Jaeger99

I think the odds of a different wheelset being the difference between the OP keeping up versus getting dropped are somewhere between zero and.... nope.... just plain zero.

OldsCOOL

Pretty much. You have to ride hard and learn to ride in the pain zone to get faster. But then, I'm not opposing the option of shaving significant weight as was said. I did this with my '88 Cdale criterium. Losing a sudden 2.5Lbs off the rolling stock has contributed to my faster times this summer.

Ride faster. If you always do what you always done, you will always get what you always got.

Gerryattrick

Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument

Doug64

It is my understanding that the benefit of aero rims are not realized at speeds less than 17 mph.

Biker395 

More info ... but it also appears to rely on first principle physics and ignores secondary effects.

Bike weight and the myth of 'fast' bikes - VeloNews.com

I think what makes me suspicious is the fact that I have ridden different bikes in the hills, and whether it's weight, frame stiffness, or what ... I think there is a considerable difference between them. Just call me Mr. Placebo. <shrug>

ShootingCoach

I would first ask what the OP weighs. Due to an ongoing illness, I went from a fit 185 lbs to 140 something last year. I was very fortunate at being healthy enough to ride during the illness and treatment.

I found I was MUCH faster on hills and flats. I got a ZIPP wheelset for the Cannondale, and found a little more speed, especially in a headwind. The 'Dale became a rocket with a tailwind!

I would suggest the total package needs to be looked at. Diet, fitness, weight, technique, position on bike, time on bike. The only way to get fast on hills is to hit the hills. An inexpensive heart monitor may help you train harder and smarter.

An aero wheelset will give a little more speed, but not at 3 mph on a hill! Pedaling less weight up the hill with a stronger, fitter body having more endurance is the key.

At 63, I have found less body weight, endurance and strength is my foundation for more enjoyment on the bike. Also, when starting a climb, a positive attitude helps. For some reason, I like hills. Hills make me strong.

Using the Mediterranean Food Pyramid, I am maintaining a weight of 150+- lbs, BF around 8%, and am amazed at how light the bike feels. Several days a week at the gym for a balance of strength and endurance. Also, I work part time and stand during the job. I don't get tired.

You may want to redesign your training package. It is not too late to get stronger and faster.

macbride

I am 5' 10" and weigh 165# (20% body fat). In addition to biking 2-3 days a week I hit the weights 2-3x a week and concentrate some on hams and quads but mostly on upper body and core. I ride hard and push myself on hills to the point just below having my thighs cramp. I have not done interval training and appreciate the suggestion from several posters. I understand no pain, no gain but at some point its just not worth it. I am not interested in racing. Again, I am fine on straights and downhills, just looking to get better at climbs. Sounds like the consensus is a better wheelset and tires will not make a difference and I need to start interval training. I appreciate all the advice.

OldsCOOL

Wheelset can make a difference if your present set is not what you would term "light". If it has an oldschool freewheel like I was used to, the switch to cassette will have a weight loss. If you can trim 2Lbs or more via lighter tubes, tires and wheels, go for it. I shaved a noticeable 2.5Lbs off my ride (now in the 17's). Otherwise, if you only stand to trim a pound or so you wouldnt notice the difference in performance.

Wildwood 

Given your level of fitness, I'll agree with a better wheelset and keep the front tire the same width as the rim. Try tubies for the lightest wheelset - doesn't have to be carbon. I also agree with ShootinCoach that the whole package is the best improvement. And intervals from time to time for power.

But my 'hidden' secret is trying to keep myself as aero as possible, even at 15, 16, 17mph and at all times. No sitting up in the wind. Everybody tries to keep a flat back, but that may not be your power position (at the group's speed+distance). Hands closer to the stem, round your shoulders, elbows tucked in, pedaling with knees almost brushing the TT. At some point in the future, ditch the wide handlebars. Even read somewhere that shaving the legs helps (maybe nonsense, what do I know?). If you are a multi-bike guy then get one set up for speed. edit: dump the helmet and shave your head if you are really serious about this, or perhaps a $250 new aero road helmet.

