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Old 10-02-05, 10:59 AM   #1
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I spent a good deal of time reviewing the Pashley-Moultons at Interbike. They are manufactured in England in a collaborative arrangement by the two great British cycling companies, Pashley and Moulton.

The space frame and Moulton suspension make these 20 inch wheel bikes unique.

The bikes, like Moultons, can be bought as the solid frame versions or as a separable which breaks apart easily for suitcase travel.

Seems to me that this bike is a good alternative to Bike Friday.

The MSRP in the USA ranges from $2075 for the nonseparable version of the Sturmey Archer 8 speed to $3350 for the 30 speed double chainring Campagnolo model. I tried to bring home the show model top show model TSR 30 dbs (see below), but one of their designers decided he was going to ride from Las Vegas to San Francisco so instead they let me take TSR 27S which is equipped with the SRAM dual drive like you find the the Dahon Speed Pro.

They just put up their web information on these bikes: http://www.tsr.uk.com/
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Old 10-02-05, 05:17 PM   #2
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And, WooHoo!, 28-406 tires/rims - no goofy Moulton-only sizing.
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Old 10-02-05, 06:04 PM   #3
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Cool! I want one of those old timey Pashley roadsters.
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Old 10-02-05, 07:18 PM   #4
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Cool! I want one of those old timey Pashley roadsters.
I agree, they are beauties. Pashely currently no us distributor. The big bikes are very expensive to get shipped over. Hopefully, they will get a distrubor before too long. From what I can see the company has fabulous products.
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Old 10-02-05, 07:19 PM   #5
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And, WooHoo!, 28-406 tires/rims - no goofy Moulton-only sizing.
A very major advantage for sure!
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Old 10-02-05, 10:00 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by wpflem
I agree, they are beauties. Pashely currently no us distributor. The big bikes are very expensive to get shipped over. Hopefully, they will get a distrubor before too long. From what I can see the company has fabulous products.
There is no market for a $2,075.00 dollar 8 speed Nexus hub geared bicycle. The 8 Speed Nexus is undergeared for touring bikes which is the type of person who would buy a Moulton. It's too heavy for racing and not enough gears even for the club rider.

I've seen Moulton's sold in bike shops in Philadelphia but it takes a long time to move one. They are beauties but the 8 speed version is overpriced. A 2K bicycle is not a utility cycle and at that price should come with Ultregra.
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Old 10-02-05, 11:39 PM   #7
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There is no market for a $2,075.00 dollar 8 speed Nexus hub geared bicycle. The 8 Speed Nexus is undergeared for touring bikes which is the type of person who would buy a Moulton. It's too heavy for racing and not enough gears even for the club rider.

I've seen Moulton's sold in bike shops in Philadelphia but it takes a long time to move one. They are beauties but the 8 speed version is overpriced. A 2K bicycle is not a utility cycle and at that price should come with Ultregra.

You may be right, but I note that they sure didn't have any trouble selling it at the end of the bike show. I also make note that many cycle buyers insist on having the simpliest gearing format possible. An example of that is with the Brompton. To me it makes no sense to get a 3 vs 6 gear Brompton thus limiting gear inches. Nonetheless, that's what many riders, especially women, insist on and I don't think it is the modest savings achieved.

Additionally, I might add that Pashley has marketed the Fx 8 with about the same gearing range (http://www.alexmoulton.co.uk/frames....ikes&range=apb), so I assume that must be having some success with this line.

We don't have much of an experience base to comment from, but I can tell you that for us the interest in Moultons is surprisingly intense so far. Our first Moulton took only a couple of weeks to find its buyer.
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Old 10-03-05, 02:32 AM   #8
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Very interesting these Moultons. i was just wondering how much better these Moultons are than say a Nice Bike Friday of the same price or less. The BF would have much better gearing, folding and such. The air friday may even be as good as a frame as the Moulton from what i hear. Or how it would hold up to a PBW, which has all the advantages of the BF, costs the same as the moulton, also has suspension and better gearing.

Is the ride quality/frames of Moultons really that much better than the aforementioned machines? How much would the Dual Drive 24 geared one sell for?
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Old 10-03-05, 07:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by v1nce
Very interesting these Moultons. i was just wondering how much better these Moultons are than say a Nice Bike Friday of the same price or less. The BF would have much better gearing, folding and such. The air friday may even be as good as a frame as the Moulton from what i hear. Or how it would hold up to a PBW, which has all the advantages of the BF, costs the same as the moulton, also has suspension and better gearing.

