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Thread: Khs F20-r

  1. #1
    www.getafolder.com wpflem's Avatar
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    Khs F20-r

    I talked with both USA and Asian reps for about the KHS folders today at Interbike. They said the folder market in the USA is just not active enough to justify importing the same great folders they offer in Japan.

    I saw the KHS F20-R as pictured below and it is a beauty, 18 speeds with 2 front chain rings, 11.5 kg. They told it will retail in the USA for about 1 grand. At this time they are planning on importing only 10 units. I hope to get in one for us. I don't think it will last long.
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    Schweeeeeeet!!!

    Drool, drool....

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    Quote Originally Posted by wpflem
    I talked with both USA and Asian reps for about the KHS folders today at Interbike. They said the folder market in the USA is just not active enough to justify importing the same great folders they offer in Japan.

    I saw the KHS F20-R as pictured below and it is a beauty, 18 speeds with 2 front chain rings, 11.5 kg. They told it will retail in the USA for about 1 grand. At this time they are planning on importing only 10 units. I hope to get in one for us. I don't think it will last long.
    I took a long look at the F20-T in a store here in Japan, which is the same frame as the "R". In the end I came away with a Dahon Helios P8. They're about the same price here, but the Dahon seemed to be far less... precious. Couldn't imagine the F20 with my 85kg on top of it, and it seemed overall a little to small. Something to consider maybe.

  4. #4
    Senior Member af895's Avatar
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    http://www.khsjapan.com/products/f20-r/F20-R.htm

    A US-grand sounds right - take SRP in Japanese Yen (100,000Y) and divide by 100.
    They make some WICKED AWESOME bikes at KHS Japan.

    I disagree with them about the domestic folder market. KHS has a huge opportunity they're just sitting on and Dahon is showing them up in a big way.

    Any chance you could go over their heads and speak direct to KHS in Japan? It sounds to me like folders just aren't a priority for their foreign reps. KHS does a bunch of very nice non-folders - their reps are probably just not passionate about folders. I don't know if you want the responsibility but maybe you could take distributorship of only their folders off their hands. (I think big in business - what can I say? ;)

    I hope you have long term success importing the entire line and I will recommend people speak to you about KHS' if you carry them. My 2003 F20 Westwood has earned my respect but you just can't find these things in the Western Hemisphere anymore.

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    www.getafolder.com wpflem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by af895
    http://www.khsjapan.com/products/f20-r/F20-R.htm

    A US-grand sounds right - take SRP in Japanese Yen (100,000Y) and divide by 100.
    They make some WICKED AWESOME bikes at KHS Japan.

    I disagree with them about the domestic folder market. KHS has a huge opportunity they're just sitting on and Dahon is showing them up in a big way.

    Any chance you could go over their heads and speak direct to KHS in Japan? It sounds to me like folders just aren't a priority for their foreign reps. KHS does a bunch of very nice non-folders - their reps are probably just not passionate about folders. I don't know if you want the responsibility but maybe you could take distributorship of only their folders off their hands. (I think big in business - what can I say?

    I hope you have long term success importing the entire line and I will recommend people speak to you about KHS' if you carry them. My 2003 F20 Westwood has earned my respect but you just can't find these things in the Western Hemisphere anymore.

    Distributing requires a bundle of capital and is at this point too risky for us. I get a good feel for the USA demand for folders since we have a strong presence on the Internet and a comprehensive selection. It is true that Dahon has had a marked increase in sales in the US this year. This led to a signficant shortage. I talked with Josh Dahon today; they are making some changes to insure much better access for 2006. Still, I bet Dahon is the only company that has seen a big upsurge in folder sales in USA.

    I am pleasantly suprised at the big demand for the high end folders.
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    Senior Member Shilun's Avatar
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    Here in Taiwan the F-20R is available for considerably less than that - $632 to be precise, using today's exchange rate. It's advertised as being 12kg, though, so maybe the components are a little different?

    Anyway, here's the Taiwanese webpage: http://www.khsbicycles.com.tw/html/product/f-20r.htm

    Shilun

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    That's a good deal!
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html
    My Tweaked and modded Raleigh Twenty. Lots of pictures and lots of general info on for example a different & Cheap Bottom Bracket solution as well as fork solution.

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    www.getafolder.com wpflem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shilun
    Here in Taiwan the F-20R is available for considerably less than that - $632 to be precise, using today's exchange rate. It's advertised as being 12kg, though, so maybe the components are a little different?