Just remember all these improvements are minimal. Assuming no over-riding medical conditions - nutrition, exercise and rest in the proper proportions are the key. Years and decades of base miles also train the body to sometimes go beyond. Or maybe it's just the Voigt Principle at work.

And of course - drafting 'as-close-to-the-wheel-in-front-as-you-both-dare' can be the most significant. But generally frowned upon in amateur group rides, where no one expects to go down.

Sounds like you are enjoying it - so don't pass up the chance to enjoy the scenery along the way.

fietsbob

The aerodynamics of You Going thru the air , is the big issue you cannot improve on, riding a regular bike

the bike is just a small % of the frontal area of your body ..

yea following close behind the faster riders will save you work , but they will resent wheel sucking after a time.

so you have to take a turn at the front every Once in a While..

kingfishr

Well here's the explaination for why I am just as slow on CF as I am on steel. Obviously better wheels are the solution
Bike weight and the myth of 'fast' bikes - VeloNews.com

wphamilton

That's what you say

OldsCOOL

Only through the woods. One decent crosswind gust and I'm wanting to watch THAT outcome.

wphamilton

Ha, we're talking about aero and speed not stability But I rode it all over, and through some rain storms ... I'm not hijacking, just saying that we haven't seen the end of the story on aero bikes yet.

BlazingPedals

Once again, aerodynamics demonstrated. Buddy was in a 65-lb (but well-streamlined) velomobile. I figure it takes about a mile of 6% for me to catch and pass him. Otherwise, I'm only with him if he lets me.

dachshund

I think lighter wheels with smoother hubs will make you faster on descents, which has been my experience. Getting faster on hills and in the flats comes from plain old hard work. Do some form of intervals, use higher gears on hills (for some set period of time, then rest & repeat). I had a riding partner who was younger and faster than me until I changed my week day rides to hill rides. Then one day I started keeping up. In the flats I chase people who pass me. That can be a good workout. :-) Glute bridge exercises are also good for building strength. Stay hydrated, eat well, don't forget to rest.

Gerryattrick

If the op is just a few seconds behind the group then I can see that better components could make the difference. If the time lag is measured more in multiple minutes then I have to go along with those who advocate work on improving strength/fitness. At least that is worth a try before rushing into spending a lot of money.

It's a win-win. You can get fitter and faster and keep up, then upgrade and start leading your pals in.

Biker395 

+1

I've recently started doing that. It's one of the side benefits of losing weight ... you can push higher gears. I'm discovering that pushing higher gears in the hills stresses the legs more, the lungs less, so I try to pick a gear that shares the pain.

RideMyWheel

A little over a week ago I started a similar thread after getting my A$$ smoked by a bunch of old dudes and women in a peloton. (yeah, I said it again, you hyper-sensitive, politically correct sissy biker boys...)

My own experience in the past 10 days is that dropping 3 pounds of my own weight probably made as big a difference as buying lighter wheels would have for me. Increasing time in the drops was a big deal for my average speed, too. I was spending way too much time upright.

I've known golfers who attributed breaking 80 to a new set of irons, a driver, a putter. I've never known anyone who broke 100 because they got new hardware. That milestone is only achieved by hitting a few thousand balls correctly and developing good habits. Honestly, that's the equivalent to where I am in cycling right now--still trying to break 100. I'll just keep working on my motor for now.

chasm54

You're a sensible man.

