Banzai

How do they do? I'm considering a Bike Friday Haul-a-Day, which I know isn't strictly a folder, but I figured the folks who frequent this sub-forum are pretty familiar with this wheel size.

I'm especially concerned about the little one on the back, and their ride if the roads get a bit less than desirable.

Abu Mahendra

How rough? This rough, or rougher...

Banzai

I can think of one little stretch about that rough. But for the most part, we're talking city streets that are in need of some TLC, with potholes, patches that are as bad as the potholes, and some nasty track crossings. Generally not as bad as those pictures.

invisiblehand

Big Apple 20x2.0" tires are great for typical US roads. Lots of other choices available.

dorkypants

It depends a lot on the tolerance of the driver and the passengers, as well as how fast/slow you expect to go. I've ridden my Air Friday (28-451 tires, aka 20"x1-1/8) on trails paved with tennis ball-sized rocks at about 5% gradient, but I wasn't hauling anything heavier than a hydration pack (maybe 10 lb/4.5 kg) and not going terribly fast (maybe walking pace?).

My companions, who were on MTBs, were astonished.

FBinNY 

No matter how you slice it, smaller wheels are a drawback on rough roads, both in therms of the harshness of the ride and in effort to keep the bike going.

The problem is where on the wheel a bump of given size will hit. In the extreme case, a wall need only be as high as the wheel's radius to be equal to a 10' obstacle, but the same issue applies to all bumps.

Imagine (or sketch) a wheel coming to a bump like a driveway or opposite end of a pot hole. What matters is the angle of a tangent to the wheel, which will divide the impact into two vectors one each horizontal and vertical. The more vertical that tangent line is, the greater the horizontal component which you'll feel as a backward jolt. If it's large enough, it could even stop the bike and have you pitching over the bars, but that's the exception.

Also consider the horizontal distance from that point of impact to the bottom of the wheel. That will determine how much time the wheel has to rise. The shorter that distance the greater the needed rise speed and the harder the jolt.

All this isn't to deter you, but to give you a sense of what's involved. IMO, bumps under an inch, won't be an issue, 1-2" including some driveway curbs, and raised sewer grates will be manageable, but you'll notice the difference. A step of 3-4" or so like in that photo, will be rough, and if it's any more frequent than a rear exception you'll wish you'd stuck with bigger wheels. Likewise with a steady diet of bumps in the 1-2" range.

Larger tires will help, but at the cost of greater rolling resistance.

All of this may not matter for a utility bike that's only used for short hops, but IMO 10 miles of small wheels on bad roads won't be much fun.

Banzai

This thread basically outlines my concerns. I've been researching/shopping Longtail cargo bikes for a little bit now. The Dummy is probably still the top contender, but the flexibility of the Haul-a-Day is so very appealing. It's just the wheel size that's putting me off, which is ironic since the wheel size is what makes most of that flexibility even possible.

linberl

On my bike Friday, riding crappy city streets with potholes, chunks broken loose, etc., it is generally not an issue. That is because I get out of the saddle when I see a problem coming. I use my BF like a mini cargo bike and carry 3-4 grocery bags worth of stuff often. The weight actually helps with the crappy roads. My tires are marathon racers, 35mm, so not super wide. I've never had a problem with handling of the bike probably due to the low center of gravity, I don't have a thudbuster on my seat post (Brooks no-spring saddle, though). I'm 67 years old and it is not a problem for me. The only time the wheels are an issue is if there's sand or loose gravel or rocks for more than a short distance- that can be really annoying. I'd suggest borrowing or renting a 20" wheeled bike and trying it - even a kid's or bmx
bike would give you some sense of it. My friend runs Big Apples and is much more tolerant of gravel terrain than I.

downtube

Please understand noone will be able to answer this question for you. In that noone has the same body structure, nor instincts.

I think you can modify the bike to your needs with a suspension fork, balloon tires, and super soft grips. I would encourage you to give it a shot.

Thanks
Yan

sunburst

OK, have to comment on the many parallels here. I ride a NWT Bike Friday, running 35mm Marathan Racers, Brooks B17, 62 yo. My favorite bike (out of 10?) by far.

But back to the OP. I decided on this bike because of the 20" wheels, rather than 16". I just couldn't imagine hitting the streets on 16" wheels. Didn't know much about BF at the time (and didn't expect it to be so rideable!). And even though I avoid road hazards, the bike does very well on smoothish hardback dirt trails.

Banzai

It's only partly about me. I don't really need all that stuff...I plan to put a kid or two on the back, and jouncing them around too much is a bigger concern than anything else.

Tradeoffs: A 26" wheel with fatter tires will give them a better ride, but a tippier load for me to pedal. A 20" will make the load more stable for me, but might rattle like crazy on imperfect roads.

downtube

I used an aluminum front suspension 20" wheel bike with a baby seat for about a year. I used a Topeak babyseat with suspension built in. My baby slept in it every time I took her out.

Thanks
Yan

fietsbob

Running Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires, 406-47(20x1.75") on my Bike Friday Pocket Llama . they're fine. with what ever surface I encounter.



