So what if they say you are pre-diabetic and you already do the right stuff?
10-13-14, 06:10 AM
#76
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The Glycemic index isn't BS-
it is a tool from another time
It allowed folks who were "following" their diabetes via urine glucose-
to eat foods that were less likely to bounce their blood glucose over 150mg
which is roughly where your kidney starts to spill glucose.
So they would stick to low GI foods(well they were supposed to)
Now your proposal-that insulin spikes are "bad" [U]Slow carbs do not spike insulin, insulin spikes are the mechanism of damage[/U]..
that insulin is damaging-is also an oldish idea
Yeah insulin causing small blood vessel damage-is still a bit unclear
"Most people" think glucose itself is the more likely damaging agent-
and it isn't necessarily THE SPIKE- but the area under the curve
meaning a short sharp spike of glucose-immediately hammered down by a spike of insulin-
might not be as big a deal as a long slow plateau with minimal insulin response
In truth it is STILL unclear EXACTLY how why blood vessels are damaged in DM
Certainly it seems to be related to the elevated glucose-how much the insulin response has to do with it-still unclear
Hmmm-you could probably track down pathology studies Type 1 from the pre-insulin era-when was that-before 1920??
Those poor folks didn't get much insulin since no beta cells- -interesting to see what sort of micro- blood vessel disease they had(died with)
If they -Type 1 before insulin available- showed LOTS of blood vessel disease- obviously the insulin isn't the culprit.
You can bet someone has slides of just that-and they are online-just look
And insulin isn't just involved in "getting insulin into cells" (which is s very good thing) it also effects the disposition of other molecules-amino acids- and others
Insulin is being rehabilitated in respect to "being bad"
Yeah for quite a while Docs thought insulin-excess insulin-was bad
and that view was reinforced when Type 1 diabetics would IMMEDIATELY gain weight when placed on insulin
Duh-they were dying-of course they gained weight when given a life saving medicine
but docs have tunnel vision-and somehow insulin "became bad"-and was avoided in type 2 DM
Instead somewhat toxic oral medications were/are used-and insulin was relegated to just type 1.
Anyway docs are now trying to head off-reverse-type 2 by "resting" the pancreas with "outside" insulin (and this is also an old idea-old but plausible ideas are constantly recycled in medicine)
and this includes some ideas that in hindsight seem "crazy/stupid/dangerous"
Type 1 might be reversible too-with some sort of immunosuppression and out side insulin-but it is tricky to catch it early-since the patients slowly "get sick" in a non specific sort of way -they "feel bad"-slowly drink more urinate more lose weight-but slowly so it isn't obvious
Diabetes is bad
so is gout-suddenly painful joint-
amazing how much one small joint can hurt-completely disabling even when it is just The Big Toe
I have an arthritic index finger-trigger finger-wrestling I guess-
It hurts like hell-one small joint!!
and it is no where near the pain swelling gout patients get
but the day after I weight lift-light weights-and after I ride-it hurts like hell-despite my protecting it-
it hurts when I shift-I have those shift and brake one lever levers-and it takes a big pull to upshift to the bigger front rings-you use your hand-not thumb
So single joint Gout is extremely painful if my dinky index finger is this painful and it is barely swollen-hurts like hell!!
Genec no doubt has seem his relatives in agony(normally they respond quickly to treatment-so the agony should not be days worth)
but he has PLENTY of motivation to not get gout!!
it is a tool from another time
It allowed folks who were "following" their diabetes via urine glucose-
to eat foods that were less likely to bounce their blood glucose over 150mg
which is roughly where your kidney starts to spill glucose.
So they would stick to low GI foods(well they were supposed to)
Now your proposal-that insulin spikes are "bad" [U]Slow carbs do not spike insulin, insulin spikes are the mechanism of damage[/U]..
that insulin is damaging-is also an oldish idea
Yeah insulin causing small blood vessel damage-is still a bit unclear
"Most people" think glucose itself is the more likely damaging agent-
and it isn't necessarily THE SPIKE- but the area under the curve
meaning a short sharp spike of glucose-immediately hammered down by a spike of insulin-
might not be as big a deal as a long slow plateau with minimal insulin response
In truth it is STILL unclear EXACTLY how why blood vessels are damaged in DM
Certainly it seems to be related to the elevated glucose-how much the insulin response has to do with it-still unclear
Hmmm-you could probably track down pathology studies Type 1 from the pre-insulin era-when was that-before 1920??
Those poor folks didn't get much insulin since no beta cells- -interesting to see what sort of micro- blood vessel disease they had(died with)
If they -Type 1 before insulin available- showed LOTS of blood vessel disease- obviously the insulin isn't the culprit.