Is the ride quality/frames of Moultons really that much better than the aforementioned machines? How much would the Dual Drive 24 geared one sell for?
The dual geared 27 speed Pashley Moulton goes for $2550. Is it better than the bikes you describe, maybe not.

When comparing bikes, it's not always a matter of hard value cost analysis.

Think of a high end Moulton as being analagous to the $1800 vs the $24 bottle of wine (taste difference may be apparent to only a few and both feel & taste the same after the 2nd glass); consider a $60 fine wool sweater contrasted with a $750 cashmere (what's the difference, it's subtle and the cashmere keeps you no warmer, and moths will ruin both in short order), or one of my favorites is the $20,000 Monte Cristi straw panama hat vs the $350 model from the same shop, the difference is in the weave only notable on close up inspection. Another of my favorites is the Leica 35mm vs a quality Nikon 35mm camera. Is there any difference in image to account for the marked cost difference?

Is it worth the prestige to some riders to say they ride a Moulton? Apparently so.
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Old 10-03-05, 07:01 PM   #10
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<Rant> In the UK it is all a bit of a class thing. Moulton's are ridden by either a) Knighted architects and anyone that thinks being seen on a 'design classic' will gain them column inches in the weekend style section b) men of 'independent means' [ie upper class twits, royalty and other rich people] or c) enthusiasts with drooping moustaches and no friends that aren't into trains or vintage sports cars that can excuse the price as a hobby thing...

They are definitely nice bikes but madly overpriced. The Pashley ones are supposedly the 'cheap' line as they are an old design built under license from Mouton in Taiwan. Look at the actual Moulton site and you'll see how much the ultra-lightweight ones go for... I dare you!
A second hand titanium one went on eBay UK the other day for 3500 ($5500?)

The problem is that they are elitist and old fashioned in their outlook - a bit like Rolls Royce or Bentley were before they were bought by someone else that knows a few things about selling heritage to more than the few. You are paying for all that hand-built exclusivity and prestige - if they were mass produced they'd probably be about half to 2/3rds the price, and just as good - but then the proletariat might start riding them and we wouldn't want that would we now?

</rant>

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Old 10-03-05, 09:03 PM   #11
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Somehow, for an 8-speed Nexus, a Swift seems a more elegant platform.
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Old 10-04-05, 02:14 AM   #12
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Fine Rant Little pixel ! I enjoyed that .... some real gems !!!
I fear the moulton owners club 'know where you live'

To be fair to Alex Moulton at least the 1st 1960's moultons were affordable,
its just that since then, most have not been.

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Old 10-04-05, 06:04 AM   #13
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Fine Rant Little pixel ! I enjoyed that .... some real gems !!!
...
Yes, that was a fine rant. I might add that in the early years of the bicycle e.g. the beginning of the Golden Age of Bicycling, it was definitely an elitist activity as is obviously implied in the following French advertising poster image from the early 1890's.
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Old 10-04-05, 08:40 AM   #14
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Indeed a cracking rant, yes ho hum mighty good fellow that pixel. I got two (three) words for Moulton:

(Bike) CLASS WAR!!!!!

Ha ha, that felt good.

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Old 10-04-05, 02:17 PM   #15
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yes I looked at them as well... I think the frames are made in Taiwan ( which is not necessary a bad thing at all )
They are nice, no doubt , but the money those folks are asking is plainly outrageous,
dunno why really, maybe they are not afraid to actually make some money ( doesnt happen all too often in the bike biz )

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Old 10-04-05, 05:05 PM   #16
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yes I looked at them as well... I think the frames are made in Taiwan ( which is not necessary a bad thing at all )
They are nice, no doubt , but the money those folks are asking is plainly outrageous,
dunno why really, maybe they are not afraid to actually make some money ( doesnt happen all too often in the bike biz )

thor
Thor, what is your opinion of the Pashley Moultons as compared to the pricing for Bike Fridays?
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Old 10-04-05, 05:55 PM   #17
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I see the Bike Fridays as custom one off bikes.
Not bad....just pricey. Better than the Moultons though.
Of course being a Dahon Dealer I might be just slightly opinionated ..lol