Don't Plow thru stuff you can go around.. , and stop and walk the bike over, if it looks difficult to ride through ..

Low Frame tube frames of Bi-Fri, are easy to dismount , like a step Thru Frame.. swing leg ahead of the saddle ..





...

Banzai

That's good to know. I think the Haul-a-day might be the leading contender for a cargo bike purchase.

linberl

Agreed...never expected to love this bike so much! I actually tried a Brompton first, but the 16" wheels just didn't cut it on the lousy roads so I started looking at 20" wheels. Comparing the ride to my 700c Trek bikes, I do not find it any harsher (the Trek had 32mm tires). People tour all over the world on them, loaded with gear, in all kind of road conditions. I've only seen one Haul-a-Day where I live, but it was loaded with two kids and their little cycles in the side bags, and everyone seemed to be having fun

Oh, and btw, we are both NorCal, too!!!

Rick Imby

Some other considerations.

20" wheels are significantly stronger and better able to handle the "massive" loads some people put on these bikes.

A little padding on the passenger seat goes a long ways to eliminating the difference between 20" and 26" wheels.

Speed will be pretty minimal when you are carrying kid/kids and most parents become even more apprehensive of big bumps while children are on the bike.

The adjustablilty of the Haul a Day to different sized riders is a definite plus.

When climbing over obstructions the back wheel will be under power usually which also impacts positively the dynamic of going over bumps.

This bike is an amazing value from my perspective...

invisiblehand

My kids used to fall asleep all the time on 20" wheels in a trailer.

After a decade of riding on 20" wheels, unless you're going off road on some serious single track stuff, there is really no reason to shy away from them with regards to safety and comfort. The few instances I saw serious road hazards that would have swallowed the 20" wheels, 26" would hardly do any better.

The 20" wheels are stronger and will make it easier to get low gearing with standard components. However, if you're looking for something special like wide studded tires or wide presta valve tubes, you'll have a harder time than at 26", IME. I think the Big Dummy can fit wider tires with fenders than the Haul-a-Day. I'm guessing that with the Haul-a-Day, you're limited to 2" wide tires with fenders. I would ask Bike Friday for specifics.

Judging from my triplet with 1.75" tires, you'll still be able to get to 40-50 PSI without pinch flats depending on the total weight with 2" Big Apples if you take two kids with you plus some stuff.

jur

^ +1!

fietsbob

One of your several other threads You started on this Topic, I suggested the Newer Extracycle , they mixed a 20" rear and a 26" front wheel in their design..

Banzai

Yes. That thread wasn't getting as much traction as this one, because no one visits the "Utility" forum. And, I have to say, most of your replies to that one weren't quite as helpful as here. Things like "find a Bike Friday forum" and "only you can know" are the sorts of things that have, I believe, led to some of the atrophy of this message board, and have kept newer members away.

Lucky me, I've been around for a while.

Anyhow, it was consideration of the Edgerunner that led me to the Bike Friday. I figured, if I already have a 20" rear wheel, why not also go for a 20" front, which gives some interesting front cargo options, and simplifies logistics insofar as carrying spare tubes, etc. If the ride for the kiddos is fine on the 20" rear on the Edgerunner, then it will be fine with two 20" wheels.

Only problem is, I have no idea how 20" wheels ride. On my current bikes, my wheel/tire setups are at this moment: 700x25, 700x35, and 26"x4".

Diode100

Is it not possible to rent or get a loan of a 20" wheeler to give you an idea of how they will ride, much better idea I would have thought than trying to canvas opinions on such a subjective topic from hard core small wheelers.

Banzai

I've been looking. I did test ride an Edgerunner, but shop test rides never really tell you much, in my opinion. I did, however, ride it through a construction zone, and it seemed to do ok.

I don't know anyone who owns a 20" wheel bike that I can borrow and put through its paces though.

And I'm consulting hard-core small wheelers, because my other option is to ask non-small wheelers, and they'll just pass along uninformed opinion, or theory. I can tell people the good and the bad of the wheel/tire sizes I ride. Why can't someone with a lot of time on 20" wheels do the same? Does riding the wheel size for too long blind one to the faults, and make it impossible to exercise critical thought about it?

linberl

Do you know anyone with a bmx bike? A neighborhood kid? Is there a local bike park where you can give a kid a few bucks to ride his bike? It's not perfect but it would give you some idea to work from.

fietsbob

Call the 800 number or eMail, Bike Friday, maybe someone near you bought one of their bikes, and they can put you in touch with each other..

As a primarily Built to Order, bike there are differences in the single bikes, but you can get an Idea of the way they feel ..

the Haul a Day is one of their few bikes made in a more limited size / option set.

By the way a load on the front of a Low Trail - small wheel bike increases its feel of stability, as I find on my Brompton and BF Pocket Llama..




>..

badmother

We ride them becouse we like them better than big wheels. All peopel are different. What I like may not be what you like. Some peopel have strong opinions and/or dislikes that prevents them from enjoying them. Instead of trying to force us to try to guess what you want to hear you may want to search the forums to see what peopel enjoy about theyr bikes and how they describe them.