trail_monkey

Take a look at these two pictures and tell me which one my body angles look the best on. It's going to be tough because there's only 10 millimeters difference in stem length. The first picture will be with the 80 millimeter stem and the second picture will be with the 90. I've got the fitting of this bike almost dialed in. I am just trying to perfect it right now.

trail_monkey

Here's the 80

trail_monkey

Here's the 90

Spoonrobot 

Diagnosing a stem +/- 10mm is usually done by interview and not picture analysis. No one is going to be able to give you any useful advice just by looking at those two pictures.

How does you back feel? How do your hands feel? How long have you ridden each stem? Do you have pain anywhere when you normally ride?

If you really want to dial in your fit I'd recommend you ride for whatever maximum you usually ride with one stem, then try the same thing with the other. I mean, if one does not feel obviously better than the other it's just preference at that point.

trail_monkey

You're probably right I was wondering when I posted if anybody could tell the difference. I apologize for that. The 80 millimeter stem has been on the bike since December and I have logged probably over 500 miles on it. I have no soreness or no pain and for all intensive purposes it felt fine but I have just been wondering lately if maybe I shouldn't be a little more stretched out. All I am doing is experimenting I really don't know if one feels much better than the other. And I have not taken the 90 on any decent rides yet so I have no answer on that.

Spoonrobot 

Well sounds like you should try the 90 and see how it works. Most people have a range of stems that work fine.

trail_monkey

Honestly my body's pretty adaptable. I'm flexible and limber but I am 46 years old and getting up there in age LOL. My problem is is that I'm always out for absolute perfection and I can't stop messing with my bikes. I've actually gained a comical reputation with my riding group. During a break I will pull out my multi-tool and tweak this or tweak that and everybody just says "What Cory's adjusting his bike again no way!" I find it humorous but true.....

Loose Chain

Well in your lower photo the stem is obviously 10mm longer, duh.

You should bend your elbows, forearms level.

Carbonfiberboy 

I'd go with the 90. Have a look at this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...discovery.html

So you should try rolling your pelvis forward to straighten your back all the way from your shoulders to just below your belt line. See how rounded your lower back is? If you do that, you'll move your shoulders forward a bit, which will give you that sought-after 90° angle between torso and upper arms with the 90 mm stem.

Also bend your elbows about 15°. Bent elbows absorb road shock and will give you a more comfortable and stable ride. Interestingly, as you bend your elbows your torso gets lower, so that 90° angle remains pretty much unchanged, all the way down to horizontal forearms.

I think you could raise your saddle a bit, too. Try the heel-on-pedal = locked out knee and see if that works with your current saddle height.

trail_monkey

The saddle is perfect I use the heel on pedal method to determine it. If you roll your pelvis forward aren't you forcing yourself to hold a position? I mean I just sit on the seat and lean forward and grab the bars that should be what's natural not forcing my pelvis into the seat which could cause irritation on some private parts LOL.

Spoonrobot 

There's a school of thought that you can teach a person to consciously change their kinetic position long-term by using mindful riding, I see this for running and walking as well. Roll your hips, increase your stride, flatten your back, etc. IME it doesn't work and is usually just hot air. Position is changed by getting stronger, more flexible, losing weight or getting contact items that fit your body better (shoes, saddle, etc.)

Telling someone to just roll their pelvis forward is ridiculous and reminds me of going to a cyclocross clinic where the instructors method of teaching was to just yell "now go faster" - not helpful.

Anyway, my point being that I agree with you. If you're riding fine now I wouldn't worry about 15° or 90° and just keep riding.

Carbonfiberboy 

As Spoonrobot pointed out, one needs to be taught to run and swim efficiently. If he were right about it not working, all coaches, fitters, etc., would be out of a job. In fact it works very well. We aren't born knowing math, either. The teaching and learning process is a real thing. I was finally taught to sit and pedal correctly by a fitter after I'd be riding for over 40 years.

As you roll your pelvis forward, you'll feel your butt bones come up off the saddle, being replaced by the bones of your pelvic arch, which should lift your perineum off the saddle quite nicely. An issue you might discover is that the reason you are using your current position is that your hamstrings are tight. Rolling the pelvis does require a certain amount of flexibility. Flexibility is a good thing though, certainly not a bad thing, and having a straighter back reduces back and neck pain. Bending the elbows requires both flexibility and strength. If you don't want those things, don't bother.

No one's going to force you to ride in any particular fashion. Ignore my advice and ride any way you want. I thought the thread title was "Rate my form," my bad.

berner

Nothing wrong with trying to improve things with seemingly minor tweaks. I do it all the time even if the current position seems fine. Occasionally, such a minor change that did not work out 6 months previously, will work fine now. Fitness is changing all the time. Even the Universe has not remained the same from it's very first moment.

trail_monkey

Why the hostility dude? I asked a simple question because what you said I did not understand.

