercise.
I do over 10,000 miles per year biking. The quest is to improve health and not get injured.
I bike in two locations. Winter 8 months in Florida. Like the OP a house chosen near a 46 mile paved MUP. I use a road bike and can bike above 20 MPH on much of the MUP but not all of it. There is Inverness with many intersections, pedestrians, kids, dogs, cats. So I must go slow 10 - 15 MPH there.
But I do get my daily exercise there safely. I agree with the OP. MUP are great for what I do but not for speed biking. For that we must use roads and take our chances with erratic drivers. Roads in that area of Florida are not very bike safe for many reasons.

The other location is Wisconsin. The MUP's in WI are not paved. I have a special configured CX bike for that. One 23 mile long trail can be done in 90 Minutes. Lots of intersections and pot holes and branches fallen of trees. Few bikers and fewer pedestrians. Great exercise 4x per week for 46 miles.
Another trail goes for 100 miles one way from Reedsburg to Trempealeau. Few bikers and few pedestrians but chance of branches and wash outs with loose sand. Not safe to go much above 25 MPH for those reasons.
But good for exercise and fun.

I have done lots of road biking. It is challenging. I found it not possible to avoid all accidents. Road conditions, cars, bikers my skills or reaction time are an accident waiting to happen.
However a biker addicted to road biking will not like MUP biking. That is clear to me.
My fear of an accident overrides my desire for the challenge of road biking.
I am 72.
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Old 07-30-14, 12:30 PM   #45
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Denver, I can see why you wrote about your choice of where to ride, due to financial considerations, given that this is a forum about cycling. Have you taken other measures to limit physical risk? Do you drive? Are you careful not to touch your face, do you wash your hands often, avoid public places like restaurants and farmers markets and ball parks? Those actions would seem to be pieces of a necessary overall whole, if you want to stay healthy for your children who require your aid. I assume you are saving what you can for the day when you're not around to help financially (and in every other way).

Although I do ride the occasional bike path and MUP, I've gone the other way, because I haven't had your needs. I don't mind the risk of serious injury or death, which is obviously low, given the statistics (and the fact that I'm still around to ride) played against the reward of a great bike ride, like cycling up and down a narrow road to Tioga Pass, in the Sierras, as I did a few days ago, or pedaling into the hills above my home town, or down to the beach, in L.A.

I probably touch my face too often not to get sick once in a while, I sometimes eat food that's fallen to the ground, I don't drink enough water and I should probably eat more vegetables and fruits. I've been injured a few times over the many decades on my bike, too, but nothing serious enough to do lasting physical or monetary damage to make me want to stop riding.
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Old 07-30-14, 01:26 PM   #46
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Why do we bike?
The answer in my case: Exercise.
I do over 10,000 miles per year biking. The quest is to improve health and not get injured.
I bike in two locations. Winter 8 months in Florida. Like the OP a house chosen near a 46 mile paved MUP. I use a road bike and can bike above 20 MPH on much of the MUP but not all of it. There is Inverness with many intersections, pedestrians, kids, dogs, cats. So I must go slow 10 - 15 MPH there.
But I do get my daily exercise there safely. I agree with the OP. MUP are great for what I do but not for speed biking. For that we must use roads and take our chances with erratic drivers. Roads in that area of Florida are not very bike safe for many reasons.

The other location is Wisconsin. The MUP's in WI are not paved. I have a special configured CX bike for that. One 23 mile long trail can be done in 90 Minutes. Lots of intersections and pot holes and branches fallen of trees. Few bikers and fewer pedestrians. Great exercise 4x per week for 46 miles.
Another trail goes for 100 miles one way from Reedsburg to Trempealeau. Few bikers and few pedestrians but chance of branches and wash outs with loose sand. Not safe to go much above 25 MPH for those reasons.
But good for exercise and fun.

I have done lots of road biking. It is challenging. I found it not possible to avoid all accidents. Road conditions, cars, bikers my skills or reaction time are an accident waiting to happen.
However a biker addicted to road biking will not like MUP biking. That is clear to me.
My fear of an accident overrides my desire for the challenge of road biking.
I am 72.
Dude, you have wonderful infrastructure...

My commute (trying to do once a week) has a bit over 10 miles of country highway, then 10 of much and 3 of upscale suburb and lastly 2 miles of dense urban traffic. The mup has, I think 1, sort of road crossing... At that time no one's there so I can go as "fast" as I can. Which is not all that fast.

I'll take the empty MUP.

Only thing roads have over where you're riding is car exhaust.
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Old 07-31-14, 09:35 AM   #47
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"Because they are there" , said sir Edmond Hillary, to a different question..
That was actually Sir George Mallory, who disappeared trying to summit it over ten years before Norgay led Hillary to the top.
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