You can bet someone has slides of just that-and they are online-just look
And insulin isn't just involved in "getting insulin into cells" (which is s very good thing) it also effects the disposition of other molecules-amino acids- and others
Insulin is being rehabilitated in respect to "being bad"
Yeah for quite a while Docs thought insulin-excess insulin-was bad
and that view was reinforced when Type 1 diabetics would IMMEDIATELY gain weight when placed on insulin
Duh-they were dying-of course they gained weight when given a life saving medicine
but docs have tunnel vision-and somehow insulin "became bad"-and was avoided in type 2 DM
Instead somewhat toxic oral medications were/are used-and insulin was relegated to just type 1.
Anyway docs are now trying to head off-reverse-type 2 by "resting" the pancreas with "outside" insulin (and this is also an old idea-old but plausible ideas are constantly recycled in medicine)
and this includes some ideas that in hindsight seem "crazy/stupid/dangerous"
Type 1 might be reversible too-with some sort of immunosuppression and out side insulin-but it is tricky to catch it early-since the patients slowly "get sick" in a non specific sort of way -they "feel bad"-slowly drink more urinate more lose weight-but slowly so it isn't obvious
Diabetes is bad
so is gout-suddenly painful joint-
amazing how much one small joint can hurt-completely disabling even when it is just The Big Toe
I have an arthritic index finger-trigger finger-wrestling I guess-
It hurts like hell-one small joint!!
and it is no where near the pain swelling gout patients get
but the day after I weight lift-light weights-and after I ride-it hurts like hell-despite my protecting it-
it hurts when I shift-I have those shift and brake one lever levers-and it takes a big pull to upshift to the bigger front rings-you use your hand-not thumb
So single joint Gout is extremely painful if my dinky index finger is this painful and it is barely swollen-hurts like hell!!
Genec no doubt has seem his relatives in agony(normally they respond quickly to treatment-so the agony should not be days worth)
but he has PLENTY of motivation to not get gout!!
THE GLYCEMIC INDEX IS BS!
It is grossly over simpified model.
It measures how well a carb source burns?
Are you burning something or are you eating something then metabolising it...
Try Insulin response curve.
This is a direct human model of the response to a food. A large group of people under known conditions eat a defined amount of food and their insulin response is measured.
Example:
unprocessed beans, have a low nearly flat insulin response.
or
oatmeal is a really funny one.
The quick cook oatmeal hits your blood stream like a hammer... Rapid increase in blood sugar, very high spike of insulin, then blood sugar crash.
the traditional slow cook, is a long slow burn... trickles into blood stream slowly over hours. very low insulin response.
Slow carbs do not spike insulin, insulin spikes are the mechanism of damage...
obviously for all but type 1, but for type 1 how fast the carbs hit the blood stream is even more critical.
The main advantage of the GI is that the test is easy and cheap. Too bad it is misleading.
The main disadvantage of IR is the test painstaking and expensive. So a lot of foods haven't been tested yet.
It is grossly over simpified model.
It measures how well a carb source burns?
Are you burning something or are you eating something then metabolising it...
Try Insulin response curve.
This is a direct human model of the response to a food. A large group of people under known conditions eat a defined amount of food and their insulin response is measured.
Example:
unprocessed beans, have a low nearly flat insulin response.
or
oatmeal is a really funny one.
The quick cook oatmeal hits your blood stream like a hammer... Rapid increase in blood sugar, very high spike of insulin, then blood sugar crash.
the traditional slow cook, is a long slow burn... trickles into blood stream slowly over hours. very low insulin response.
Slow carbs do not spike insulin, insulin spikes are the mechanism of damage...
obviously for all but type 1, but for type 1 how fast the carbs hit the blood stream is even more critical.
The main advantage of the GI is that the test is easy and cheap. Too bad it is misleading.
The main disadvantage of IR is the test painstaking and expensive. So a lot of foods haven't been tested yet.
10-13-14, 06:31 AM
#77
Semper Fi
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Genec,
One thing I do when I go to a doctor's appointment is to take my rider's diary/log with me, and I ask that they scan through it. I put the fact I am a cyclist and a vegetarian right up front so they should avoid all the cookie cutter recommendations that they give to 99% of the population that would need these types of things. If you have a log of your riding it can help them better understand that you have different lab results and the regular off the shelf pamphlets won't apply to you. I was fortunate to find a primary care physician last year that is a cyclist, made a tremendous difference in how he looks at things.