    Anyway, here's the Taiwanese webpage: http://www.khsbicycles.com.tw/html/product/f-20r.htm

    Shilun

    Yes, it is a great deal. Important tax will run about around 5 percent, but shipping one bike from any overseas destination will pretty much eat up the difference. It's about 1/2 worth it to go to Taiwan to pick one up. At least in many countries, you probably get to see a good number of choices.

    The cost of shipping a folder in from England as quoted by http://www.foldingbikes.co.uk/index1.html is simple staggering!
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    Hmm too bad about the shipping! That KHS looks like it could rival some Bike Fridays at a (much) lower cost. Cool bike.
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html
    My Tweaked and modded Raleigh Twenty. Lots of pictures and lots of general info on for example a different & Cheap Bottom Bracket solution as well as fork solution.

  10. #10
    www.getafolder.com wpflem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by af895
    http://www.khsjapan.com/products/f20-r/F20-R.htm

    A US-grand sounds right - take SRP in Japanese Yen (100,000Y) and divide by 100.
    They make some WICKED AWESOME bikes at KHS Japan.

    I disagree with them about the domestic folder market. KHS has a huge opportunity they're just sitting on and Dahon is showing them up in a big way.

    Any chance you could go over their heads and speak direct to KHS in Japan? It sounds to me like folders just aren't a priority for their foreign reps. KHS does a bunch of very nice non-folders - their reps are probably just not passionate about folders. I don't know if you want the responsibility but maybe you could take distributorship of only their folders off their hands. (I think big in business - what can I say?

    I hope you have long term success importing the entire line and I will recommend people speak to you about KHS' if you carry them. My 2003 F20 Westwood has earned my respect but you just can't find these things in the Western Hemisphere anymore.

    AF895, I took your advice. I talked to the Big Fish at KHS USA and the President of the Company from Japan who happened to be at Interbike. They told me that I can indeed get the cool Japanese KHS folders even as small orders. So if anyone is interested they can contact us, alternatively, I'll be glad to assist in anyway I can with KHS dealers in your area so they can order them in for you. Thus, it appears there is no big barrier if US buyers want them.

    I have to say the President of KHS Japan was terrific. He gave me his card and told me not to hesitate to mail him about what we want.

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    @ AF & WP : Nice one! Good folders deserve to be distributed in as many places as can be!
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html
    My Tweaked and modded Raleigh Twenty. Lots of pictures and lots of general info on for example a different & Cheap Bottom Bracket solution as well as fork solution.

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    Senior Member Shilun's Avatar
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    AF, when you do get around to ordering them, you may want to check on the seatpost length. I picked up an F-20 Westwood here and the seatpost is rather on the stingy side. I'm about 6ft tall, but at maximum extension the post is still about 10cm too short. I would guess many of your potential US customers would also have a problem. My KHS dealer gave me the lame excuse that the bike was intended for "a China man" (his words). KHS don't seem to have a great selection of alternative parts available (at least not here in Taiwan), so I'm still searching around. The seatpost diameter is 29.2mm. By the way, the handlebar stem is also a little on the short side, so you might want to check on that, too.

    I'm not trying to put you off or anything. I'm actually very happy with the way the bike rides - it's just that I'll be even happier once I've solved the seatpost problem.

    Shilun

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    Senior Member af895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wpflem

    AF895, I took your advice. I talked to the Big Fish at KHS USA and the President of the Company from Japan who happened to be at Interbike. They told me that I can indeed get the cool Japanese KHS folders even as small orders. So if anyone is interested they can contact us, alternatively, I'll be glad to assist in anyway I can with KHS dealers in your area so they can order them in for you. Thus, it appears there is no big barrier if US buyers want them.

    I have to say the President of KHS Japan was terrific. He gave me his card and told me not to hesitate to mail him about what we want.


    !!!

    RIGHT ON! THAT'S GREAT NEWS! If I find anyone interested in my bike, I'll gladly direct them your way.

    I LOVE the option of CrMo or Aluminum is the KHS folder line as well as the range of components from Deore/Sora all the way up to 105/Ultegra. There should be a bike for *anyone* in their lineup.

    On the note of the seat posts and stems: I'm 6'0" and with the 375 (or 400mm, depending on how you measure it) seat post, I'm at the limit of travel. I also added a stem riser, the Zoom, 3.5inch type. (all depicted on my bike page: http://www.ncf.ca/~af895/bike/KHS.html)

    I wouldn't mind a slightly higher seat-post, just to experiment. KHS would be well served to make a telescoping stem-tube similar to other manufacturers - perhaps that's something they'd be open to once you start dealing with them.