Carbonfiberboy 

Sorry, I was just tired.

trail_monkey

Hey it's all good bud. Been there done that myself. I am back on the 80 but I got it flipped and lowered 1 cm. Instead of being at seat height it is now below seat height. I feel like my arm to torso angle is better on the 80 than the 90 but I got to admit I wonder how the 90 would feel flipped and lowered....... That's something I never tried. During a ride yesterday I started with it flipped and 5 miles in I shifted a spacer to drop it even more. It was only a 16 mile gravel ride but it had 1750 feet of elevation and I fought a 24 mph south wind the whole time with occasional gusts higher than that. It was a brutal ride. But after this ride my lower back feels better than it did after a longer ride with less elevation and having the bars higher. During this ride I worked on flattening my back and relaxing my shoulders and yes rolling my pelvis as I flattened my back. As long as I can keep remembering those key things, I will get better.

This is a 58 frame with a long TT typical of a lot of adventure bikes these days. Everyone says that if you need a stem of a certain length (shorter than normal) that the bike is too large for you. When I was frame shopping last fall it was between this Wolverine and a Kona sutra (both long TT bikes). I personally talked on the phone to a dude from Kona and he said that the Sutra had a long TT and that allowed for a shorter stem to be used. I heard a record scratch in my head and I said to him wait a minute isn't that a no no on a road style bike. He said not at all, it is what fits you personally. I believe he said on his Kona Sutra or Rove (can't remember which one) bike he was running a 60 or 70 mm stem. I started to open up my way of thinking after that conversation and try not to believe everything people say on the internet regarding stem length. The whole purpose of this thread is because I was falling into that trap and I "thought" I needed a 90 to "get more stretched out". I should have listened to my gut not every posting on every forum out there.

Carbonfiberboy 

All so true. Lower is sure better in a headwind! I've worked with people with back problems who benefited from getting lower. It's possible that one of the benefits is getting your spine more in flexion than compression on the bumpy stuff. My wife has a bike with a 50 stem. Works fine for her. I usually run a 90 or 100, but that's just from my body dimensions. To be sure of having the stretch right, look in the mirror: with your hands on the hoods, bend your elbows until your forearms are horizontal and see if your upper arm makes ~90° angle with your torso, with the straightened back. I like my elbows in front of my knees in that position.

That said, if you look at recent pro photos, you can see that many of them have gone to small bikes and are all scrunched up. Smaller is lighter and stiffer and I don't think they care as much about comfort as speed. Anyway, there's no one "right fit."

philbob57

Hate to butt in here with a warning, but it may do someone some good. The bend in your lower back could lead to lower back problems in the future. Rolling your pelvis forward so your back is straight will probably help prevent that, especially if you spend a lot of time on your bike. (I have an L4/L5 disc problem - lower back - and rolling my pelvis forward allows me to ride without exacerbating it.)

trail_monkey

If you read my above post I put something in there about how I was curious how that 90° stem would work if it was inverted as I never took it for a decent ride before removing it. Well this afternoon I put it back on and inverted it with the same spacer set up and went for a 16-mile ride with the same amount of elevation. Essentially I went on the same ride I did yesterday. I will say I felt better when I was done and although I couldn't see my profile it almost felt like my back was flattening out just from the extra reach. But after the ride I did put a one centimeter spacer from the top back underneath the stem and left it inverted as I felt like my little tiny skinny man belly was riding on the tops of my thighs LOL
Now I just need to go for another ride with the 90 stem on there inverted one centimeter higher than it was on today's ride and see how that feels. Right now the stem is probably a centimeter or two below the nose of the saddle which is actually tilted up just a little bit.

trail_monkey

You know what I'm discovering is extremely hard? I can ride and have total Bliss with relaxed shoulders and elbows and I just feel in harmony with my bike. But then when I get on an extended climb or I'm pushing into a strong headwind or anything where you excessively exert muscle force I find that once I conquer my plateau and start heading on the downhill I'm clenched up and got my shoulders tense and my arms and my forearms and my lower back and then I have to take a deep breath and just let everything fall back into place nice and relaxed. I guess it's a good thing that I'm realizing this and catching myself doing it but I sure wish I could stay relaxed throughout an entire ride. But maybe it's normal to tense up as you stand and mash up a long hill or sit and spin up a long hill or try to drive yourself into a 24 mile an hour headwind like I was today and yesterday.

Carbonfiberboy 

Excellent. Patience and mindfulness. It is said that champions get that way from constant concentration. When things get interesting, I concentrate on my pedaling, trying to relax every muscle that's not needed at that instant, trying to have a fluid stroke with no spikes, trying to stay just below the pain threshold if it's a long ride. Flying on instruments, pilots check a series of gauges in a particular order. That's useful, too. Make a list of the 7 things your should check and keep checking them in order. It's also said that 7 things is the limit of focus.

Nothing's normal. It's all you.

IK_biker

Na-ah.
If you study Zen, you get the ability to focus on more than 7.