Since your nutrition is pretty healthy already, having some lab numbers in the pre-diabetic range would make me more alert to some cause out of the norms causing the problems. And, I haven't heard anyone mention that one test result doesn't mean much, maybe its a bad for you, or the lab's analysis is off a bit. It happens more often than they want to admit. If it seems that something is wrong after some detailed tests that can identify any problems better ask for a referral to an endocrinologist, as I said in my earlier, much to cheeky, reply. (Apologies if I was over the top there.)
Gout and its incredible pain, I hope that I never, ever have to go through that crap. I had a close friend at work that had gout, from his diet largely, and he went through hell on a regular basis. Even with the doctor's care, and those shots he needed, he still went through the wringer with the pain
Best of luck with all your cycling, don't let the physicians that aren't familiar with you get to you, and don't fault a physician that doesn't know about your personal factors, either. Its the health care workers that won't listen that are dangerous, IMHO
Bill
One thing I do when I go to a doctor's appointment is to take my rider's diary/log with me, and I ask that they scan through it. I put the fact I am a cyclist and a vegetarian right up front so they should avoid all the cookie cutter recommendations that they give to 99% of the population that would need these types of things. If you have a log of your riding it can help them better understand that you have different lab results and the regular off the shelf pamphlets won't apply to you. I was fortunate to find a primary care physician last year that is a cyclist, made a tremendous difference in how he looks at things.
Since your nutrition is pretty healthy already, having some lab numbers in the pre-diabetic range would make me more alert to some cause out of the norms causing the problems. And, I haven't heard anyone mention that one test result doesn't mean much, maybe its a bad for you, or the lab's analysis is off a bit. It happens more often than they want to admit. If it seems that something is wrong after some detailed tests that can identify any problems better ask for a referral to an endocrinologist, as I said in my earlier, much to cheeky, reply. (Apologies if I was over the top there.)
Gout and its incredible pain, I hope that I never, ever have to go through that crap. I had a close friend at work that had gout, from his diet largely, and he went through hell on a regular basis. Even with the doctor's care, and those shots he needed, he still went through the wringer with the pain
Best of luck with all your cycling, don't let the physicians that aren't familiar with you get to you, and don't fault a physician that doesn't know about your personal factors, either. Its the health care workers that won't listen that are dangerous, IMHO
Bill
__________________
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
Last edited by qcpmsame; 10-13-14 at 06:34 AM.
10-13-14, 07:33 AM
#78
Tractorlegs
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Genec,
One thing I do when I go to a doctor's appointment is to take my rider's diary/log with me, and I ask that they scan through it. I put the fact I am a cyclist and a vegetarian right up front so they should avoid all the cookie cutter recommendations that they give to 99% of the population that would need these types of things. If you have a log of your riding it can help them better understand that you have different lab results and the regular off the shelf pamphlets won't apply to you. I was fortunate to find a primary care physician last year that is a cyclist, made a tremendous difference in how he looks at things.
Since your nutrition is pretty healthy already, having some lab numbers in the pre-diabetic range would make me more alert to some cause out of the norms causing the problems. And, I haven't heard anyone mention that one test result doesn't mean much, maybe its a bad for you, or the lab's analysis is off a bit. It happens more often than they want to admit. If it seems that something is wrong after some detailed tests that can identify any problems better ask for a referral to an endocrinologist, as I said in my earlier, much to cheeky, reply. (Apologies if I was over the top there.)
Gout and its incredible pain, I hope that I never, ever have to go through that crap. I had a close friend at work that had gout, from his diet largely, and he went through hell on a regular basis. Even with the doctor's care, and those shots he needed, he still went through the wringer with the pain
Best of luck with all your cycling, don't let the physicians that aren't familiar with you get to you, and don't fault a physician that doesn't know about your personal factors, either. Its the health care workers that won't listen that are dangerous, IMHO
Bill
One thing I do when I go to a doctor's appointment is to take my rider's diary/log with me, and I ask that they scan through it. I put the fact I am a cyclist and a vegetarian right up front so they should avoid all the cookie cutter recommendations that they give to 99% of the population that would need these types of things. If you have a log of your riding it can help them better understand that you have different lab results and the regular off the shelf pamphlets won't apply to you. I was fortunate to find a primary care physician last year that is a cyclist, made a tremendous difference in how he looks at things.
Since your nutrition is pretty healthy already, having some lab numbers in the pre-diabetic range would make me more alert to some cause out of the norms causing the problems. And, I haven't heard anyone mention that one test result doesn't mean much, maybe its a bad for you, or the lab's analysis is off a bit. It happens more often than they want to admit. If it seems that something is wrong after some detailed tests that can identify any problems better ask for a referral to an endocrinologist, as I said in my earlier, much to cheeky, reply. (Apologies if I was over the top there.)