    Shilun: you can use a 27.2mm seat post with a 2mm machined aluminum spacer, if you'd like a longer one. Salsa makes one that would work for you. (410 or 450mm, I don't recall) This has the added advantage of letting you slide the post all the way down for folding. (I find this impossible to do with the stock post; you get about half way and it binds - must be a tapered seat-tube)

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    Senior Member Shilun's Avatar
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    Many thanks for the seatpost info.

    By the way, is the F-20 Westwood frame the same as the F-20r, with the difference in price being down to better components? And if so, is the price difference justified or could the Westwood be upgraded for less?

    Shilun

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    Senior Member af895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shilun
    Many thanks for the seatpost info.

    By the way, is the F-20 Westwood frame the same as the F-20r, with the difference in price being down to better components? And if so, is the price difference justified or could the Westwood be upgraded for less?

    Shilun

    Shilun: I can't read Japanese script BUT if you look carefully at all of the KHS Japan folding bike pages, you'll find some clues that suggest there are other differences.

    Several of the bikes list "7005" in the first line; I believe this refers to frame material: Aluminum.
    The Westwood is steel-framed and doesn't feature the "7005" heading so I take that as some confirmation.

    BTW: the F18-Cappuccino and F20 Westwood SEEM to share the same frame. If you do a blink comparison (flip back and forth between them) it seems the Cappuccino frame has the clearance for 20" wheels (there's a huge gap between the 18" tire and the rear-shock). The front fork would need to be switched but if someone has a Cap' and wants 20" wheels, I'd wager they have the option of the upgrade.

    There's a big price jump from basic grouppos to, say, 105, so I'd say a lot of the price difference is justified but it's difficult for me to evaluate piecing info together from a Japanese website.

    Also: I've done a number of upgrades to my F20-Westwood. The latest has been the 52/40T front crankset to replace the 44/32T MTB rings that came with it. This necessitated a bottom-bracket change as the stock one is a 109mm designed for MTB cranks that have spacing designed into the cranks. The 1985 Suntour double needed a 122mm BB spindle so I put a Shimano UN53 sealed unit in. (spacing is perfect)

    I also put a Deore rear-derailleur on to accomodate a 34T large cog (it came with an 11-30 8-speed, I dismantled the cartridge and swapped the 30T out for the 34T found in the LBS parts bin)

    The way it's set up now, I've got the perfect touring bike. If this one were lost or stolen, I'd replace it with EXACTLY the same model of bike. (if I were able to find it)

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    Senior Member Shilun's Avatar
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    I like the sound of that crankset. Am I right in thinking this gives you gearing from low 90s down to low 20s? Right now, my wife rides the bike more than I do, but I always think it's a bit crazy that, given she has no real cycling experience at all and is not that fit, she spends all her time in the top two gears. I seem to remember reading many years ago that one should set up one's favorite and most used gear somewhere in the middle of the cassette range to reduce chain wear. I don't know if that still applies to modern bikes though.

    Anyway, once again thanks for the valuable technical info.

    Shilun

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    Senior Member af895's Avatar
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    Hey Shilun!

    88.3 to 22.0 gear-inches based on a 20x1.75 wheel (though mine's a 20x1.50).
    PLENTY for me! I may outgrow it at some point but that won't be for a season or three.

    The SRAM system with a 7speed derailleur and 3 speed internal hub looks nice. I hear they're going with a 3x9 system and developing a 12-speed internal hub for 2007. The thought is some competition will get the price of the Rohloff 14-speed hub down. It's sort of the holy grail of gears.

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    Ah yes the S Ram DD. I know almost nothing of these. But i am very intrigued. When i first heard of them i assumed they worked the other way around! A 7 Speed Hub and 3 Speed (front) derallieur. I figured that would be excellent because you would have many of the benefits of both systems. Range. Only the three chainrings would wear out but those are cheap to replace. Shifting at stand still. The fact that hub gears can be very durable. A rather good chainline Etc.

    I must be missing something, why did they do it the other way around? Does what i suggest exist as a integrated gearing system? I guess you could always kinda put one together but...

    Really like the S-Ram company. Innovative and good to see someone kinda messing with Shimano's hegemony.
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html
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    @ af895.. hmm i am beginning to suspect we are both kinda forum junkies..:-)
    Oh dear, you got me started on hub gears ha ha.. well please allow me to rant.
    If ever you decide you'd really really like one (for use or spare parts) let me know i'd send you one since i find them on the streets!