Actually rode a Moulton some 100 years ago in England ( while in the beautiful town of Torqay) Those were rental bikes at the time !!!! ( Actually it was some 35years ago...wow ..lol )

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Old 10-04-05, 06:11 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by brakemeister
I see the Bike Fridays as custom one off bikes.
Not bad....just pricey. Better than the Moultons though.
Of course being a Dahon Dealer I might be just slightly opinionated ..lol

Actually rode a Moulton some 100 years ago in England ( while in the beautiful town of Torqay) Those were rental bikes at the time !!!! ( Actually it was some 35years ago...wow ..lol )

Thor
Thanks, I appreciate your opinions. For down to earth value it's hard to beat the Dahon folders, although I think Swifts also get good marks.

Do you sell any folding bikes other than Dahon?
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Old 10-10-05, 03:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by LittlePixel
<Rant> In the UK it is all a bit of a class thing. Moulton's are ridden by either a) Knighted architects and anyone that thinks being seen on a 'design classic' will gain them column inches in the weekend style section b) men of 'independent means' [ie upper class twits, royalty and other rich people] or c) enthusiasts with drooping moustaches and no friends that aren't into trains or vintage sports cars that can excuse the price as a hobby thing...
I think this is a bit of an exaggeration While you do need to have loads of money to afford a stainless steel new series or even a new AM, most moultoneers ride the more affordable pashely APBs (now replaced by the TSR) or a classic F-frame with all the original parts replaced with modern alloy ones. The very fact that there's a constant supply of classics and APBs on eBay, suggests that there's lots of people seeking to pick up a moulton cheaply. For every moulton on ebay fetching over 1000, at least 10 go for about 100. The typical moultoneer (and lots of nice "affordable" moultons) can be seen at the annual meet up at the home of Alex Moulton in Bradford upon Avon...
http://homepage.mac.com/mikehessey/PhotoAlbum11.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/boa2005/

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittlePixel
They are definitely nice bikes but madly overpriced. The Pashley ones are supposedly the 'cheap' line as they are an old design built under license from Mouton in Taiwan. Look at the actual Moulton site and you'll see how much the ultra-lightweight ones go for... I dare you!
A second hand titanium one went on eBay UK the other day for 3500 ($5500?)
Firstly, moulton do not make any titanium bikes. There are a few stainless steel models, but most are reynolds 531. The ebay one was stainless. All models, except the APB/TSR are hand made in England, and I'm pretty sure the Pashley models are made in England too not Taiwan, though I'm open to correction on that.

Most moultoneers would say that eBay is the WORST place to by a moulton. The bikes are in such demand that excessive prices are often paid on eBay by people who know no different, and this often astounds moultoneers. Someone paid 35 for a worn second hand copy of Tony Hadland's "The Moulton Bicycle", when a new copy can be easily got for 20 !! The best place to buy a second hand moulton is from the sales and wants list on the moulton bicycle club's website, or in the quarterly magazine, or at the BOA weekend. Membership of the club is only 12 per year - hardly exclusive!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittlePixel
The problem is that they are elitist and old fashioned in their outlook - a bit like Rolls Royce or Bentley were before they were bought by someone else that knows a few things about selling heritage to more than the few. You are paying for all that hand-built exclusivity and prestige - if they were mass produced they'd probably be about half to 2/3rds the price, and just as good - but then the proletariat might start riding them and we wouldn't want that would we now?
</rant>
Comparing a Roller or a Bentley to a Moulton is a bit far fetched. Moultons are light, rigid, comfortable. They have consistently challenged the design of the conventional bicycle. Moulton designs have never been old fashioned.

You are correct about mass production, though. If they were mass produced and cleverly marketed, they would sell much more. I'm sure there is an element of being different (as distinct from being exclusive) that attracts some people to moultons. People who like to be seen to be different, and hate following the pack. If they became too popular/common, these would move on to something else. But there is a certain satisfaction in knowing that your bike has been designed and manufactured because the designer believed that every detail was appropriate for the design, and not because it would be easier to sell, from a marketing point of view. Words like Rohloff or titanium have not appeared in the moulton line up, despite demands from fans, because Alex Moulton isn't yet satisfied with their implementation. He doesn't just throw them into a design to increase sales.

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Old 10-10-05, 03:34 AM   #20
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Thanks for your considered and informative input. I was having a bit of fun really. Hope it didn't offend *Too* much...