Gout and its incredible pain, I hope that I never, ever have to go through that crap. I had a close friend at work that had gout, from his diet largely, and he went through hell on a regular basis. Even with the doctor's care, and those shots he needed, he still went through the wringer with the pain
Best of luck with all your cycling, don't let the physicians that aren't familiar with you get to you, and don't fault a physician that doesn't know about your personal factors, either. Its the health care workers that won't listen that are dangerous, IMHO
Bill
__________________
********************************
Trikeman
Trikeman
10-13-14, 05:01 PM
#79
Senior Member
I'm calling BS on this one.
Do you know how to make "quick cook" oats?
Put ordinary slow cook oats in a blender and pulse for 30 seconds to a minute, then cook it.
There is no difference.
Now if they were talking about the packets with all the added sugar, etc. that's a different story.
Do you know how to make "quick cook" oats?
Put ordinary slow cook oats in a blender and pulse for 30 seconds to a minute, then cook it.
There is no difference.
Now if they were talking about the packets with all the added sugar, etc. that's a different story.
OH SO SLOW to digest?
Think!
The difficulty is how fast stuff gets into your blood stream and how high it jacks your blood sugar...
x amount over q time results in Z blood sugar level...
Cut Q in half or 1/10th?
10-13-14, 05:18 PM
#80
Senior Member
The Glycemic index isn't BS-
it is a tool from another time
It allowed folks who were "following" their diabetes via urine glucose-
to eat foods that were less likely to bounce their blood glucose over 150mg
which is roughly where your kidney starts to spill glucose.
So they would stick to low GI foods(well they were supposed to)
Now your proposal-that insulin spikes are "bad" [U]Slow carbs do not spike insulin, insulin spikes are the mechanism of damage[/U]..
that insulin is damaging-is also an oldish idea
Yeah insulin causing small blood vessel damage-is still a bit unclear
"Most people" think glucose itself is the more likely damaging agent-
and it isn't necessarily THE SPIKE- but the area under the curve
meaning a short sharp spike of glucose-immediately hammered down by a spike of insulin-
might not be as big a deal as a long slow plateau with minimal insulin response
In truth it is STILL unclear EXACTLY how why blood vessels are damaged in DM
Certainly it seems to be related to the elevated glucose-how much the insulin response has to do with it-still unclear
Hmmm-you could probably track down pathology studies Type 1 from the pre-insulin era-when was that-before 1920??
Those poor folks didn't get much insulin since no beta cells- -interesting to see what sort of micro- blood vessel disease they had(died with)
If they -Type 1 before insulin available- showed LOTS of blood vessel disease- obviously the insulin isn't the culprit.
You can bet someone has slides of just that-and they are online-just look
And insulin isn't just involved in "getting insulin into cells" (which is s very good thing) it also effects the disposition of other molecules-amino acids- and others
Insulin is being rehabilitated in respect to "being bad"
Yeah for quite a while Docs thought insulin-excess insulin-was bad
and that view was reinforced when Type 1 diabetics would IMMEDIATELY gain weight when placed on insulin
Duh-they were dying-of course they gained weight when given a life saving medicine
but docs have tunnel vision-and somehow insulin "became bad"-and was avoided in type 2 DM
Instead somewhat toxic oral medications were/are used-and insulin was relegated to just type 1.
Anyway docs are now trying to head off-reverse-type 2 by "resting" the pancreas with "outside" insulin (and this is also an old idea-old but plausible ideas are constantly recycled in medicine)
and this includes some ideas that in hindsight seem "crazy/stupid/dangerous"
Type 1 might be reversible too-with some sort of immunosuppression and out side insulin-but it is tricky to catch it early-since the patients slowly "get sick" in a non specific sort of way -they "feel bad"-slowly drink more urinate more lose weight-but slowly so it isn't obvious
Diabetes is bad
so is gout-suddenly painful joint-
amazing how much one small joint can hurt-completely disabling even when it is just The Big Toe
I have an arthritic index finger-trigger finger-wrestling I guess-
It hurts like hell-one small joint!!
and it is no where near the pain swelling gout patients get
but the day after I weight lift-light weights-and after I ride-it hurts like hell-despite my protecting it-
it hurts when I shift-I have those shift and brake one lever levers-and it takes a big pull to upshift to the bigger front rings-you use your hand-not thumb
So single joint Gout is extremely painful if my dinky index finger is this painful and it is barely swollen-hurts like hell!!