    It is true, they require almost no service whatever. I've seen them 40 years old being used quite a bit and still running dandy. Mine is 25 + years old and it runs as smooth as a brand new Deraillieur set up. In my 15 years experience with the SA i gotta say they are bomb proof.

    As for servicing them yourself, it is really a rare event and not hard! Plus Harris sells parts:

    (http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sturmey.html

    Too bad about the Crackhead LBS's up in Canada (well as far as hub gears go). Are you sure none of the thirty break this mold?

    Let me relate a little story of 'how i learned to love & service my hub' :

    I found something out about SA hub gears only fairly recently. This newfound knowledge turned out to be crucial. I found out that these hubs have rather specific axle thread which mean only specific nuts fit them properly!

    I found this out because i mounted a wrong nut on them and completely destroyed my (essential) axle! I mounted a Torpedo nut instead of a Sturmey Archer nut. The result:

    A E 1 component and a hapless oversight caused about E 70 worth of damage!! This is what a new axle and the quite involved repair would have cost had i let a bike shop fix it.

    Instead i stripped a back-up hub that i had picked up of the street and reserved for just such a type of "catastrophe" and replaced the worn out axle. I was really thinking it would be a problem to fix my hub but when i got down to it (with lots of verbal pointers from Grima my bike goeroe) it turned out to be a fun and learning experience. It took me about two hours to replace the axle and service all the other parts but in that time i got a new understanding and new appreciation for the beauty of hub gears! The servicing made the hub run even better, and as a result next time around (probably not for a very long time, since these hubs are so low maintenance) i will know what do. It basically involved checking out a few parts, namely parts 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 26,

    (http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sturmey.html)

    for wear and tear. Only 26 had any/needed replacement. Thats after years and years of no maintenance whatever!

    Replacing the easy to get to and cheap part took 30 minutes. The rest of the time was spent at (dis)assembly and replacing the axle.

    Anyway about the axle nut: on the side with the little chain one can recognize the proper Sturmey Archer nut because it has a small hole bored through it unlike it's Torpedo counterpart. As for the other side ask and make really sure you got the right one!

    A three speed hub gear or epicyclic hub, with its wide chain and near perfect alignment between chain wheel and cog, should give a much longer service life than the very best 27 speed derailleur set up.

    "The hub gear has the advantage that all of its moving parts are in a sealed hub, away from the elements while the wide chain can easily be protected by a chain case - as it does not have to traverse a large number of cogs. This results in a virtually maintenance free set up, where the various elements can be expected to last for many years. A further advantage of hub gears is that you can change gear with the bike stationary, no more being caught in top gear at the traffic lights! You can now buy 3, 5, 7 and 14 speed hub gears and I would suggest that this is by far the most sensible solution for a utility or commuting bike. If you buy an older commuting bike in Holland chances are it will be fitted with a hub gear. Hub gears are a bit heavier than derailleur gears, and they do not provide as much range or as many gears, but they last and last and you don't have to waste your time looking after them. The only downside is that if the internal gearing system does finally break down it is relatively hard to get to and fix.

    Additionally good quality derailleur sets are usually very costly to replace while my particular hub with gears can found on the Dutch streets as a matter of some routine.

    Quite a lot of the stuff above i already wrote on my site's "Ultimate Bike" Article.
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/ultimatebike.html
    Last edited by v1nce; 10-02-05 at 01:07 AM.
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html
    My Tweaked and modded Raleigh Twenty. Lots of pictures and lots of general info on for example a different & Cheap Bottom Bracket solution as well as fork solution.

  20. #20
    All ur bike r belong Enki james_swift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v1nce
    If I may veer off-topic for just a slight moment...

    Holy chain-crud batman, I had no idea that Sheldon stocked Sturmey Archer parts!!! I was going nuts for months trying to get a replacement indicator chain for a SA-5 hub for my Dahon Vitesse D5 before giving-up and buying a different bike.

    [Gradual echoing in the distant] DAMN YOOOOOU SHELLLLLDONNNNN.......!

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    @ AF. Yeah i am hooked on (bike) info too. Also really dig your bike, was checking out pictures yesterday. I really like the steel and simplicity of the KHS. Some of the tweaks you have done are really inspiring. Your KHS really seems like a bike you could ride for decades without bother. How much Kilometers do you tour a year (ball park) anyway. Looks like you got it kitted out for lots and long distance riding.

    As far as touring goes, hmm well unless you are into touring at a relaxt pace i supposse the 3 gears of an SA are prob. too few. Then again some people tour with fixies.

