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Old 06-21-17, 04:25 PM   #26
downtube
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Keep your head high Yan. I hope it works out for you in a stress free manner as possible.
Having followed closely the Tern frame failures and even worse the cover up of them I have come to the conclusion they are a vile disguising company. I hope they go bust.
I will never buy one of their bike or products.
Really, as you know the frame failure cover ups and misinformation was staggering.
I feel this is simply due to you pointing this out in a public forum.
Pure vindictiveness from a corporate bully that tries aggression and sub defuse rather than honest brokering.
Thanks for the positive note! FYI I think someone is looking out for me. I have not lived in PA in about 13 years, and met my former student from Temple University at the courthouse. He worked there, what are the odds of that happening? I still have stress, but I know this will work out well for everyone.

Might you know how Tern was created? The lawsuit with Dahon??? I feel so bad for Dr. Hon, he must be the saddest soul on the planet. I was in shock when I read the Dahon v Tern complaint. I think it will be hard to find now, I did a few searches and nothing came up.


Thanks,
Yan
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Last edited by downtube; 06-21-17 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 06-21-17, 06:28 PM   #27
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I think this was what I saw back then.
Dahon v Tern: it's now a lawsuit | Bicycle Business | BikeBiz
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Old 06-21-17, 08:25 PM   #28
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Wonder how Tern was turned onto your bike in the first place to look into the matter. Someone with a vested interest in Tern?
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Old 06-22-17, 05:23 AM   #29
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Did you read the complaint? While reading, I became sick to my stomach. I felt the same way while reading the Tern forums in the midst of the frame failure debacle.

Thanks,
Yan
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Old 06-22-17, 05:47 AM   #30
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Wonder how Tern was turned onto your bike in the first place to look into the matter. Someone with a vested interest in Tern?
In the complaint they state that Downtube was" formed with capitalization totally inadequate for the business in which said entities are engaged."

I am still not sure if they were talking about us or themselves I consider our capitalization position excellent, which near 100% growth for multiples years. Look at our 8H ( $899 ) which we introduced two years before they had an 8sp belt drive bike. It has better features than the Verge S8i which retails for $2100. Additionally we introduced a better 11sp Alfine belt drive model in 2016 for $1300. In short we have better bikes, we are earlier to market, and our prices are less than half their competing models. I am not surprised they complained, however I am shocked by the utter non-sense contained in the legal documents.

I am ramping up the launch of our STI Speed 451mm. I hope to get them in early 2018. I would be curious to see how they compete.

Thanks,
Yan
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Old 06-22-17, 10:45 AM   #31
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Did you read the complaint? While reading, I became sick to my stomach. I felt the same way while reading the Tern forums in the midst of the frame failure debacle.

Thanks,
Yan
Plays out a bit like Macbeth without the carnage...

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Old 06-22-17, 03:16 PM   #32
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Keep on fighting the good fight Yan. An honest person is always fighting for what's right.
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Old 06-23-17, 09:59 AM   #33
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If you have the money Tern has it's probably tempting to harass the competition like this. Eventually some will give up, and the field will thin out. But they also seem to have figured out how to ensure their dealers' loyalty.

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Old 06-23-17, 05:20 PM   #34
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I bought an 8H, this past spring for my wife.We use it when we're camping. She loves it! A lot of bike for the money. I can see why the competition is nervous.
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Old 06-23-17, 06:12 PM   #35
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This sort of ensures that I won't be buying a Tern for my next folding bike.

Keep on going, Yan!
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Old 06-28-17, 09:35 AM   #36
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You're in the right on this Yan, I'm so sorry you have to deal with such a dumb distraction. Thumbs up for you and your bikes from the NC coast.
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Old 07-05-17, 12:07 AM   #37
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Thanks for letting us know about this. I was recently looking at a Tern, but I'll certainly not buy one now. I absolutely hate companies which perpetrate this nonsense.
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Old 07-05-17, 08:29 AM   #38
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I wanted to thank everyone once again for the support.