Genec no doubt has seem his relatives in agony(normally they respond quickly to treatment-so the agony should not be days worth)
but he has PLENTY of motivation to not get gout!!
it is a tool from another time
It allowed folks who were "following" their diabetes via urine glucose-
to eat foods that were less likely to bounce their blood glucose over 150mg
which is roughly where your kidney starts to spill glucose.
So they would stick to low GI foods(well they were supposed to)
Now your proposal-that insulin spikes are "bad" [U]Slow carbs do not spike insulin, insulin spikes are the mechanism of damage[/U]..
that insulin is damaging-is also an oldish idea
Yeah insulin causing small blood vessel damage-is still a bit unclear
"Most people" think glucose itself is the more likely damaging agent-
and it isn't necessarily THE SPIKE- but the area under the curve
meaning a short sharp spike of glucose-immediately hammered down by a spike of insulin-
might not be as big a deal as a long slow plateau with minimal insulin response
In truth it is STILL unclear EXACTLY how why blood vessels are damaged in DM
Certainly it seems to be related to the elevated glucose-how much the insulin response has to do with it-still unclear
Hmmm-you could probably track down pathology studies Type 1 from the pre-insulin era-when was that-before 1920??
Those poor folks didn't get much insulin since no beta cells- -interesting to see what sort of micro- blood vessel disease they had(died with)
If they -Type 1 before insulin available- showed LOTS of blood vessel disease- obviously the insulin isn't the culprit.
You can bet someone has slides of just that-and they are online-just look
And insulin isn't just involved in "getting insulin into cells" (which is s very good thing) it also effects the disposition of other molecules-amino acids- and others
Insulin is being rehabilitated in respect to "being bad"
Yeah for quite a while Docs thought insulin-excess insulin-was bad
and that view was reinforced when Type 1 diabetics would IMMEDIATELY gain weight when placed on insulin
Duh-they were dying-of course they gained weight when given a life saving medicine
but docs have tunnel vision-and somehow insulin "became bad"-and was avoided in type 2 DM
Instead somewhat toxic oral medications were/are used-and insulin was relegated to just type 1.
Anyway docs are now trying to head off-reverse-type 2 by "resting" the pancreas with "outside" insulin (and this is also an old idea-old but plausible ideas are constantly recycled in medicine)
and this includes some ideas that in hindsight seem "crazy/stupid/dangerous"
Type 1 might be reversible too-with some sort of immunosuppression and out side insulin-but it is tricky to catch it early-since the patients slowly "get sick" in a non specific sort of way -they "feel bad"-slowly drink more urinate more lose weight-but slowly so it isn't obvious
Diabetes is bad
so is gout-suddenly painful joint-
amazing how much one small joint can hurt-completely disabling even when it is just The Big Toe
I have an arthritic index finger-trigger finger-wrestling I guess-
It hurts like hell-one small joint!!
and it is no where near the pain swelling gout patients get
but the day after I weight lift-light weights-and after I ride-it hurts like hell-despite my protecting it-
it hurts when I shift-I have those shift and brake one lever levers-and it takes a big pull to upshift to the bigger front rings-you use your hand-not thumb
So single joint Gout is extremely painful if my dinky index finger is this painful and it is barely swollen-hurts like hell!!
Genec no doubt has seem his relatives in agony(normally they respond quickly to treatment-so the agony should not be days worth)
but he has PLENTY of motivation to not get gout!!
It's a model that has serious flaws relative to how it's used. It measures the amount of carbs, but not the rate, nor how it is metabolized.
High insulin levels, de-sensitive tissue to insulin, requiring higher and higher levels.. That causes the damage. Not old, but demonstrated both in cultured cells and animal models...
Insulin is NOT BAD... A couple friends w/ type 1 are alive because of insulin shots, but then we all are alive because of insulin. But when we blow it way out of optimum ranges over and over for years, it is devastating in excess.
Re sensitizing tissues is a bear. Believe me, was insulin resistant, now not... Took a TON of work, far more discipline then I have so I had many set backs and outcome is not as good as it could be so I'll have to be more disciplined over the long haul with less margin for error then had I not had such profound cravings.
TYPE 1: They have recently used stem cells to grow new islets of langerhans in animals! Human trials are not far off... If your type 1 hang in, this is very, very promising. Expense might be an issue as they culture and implant your stem cells...
Gout sucks!
I have an atypical presentation and it is just a taste of what most people get... SO sorry anyone gets this... The depictions from the middle ages are pretty representative of how it feels even to me...
Worse there's so much "information" out there that is explicitly not supported by double blinds... 1/2 of what people think is either only true for them, or a result of the erratic and delayed onset...
Who would think, spinach, oatmeal, asparagus, or turkey could be bad... But double blinds are pretty clear...