As for getting your ass smoked by women, last year we got a 14-year old girl in our club a dispensation to race in the adult Cat4 races because she had no local competition in her age group. In her first Cat4 outing she sat on my wheel all the way then outsprinted me in the finish. I got off and said "I'm now officially slower than a 14 year-old girl." Her father said "don't feel bad, she'll be 15 next month."

icyclist 

My suggestions among so many good ones, for riding faster up the hills, based solely on my experiences over the years:

1) Lose some weight. Specifically, five pounds or more. You have to lose an honest five pounds, not just because you didn't eat or drink as much water as the night before. That will not be easy. If you exercise more to lose the weight, you'll just be more hungry. If you don't exercise more, and you eat less, you'll be just as hungry, because your body, in each situation, is going to want to replace the energy you lose. However, getting weight off your bike won't be as effective as getting weight off your carcass. Keep a food diary, eat a little less over time. How much time? Well, that's up to you, but it probably will take weeks, not days.

2) Couple the weight loss with more uphill riding – by yourself is fine – than you're currently doing. You're riding 2 or three days a week. That's not enough to improve your speed and strength. You will, in fact, gain weight initially as you up your workouts. You'll more than make up for that if you are also sticking to your diet, cutting back a little on your food over time. Are you eating dessert after dinner? Sugary snacks? Soft drinks with sugar? Don't, at least until the pounds are off.

You may never be able to be as fast as your younger friends – how old are you? – but you will be faster if you lose at least five pounds and up your uphill miles.

As you now realize, new wheels and/or getting a new bike won't make you that much faster. On the other hand, getting shiny new toys won't slow you down, either. They might add the motivation needed to push harder, and eat better, if you already doing that.

nkfrench 

I've noticed a speed difference about 1mph between riding armadillo tires and the conti 4000 gps.

I believe that good equipment can help a rider with poor pedaling technique more than a rider with good technique.
A cyclist with smooth pedaling in circles at high cadence maintains forward momentum better than a masher gets stomping on the pedals. Preservation of forward momentum is assisted with smooth hubs, light wheels, and fast tires, moreso for the masher than the spinner. I believe this is a large part of why I ride well on smooth flat surfaces but go inordinately slow uphill and on chipseal compared to my peers.

There is also the personal accountability. When you have good equipment but you're still slow, you can no longer blame it on the bike.

Good bikes are more fun to ride. That helps people ride more and as a result, ride faster.

jyl

I'm all for light, fast bikes and wheels. If you have the money, why not?

Then take the new gear to the hill where you get dropped. Ride that hill fairly hard, like 70%. Turn around, go to the bottom, and do it again. Repeat over and over. Some runs, push a big gear until your legs are exhausted; other runs, spin a small gear until your lungs are exhausted. Do 20 miles of this (so, 10 miles climbing, 10 descending). Do this at least a couple times a week. When it starts getting easier, go faster.

It works. It really does.

howellhandmade

I think when you want to go faster to keep up with other people who are dropping you, you're already racing. Nobody's pinning on a number, but it looks like you're reasonably fit and active and not obese, so if it weren't for the competition of the younger riders you might be satisfied with your speed. Might as well embrace it and adopt as many of the training tactics from racers as your time and pain tolerance will allow. Pro racers are generally less than 6% body fat, which I think is extreme for a 50+ citizen. But 10% might be a feasible goal, and would make a big difference to your climbing. And despite the seeming consensus, maybe look for an opportunity to try a set of lighter wheels. You might not notice a couple hundred grams, and it may cost too much to lose a noticeable amount, but I certainly noticed a loss of 850g. Feeling it for yourself is the best answer.

macbride

OP again,
Well, I purchased a Shimano Ultegra 6800 wheelset and added Conti GS 4000 tires. I rode a 58 mile loop with a variety of terrain with my younger faster friend. Did I get dropped? Yes. Did the wheelset / tires change make a difference? Yes.
First, my average speed was a personal best for a long ride by 1/2 mph. I noticed it was easier to accelerate on minor climbs and flats. While there was no apparent difference to me on three 5-10 minute climbs where I got dropped like I always do, I did not get dropped on any of the shorter hills and climbs.
So, I would have to conclude that if I do not want to get dropped, I need to start interval training as suggested.
I am glad I got the new equipment; it did make a difference.