FYI the case has officially been dismissed. I think this experience will benefit me long term, but I must admit it was traumatic to get served legal papers that claim I run shell companies, and I'm a fraud. Additionally, they filed the case as a patent case to limit the number of attorney's that could assist. Honestly I think there are zero patent attorney's in Greensboro, NC ( though I am not certain ). I took it on Pro Se and it worked.

If anyone feels they are a victim of a frivolous case let me know.

Thanks,
Yan
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Old 07-05-17, 08:29 AM   #39
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Thanks for letting us know about this. I was recently looking at a Tern, but I'll certainly not buy one now. I absolutely hate companies which perpetrate this nonsense.
Get a Dahon, they are an honest company!

Thanks,
Yan
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Old 07-05-17, 01:12 PM   #40
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Get a Dahon, they are an honest company!

Thanks,
Yan
The 'Brompton Bicycle' relates that a some point before Bromptons inked their partnership with Neobike International, Dr. Hon contacted the Brompton office and suggested they not do business with the principals of the newly formed Neobike. For whatever reasons they did not take his advice...and the rest is history.
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Old 07-06-17, 01:08 AM   #41
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When you watch the Tern boss on youtube being interviewed he does a very convincing job of being a good guy. I'm not saying he is of course but its a good performance.


The Downtube direct selling approach clearly has huge cost advantages and perhaps many dealers had complained that they cannot compete on price and Tern sales were low. Not a criticism I'm all for direct selling if it saves money for me but you are cutting out wholesalers/distributors and local bike shops from their slice of the pie who may not be happy about it. However maybe Tern felt they could get away with some commercial bullying. Commercial bullying is fairly common and an indicator of a very aggressive company which is at odds with the interview above. Making business uncomfortable for your competitor and making it so they think twice about producing a similar product because of fear of legal action is what it is about normally. It's a statement that you are being watched and they don't like you basically and they will try to make your life awkward. It's about creating clear space in the marketplace for their product and making other options less obvious.

I've read this thread and still don't have a clue of the basis for the legal case. I don't feel particularly comfortable with Dahon either as a company I think both are quite aggressive with quite a lot of manipulation in their marketing and excessive pricing for what often is only average or even low quality bikes. Dahon also seem to claim a lot of dubious intellectual property rights on bike designs which everyone seems to ignore and carry on regardless. Seems like a similar approach at both companies. I keep reading comments that say this or that bike is made by Dahon when it's branded differently even when the bike doesn't even come from the same country and the frame really only looks slightly similar. It's like some people have been convinced that Dahon own most IP rights related to folding bikes and no one else can make them without asking Dahon first.

It's often difficult to see what is premium about them to merit the prices especially the low end models with freewheels and basic components yet 2-3x the price of competing bikes of the same spec which sometimes actually seem better quality. I saw some Dahon bikes in a dealer sometime ago, one had good welds but the other looked quite messy in the same location for a small area and all the cheaper bikes seemed to have more consistent welds. This was the lower end Dahon models which were still expensive. I don't know if the frames were made by Dahon or bought in for their lower ranges but I was not impressed to say the least. I also know of someone who bought a Dahon but sold it on because it was such low quality and kept a very cheap folding bike in preference which he preferred which was better quality. He had issues with the seat post not staying in position because of poor manufacturing tolerances and a hinge issue.

I'm old enough to realise buying by brand is often a big mistake it should always be about the actual product. Even the best of brands produce both terrible and high quality products and with so much outsourcing nowadays it can be real lottery buying by brand especially if you are trying to buy a good brand at a low price which are often horribly compromised products.
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Old 07-06-17, 12:11 PM   #42
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...and local bike shops from their slice of the pie who may not be happy about it.
As an occasional worker (former FT/PT employee) of an LBS, I can tell you honestly that we love direct sales bikes. We don't have to stock them, we don't have to sell them, we don't have to honor warranty work, we don't have to honor free tunes or follow-up adjustments on new bike sales. They don't clog our sales floor, they don't represent unsold inventory.