Does lemon juice or baking soda work for you?
Or does the immune response cause most of the pain?
With me it's not the immune response but the crystals themselves so lemon juice and baking soda work wonders...
Colcrys , does nothing for me...
10-14-14, 05:43 AM
#81
Senior Member
Gout sucks!
I have an atypical presentation and it is just a taste of what most people get... SO sorry anyone gets this... The depictions from the middle ages are pretty representative of how it feels even to me...
Worse there's so much "information" out there that is explicitly not supported by double blinds... 1/2 of what people think is either only true for them, or a result of the erratic and delayed onset...
Who would think, spinach, oatmeal, asparagus, or turkey could be bad... But double blinds are pretty clear...
Does lemon juice or baking soda work for you?
Or does the immune response cause most of the pain?
With me it's not the immune response but the crystals themselves so lemon juice and baking soda work wonders...
Colcrys , does nothing for me...
I have an atypical presentation and it is just a taste of what most people get... SO sorry anyone gets this... The depictions from the middle ages are pretty representative of how it feels even to me...
Worse there's so much "information" out there that is explicitly not supported by double blinds... 1/2 of what people think is either only true for them, or a result of the erratic and delayed onset...
Who would think, spinach, oatmeal, asparagus, or turkey could be bad... But double blinds are pretty clear...
Does lemon juice or baking soda work for you?
Or does the immune response cause most of the pain?
With me it's not the immune response but the crystals themselves so lemon juice and baking soda work wonders...
Colcrys , does nothing for me...
10-14-14, 07:12 AM
#82
Senior Member
I read a lot of things published for general readership. I found them mutually inconsistent. It took me a bit to recognize that it is one of those things that lends itself to superstition, and logical fallacies. We are really bad at randomly delayed causality, profound individual and temporal differences as well a intermittent probabilistic events.
So gave up on the general information and started reading research papers...
I don't keep records of what I study. Besides if I'm interested in it again, it is best to redo the research as we may have learned more or overturned what we thought we knew.
Example: the idea that alcohol is bad, well in itself it has a couple ways of effecting gout. For some people (bu not all, characteristics unknown), it increases the bodies creation of purines., If you drink enough to dehydrate, well that's REALLY bad (but then that's a bad sign anyway), and some drinks have purines in them.
Consider Beer, some beers have high levels, some none at all... Corona was tested and shown safe. Too bad I favor Dark beers, which some of them have high levels and some none at all... But I know of no testing results available.
Wine is the same, some types of wine are higher... some lower... but no real data on any one is known.
Or, relevant to previous discussion, studies are showing that in some fructose metabolism causes the body to increase uric acids. Some data would support that this is somewhat generalizes to simple carbs... But that is REALLY preliminary...
For several reasons beyond gout I use high dose fish oil which is a safe long term anti inflammatory more effective the over the counter NSAIDS long term and far, far safer. But dosage is really high, 10+ grams a day... Which you have to slowly ramp up to... And yes there are double blinds that support this strategy, again for what's considered very high dose.
I am completely in the dark about the immune systems response. It doesn't happen to me. So just the inflammation from the uric acid crystals. This is the only part I really studied. Since that's the start of the chain it is a good place to intervene long term... But for those who are having an acute gout attack, addressing the immune response should provide the most relief the quickest. If I let it get bad, then take lemon juice or better yet baking soda, within an hour my shoes will loosen and you can see the difference in my hands...
The one thing I know is that colcrys has been in use for a very, very long time. But recently the FDA allowed a company a patent in the US on it in trade for a double blind study demonstrating its safety and effectiveness.
Real research has only really just begun. So I'll return to this field every once in a while to see how its progressing.
Google: Gout, purines and double blind.. should be a good start. Try and watch for experimental design, there's a lot out of studies there that are poorly designed and can't prove what they claim to.
good fortune.
10-14-14, 07:38 AM
#83
New Orleans
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Gout
If I was prone to gout-or at risk-family or elevated uric acid
I would go to medscape
Just search for it
Then I would read THIS article
hope the link shows
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/823994_3
And I would
1) Try probenecid- it is pretty safe as drugs go
2)Drink Huge amounts of water-and I mean HUGE- maybe 6 liters or more on non ride days-and "even more" on ride days
3)I would NEVER NEVER allow my urine to be "dark yellow orange"-(or I would literally test the SG of my urine-simple float device can read SG)but other folks will be satisfied eyeballing the color
4)I would take to heart what the article says about Ph
Anyway I would certainly try probenecid-the only downside in bike riders is you guys are NUTS- and ride too long-and almost certainly become dehydrated(some of you)
because you really really really have to drink HUGE amounts of water- WHILE RIDING- to prevent dehydration-which is strongly contraindicated if you take probenecid
I once lost 6.5 lbs in 45 minutes-and I was already slightly dehydrated.