    It is also perfectly feasible to carry the inner assembly of an additional SA hub with you while on tour. This will amount to about a Kilo. The cool thing is you have all the spare parts and if you don't feel like taking much apart you can just replace the whole inner assembly and be done with it. This is not too hard or time consuming and pretty much full proof.

    The 'Bike Dumpster Diving' situation is pretty crazy (good!) in most NL cities it is perfectly possible to put together a nice mtb, commuter or racer bike from street finds. Stainless steel and chromoly parts, Decent to good Shimano Groupos with some life left in them, Raleigh, Peugeot, Batavus, Giant and other quality frames, Lots of hubs, worn Brooks Saddles, etc etc. can all be found. All you need is some tools, a bit of local knowledge and about 2 to 6 months. But i am all into 20 inch now so picking are slimmer. But hey, i don't really need much of anything anymore. Maybe a few more SA's for future use and a few small bits. It is fun to check.

    @ Swift: Damn, that is messed up! I had no idea the "hub situation" was so poor in most North American Locales! Well it was kinda meant to be that Sheldon's store stocked these parts, he loves English bikes as well.
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html
    My Tweaked and modded Raleigh Twenty. Lots of pictures and lots of general info on for example a different & Cheap Bottom Bracket solution as well as fork solution.

  22. #22
    Senior Member af895's Avatar
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    Thanks for the kind words on the bike.

    So far, I've just been doing local rides - up to about 60km at a time. I used to tour, years ago, and my goal is to get back in shape this season (probably one of my last outdoor rides today - weather's going cold fast here). This winter I'll be on a wind-trainer and at the gym on a lifecycle. BikeForum's very own Machka is a big inspiration - she's done a lot of Randonee, Brevet & Audax riding and posts her travelogues online in the Touring forum.

    This season, I'll be lucky to have 2,000km on the bike. By next, I'm hoping to be up to 5-10,000km. Time isn't a factor, it's being out of shape.

    BTW: I just updated my bike page, changing the layout, adding some background and a few links.
    http://www.ncf.ca/~af895/bike/KHS.html

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    I checked your updated page, looks real nice. Much sleeker, clearer and better lay out. Hmm maybe i should improve my page as well...

    I really like your idea of using the bike for utility as well as health benefits and future touring. I'll be following your adventure with interest! Inspiring stuff. As for weight loss, a while ago i wanted to shed some. I did atkins and cycled about 15 Km / day. Ended up dropping 10 Kilo's in as many weeks!! Are you just doing cycling or also changing your eating habits? If you eat meat Atkins is actually not too hard. I never once felt hungry while doing it except once or twice when i hadn't planned my meals/did shopping and realized i didn't have anything in store that i could eat then and there.
    Last edited by v1nce; 10-02-05 at 08:28 PM.
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html
    My Tweaked and modded Raleigh Twenty. Lots of pictures and lots of general info on for example a different & Cheap Bottom Bracket solution as well as fork solution.

  24. #24
    Senior Member af895's Avatar
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    Definitely changed eating habits! Mostly, I cut out "junk" food - and just about all fast food. I might have a burger a month these days where a year ago it was more like a burger and fries every day.

    I find if I bike every day, I can get away with more junk food. For now though, I'm trying to drop weight and tone up fast so it's a two-part process...add exercise, subtract junk. I don't want to over-do the riding and hurt myself so by doing between 50 and 150km a week but being careful about the food, I'm dropping a bit under 10lbs a month.

  25. #25
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    Hey good on ya that weight loss! That is a very good rate. When you say you don't eat junk does that mean almost no sugar/carbs? Or do you eat stuff like Honey, grains, patatoes. Soft drinks?

    Also wanted to ask about the Albatros/mustache bars you had. How come you took them off again, do you like your straight bars better? I am very curious of these albatros bars since they are supposed to be very good and versatile (Rivendell & Sheldon).

    Rather off topic: What do you use to make your page and the other pages..? Dreamweaver..? I can never get around to learning dreamweaver, i know it can do almost everything but it seems so bloated (too many options) and gobble up so much hardware resources. I have been using Filezilla for FTP needs and NVU for composing. Really impressed by this freeware. Stable, tiny/fast, enough options etc.

    What do you think? Any other web publishing program recommendations or unique features that warrant also using Dreamweaver?
    http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html
    My Tweaked and modded Raleigh Twenty. Lots of pictures and lots of general info on for example a different & Cheap Bottom Bracket solution as well as fork solution.

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