We are happy to assemble them for customers and charge them for this service, which is free with purchase of a new bike through most stores. We are more than happy to do any tune-ups or service of any nature, knowing that we can charge regular pricing for such services. And inevitably, they will shop the store for whatever accessories or impulse buys they don't make online.

Most shops lose money or barely break even on new bike sales; accessory sales is where it's at; and service is best. Direct sales bikes engage the money-making centers in a bike shop, rather than the break-even or loss profit center that is new bikes sales.

I'm glad Yan posted this here. In case I'm ever in the market for another folder, I'll pass on Tern.
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Old 07-06-17, 01:08 PM   #43
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As an occasional worker (former FT/PT employee) of an LBS, I can tell you honestly that we love direct sales bikes. We don't have to stock them, we don't have to sell them, we don't have to honor warranty work, we don't have to honor free tunes or follow-up adjustments on new bike sales. They don't clog our sales floor, they don't represent unsold inventory.

We are happy to assemble them for customers and charge them for this service, which is free with purchase of a new bike through most stores. We are more than happy to do any tune-ups or service of any nature, knowing that we can charge regular pricing for such services. And inevitably, they will shop the store for whatever accessories or impulse buys they don't make online.

Most shops lose money or barely break even on new bike sales; accessory sales is where it's at; and service is best. Direct sales bikes engage the money-making centers in a bike shop, rather than the break-even or loss profit center that is new bikes sales.

I'm glad Yan posted this here. In case I'm ever in the market for another folder, I'll pass on Tern.
Can that be said of most LBS's though. I thought in the US as well as Europe a huge number of local bike shops have closed due to online sales. Certainly some may get their online purchase maintained by their local bike shop but many will probably buy maintenance parts online and service themselves.

It sort of defeats the purpose of buying an online bike if you don't do the maintenance yourself in a way. Charges from local bike shops will soon add up. I don't think I've ever had any work done by a local bike shop. I did buy a Carrera Subway 8 a Nexus 8 speed bike online from Halfords which was then sent to my local Halfords for assembly and I got a free 6 week service out of it which is their policy. Fantastic deal and bike but that is the only work I've actually had done by a local bike shop. My actual independent local bike shop charges full whack for bikes and maintenance and I have better uses for that money.
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Old 07-06-17, 01:27 PM   #44
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Can that be said of most LBS's though. I thought in the US as well as Europe a huge number of local bike shops have closed due to online sales. Certainly some may get their online purchase maintained by their local bike shop but many will probably buy maintenance parts online and service themselves.

It sort of defeats the purpose of buying an online bike if you don't do the maintenance yourself in a way. Charges from local bike shops will soon add up. I don't think I've ever had any work done by a local bike shop. I did buy a Carrera Subway 8 a Nexus 8 speed bike online from Halfords which was then sent to my local Halfords for assembly and I got a free 6 week service out of it which is their policy. Fantastic deal and bike but that is the only work I've actually had done by a local bike shop. My actual independent local bike shop charges full whack for bikes and maintenance and I have better uses for that money.
The online sales which cause bike shops to close is accessories and parts. Not bikes. At least in the US, the number of people who maintain their own bikes, and are willing to learn to do so, is thankfully small.

Bold points are spot-on, and the last sentence there is exactly why we don't mind direct sales models. Again, most people don't do their own maintenance, and when they find out that getting their direct sales bike running properly is more than just a matter of "some assembly required," they will usually turn to a local shop to do a correct assembly or at least a tune after their attempts to get the bike up and running.

It doesn't take much to correctly assemble and tune a bike out of a box direct from the manufacturer, but you'd be surprised how few people are willing to take the time to do it or learn. Most people who are really into bikes are stunned to learn that a bread and butter repair is actually just fixing flats...
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