Now I was TRYING to lost weight-college wrestling making weight-and I was just 135 lbs or so
So safe bet SOME of you(who probably weight 160 or more)-in mid summer-doing 20 mph or more-will lose ALMOST 8 lbs/hr-a full gallon
Granted I was wearing 2 cotton sweat suits and two vinyl-but I was already a bit dry-and the room wasn't hot-AC-
so 8lbs/hr is entirely possible
But probenecid is a reasonably safe drug-keeping in mind the dehydration warning-cheap too(or it was cheap-the various Generic manufacturers have been price fixing lately-various "shortages" almost certainly "gentleman's agreements" "We will make X- and decrease our production of Y- You make Y-decrease production of X" to create shortages of various generics
Frankly that are a good reason to bring Pharm. manufacturing HOME-USA- offer significant incentives-tax breaks-to manufacture in your state-
Anyway I would go to medscape-lotta up to date gout info-it is where many MDs go to do CME( it is free-and the articles are generally "peer reviewed" in some fashion(not that that ensures they are "right")
but that is a different story
If I was prone to gout-or at risk-family or elevated uric acid
I would go to medscape
Just search for it
Then I would read THIS article
hope the link shows
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/823994_3
And I would
1) Try probenecid- it is pretty safe as drugs go
2)Drink Huge amounts of water-and I mean HUGE- maybe 6 liters or more on non ride days-and "even more" on ride days
3)I would NEVER NEVER allow my urine to be "dark yellow orange"-(or I would literally test the SG of my urine-simple float device can read SG)but other folks will be satisfied eyeballing the color
4)I would take to heart what the article says about Ph
Anyway I would certainly try probenecid-the only downside in bike riders is you guys are NUTS- and ride too long-and almost certainly become dehydrated(some of you)
because you really really really have to drink HUGE amounts of water- WHILE RIDING- to prevent dehydration-which is strongly contraindicated if you take probenecid
I once lost 6.5 lbs in 45 minutes-and I was already slightly dehydrated.
Now I was TRYING to lost weight-college wrestling making weight-and I was just 135 lbs or so
So safe bet SOME of you(who probably weight 160 or more)-in mid summer-doing 20 mph or more-will lose ALMOST 8 lbs/hr-a full gallon
Granted I was wearing 2 cotton sweat suits and two vinyl-but I was already a bit dry-and the room wasn't hot-AC-
so 8lbs/hr is entirely possible
But probenecid is a reasonably safe drug-keeping in mind the dehydration warning-cheap too(or it was cheap-the various Generic manufacturers have been price fixing lately-various "shortages" almost certainly "gentleman's agreements" "We will make X- and decrease our production of Y- You make Y-decrease production of X" to create shortages of various generics
Frankly that are a good reason to bring Pharm. manufacturing HOME-USA- offer significant incentives-tax breaks-to manufacture in your state-
Anyway I would go to medscape-lotta up to date gout info-it is where many MDs go to do CME( it is free-and the articles are generally "peer reviewed" in some fashion(not that that ensures they are "right")
but that is a different story
10-14-14, 08:16 AM
#84
your god hates me
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(I'm trying to be charitible, since I too am in exactly the same predicament as OP, and I like my doctor.)
But I agree with the folks who have suggested that the medical industry's standard alert threshold may have changed recently, and/or that PCP's are running out of diseases to treat on the healthy segment of the population (small as it may be) and so had to invent this new one. I read all the suggested literature on how to deal with being pre-diabetic and it's like reading a diary: Yep, did that, did that, do that every day, that's me, blah blah blah.
If I'm really going to have to stop drinking coffee and beer in order to get my numbers out of the pre-diabetic alert zone, they can kiss my ass.
Last edited by Bob Ross; 10-14-14 at 08:19 AM.
10-14-14, 08:52 AM
#85
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Well, perhaps not "crazy" so much as "hyper-vigilant".
(I'm trying to be charitible, since I too am in exactly the same predicament as OP, and I like my doctor.)
But I agree with the folks who have suggested that the medical industry's standard alert threshold may have changed recently, and/or that PCP's are running out of diseases to treat on the healthy segment of the population (small as it may be) and so had to invent this new one. I read all the suggested literature on how to deal with being pre-diabetic and it's like reading a diary: Yep, did that, did that, do that every day, that's me, blah blah blah.
If I'm really going to have to stop drinking coffee and beer in order to get my numbers out of the pre-diabetic alert zone, they can kiss my ass.
(I'm trying to be charitible, since I too am in exactly the same predicament as OP, and I like my doctor.)
But I agree with the folks who have suggested that the medical industry's standard alert threshold may have changed recently, and/or that PCP's are running out of diseases to treat on the healthy segment of the population (small as it may be) and so had to invent this new one. I read all the suggested literature on how to deal with being pre-diabetic and it's like reading a diary: Yep, did that, did that, do that every day, that's me, blah blah blah.
If I'm really going to have to stop drinking coffee and beer in order to get my numbers out of the pre-diabetic alert zone, they can kiss my ass.
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10-14-14, 05:23 PM
#86
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Well, perhaps not "crazy" so much as "hyper-vigilant".
(I'm trying to be charitible, since I too am in exactly the same predicament as OP, and I like my doctor.)
But I agree with the folks who have suggested that the medical industry's standard alert threshold may have changed recently, and/or that PCP's are running out of diseases to treat on the healthy segment of the population (small as it may be) and so had to invent this new one. I read all the suggested literature on how to deal with being pre-diabetic and it's like reading a diary: Yep, did that, did that, do that every day, that's me, blah blah blah.
If I'm really going to have to stop drinking coffee and beer in order to get my numbers out of the pre-diabetic alert zone, they can kiss my ass.
(I'm trying to be charitible, since I too am in exactly the same predicament as OP, and I like my doctor.)
But I agree with the folks who have suggested that the medical industry's standard alert threshold may have changed recently, and/or that PCP's are running out of diseases to treat on the healthy segment of the population (small as it may be) and so had to invent this new one. I read all the suggested literature on how to deal with being pre-diabetic and it's like reading a diary: Yep, did that, did that, do that every day, that's me, blah blah blah.
If I'm really going to have to stop drinking coffee and beer in order to get my numbers out of the pre-diabetic alert zone, they can kiss my ass.
10-14-14, 06:16 PM
#87
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Well, perhaps not "crazy" so much as "hyper-vigilant".
(I'm trying to be charitible, since I too am in exactly the same predicament as OP, and I like my doctor.)
But I agree with the folks who have suggested that the medical industry's standard alert threshold may have changed recently, and/or that PCP's are running out of diseases to treat on the healthy segment of the population (small as it may be) and so had to invent this new one. I read all the suggested literature on how to deal with being pre-diabetic and it's like reading a diary: Yep, did that, did that, do that every day, that's me, blah blah blah.
If I'm really going to have to stop drinking coffee and beer in order to get my numbers out of the pre-diabetic alert zone, they can kiss my ass.
(I'm trying to be charitible, since I too am in exactly the same predicament as OP, and I like my doctor.)
But I agree with the folks who have suggested that the medical industry's standard alert threshold may have changed recently, and/or that PCP's are running out of diseases to treat on the healthy segment of the population (small as it may be) and so had to invent this new one. I read all the suggested literature on how to deal with being pre-diabetic and it's like reading a diary: Yep, did that, did that, do that every day, that's me, blah blah blah.
If I'm really going to have to stop drinking coffee and beer in order to get my numbers out of the pre-diabetic alert zone, they can kiss my ass.
10-16-14, 08:26 AM
#88
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Good post. One thing that we need to remember is that doctors are people - they can be right, they can be wrong, they can be honest or dishonest. They can also be people and health motivated, or profit motivated. It is up to us to be diligent to study what is happening to our bodies, and discerning in who we call our physician(s).
Or, maybe it is the coffee and beer...
Last edited by Bob Ross; 10-16-14 at 08:42 AM. Reason: typo
10-16-14, 08:30 AM
#89
Tractorlegs
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Yeah, the thing that bugs me most about my situation is that there wasn't a whole lot of personalized involvement: My bloodwork came back from the lab and was reveiwed by a Medical Technician, who noted that one or two of my numbers were higher (or lower?) than some apparently agreed-upon threshold, so she copied a stock "Pre-Diabetic Alert" paragraph from her database and pasted that into her assesment [sic] of my bloodwork that was handed off to my doctor...and then he (rather unusually for this particular doctor, though I suspect this is very common in the industry) didn't bother discussing with me how my lifestyle might -- or might not -- contribute to this scenario, he just gave me his boilerplate This Is What To Do If You're Pre-Diabetic speech & pamphlets. If either the doc or the MT had bothered to compare the interview portion of my physical with the bloodwork I'm convinced they would have come up with some more revealing questions and or a more personalized solution. And possibly even reached the conclusion that it might be a false-positive.
Meh...
Meh...
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