I wasn't really talking about the non-spaceframe models from the 60's though. And my bit about Bentleys/Rolls Royce could have been better - perhaps Morgan, TVR or Lotus Exige would have been better similes.

No hard feelings - you have to know it is partly out of jealousy (and someone I've met with one who kinda ticked all my rant boxes)...

Do you have a droopy 'tache?
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Old 10-10-05, 03:52 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by LittlePixel
Thanks for your considered and informative input. I was having a bit of fun really. Hope it didn't offend *Too* much...

I wasn't really talking about the non-spaceframe models from the 60's though. And my bit about Bentleys/Rolls Royce could have been better - perhaps Morgan, TVR or Lotus Exige would have been better similes.

No hard feelings - you have to know it is partly out of jealousy (and someone I've met with one who kinda ticked all my rant boxes)...

Do you have a droopy 'tache?
no offence taken at all

No, I don't have a droopy tache, either. At 32, I might be a bit young for one. Though I have to admit, at one point I quite fancied a fu manchu, but I couldn't afford the harley davidson to go with it
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Old 10-10-05, 04:22 AM   #22
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Interesting post(s) once again. Thanks for that! Who knows maybe this Class Warring commoner will buy a second hand Moulton one day! ;-). I really like them, but probably wouldn't seriously consider them because they don't actually fold as such & the odd wheel sizing in the old ones (what is the reason/rationale for that by the way?). Still i would love to test ride one some time. From the pictures i must say, looks like a fun club to be a member of! Really like that some can carry crazy amounts of bagage.

And what the heck is this?! Looks pretty Funky...!:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/anglepoise/41132416/

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Old 10-10-05, 07:08 AM   #23
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Looks like a Jaguar hood ornament re-purposed as a stem...hehe
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Old 10-10-05, 09:58 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrido
I think this is a bit of an exaggeration While you do need to have loads of money to afford a stainless steel new series or even a new AM, most moultoneers ride the more affordable pashely APBs (now replaced by the TSR) or a classic F-frame with all the original parts replaced with modern alloy ones. The very fact that there's a constant supply of classics and APBs on eBay, suggests that there's lots of people seeking to pick up a moulton cheaply. For every moulton on ebay fetching over 1000, at least 10 go for about 100. The typical moultoneer (and lots of nice "affordable" moultons) can be seen at the annual meet up at the home of Alex Moulton in Bradford upon Avon...
http://homepage.mac.com/mikehessey/PhotoAlbum11.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/boa2005/



Firstly, moulton do not make any titanium bikes. There are a few stainless steel models, but most are reynolds 531. The ebay one was stainless. All models, except the APB/TSR are hand made in England, and I'm pretty sure the Pashley models are made in England too not Taiwan, though I'm open to correction on that.

Most moultoneers would say that eBay is the WORST place to by a moulton. The bikes are in such demand that excessive prices are often paid on eBay by people who know no different, and this often astounds moultoneers. Someone paid 35 for a worn second hand copy of Tony Hadland's "The Moulton Bicycle", when a new copy can be easily got for 20 !! The best place to buy a second hand moulton is from the sales and wants list on the moulton bicycle club's website, or in the quarterly magazine, or at the BOA weekend. Membership of the club is only 12 per year - hardly exclusive!!



Comparing a Roller or a Bentley to a Moulton is a bit far fetched. Moultons are light, rigid, comfortable. They have consistently challenged the design of the conventional bicycle. Moulton designs have never been old fashioned.

You are correct about mass production, though. If they were mass produced and cleverly marketed, they would sell much more. I'm sure there is an element of being different (as distinct from being exclusive) that attracts some people to moultons. People who like to be seen to be different, and hate following the pack. If they became too popular/common, these would move on to something else. But there is a certain satisfaction in knowing that your bike has been designed and manufactured because the designer believed that every detail was appropriate for the design, and not because it would be easier to sell, from a marketing point of view. Words like Rohloff or titanium have not appeared in the moulton line up, despite demands from fans, because Alex Moulton isn't yet satisfied with their implementation. He doesn't just throw them into a design to increase sales.

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Excellent Input. Thanks. I hope you will stick around on this forum.
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Old 10-10-05, 03:03 PM   #25
NoReg
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"I see the Bike Fridays as custom one off bikes"

Bike Fridays are sold as custom, but is it anything more that the fact the frames come in sizes like any frame; Potentially one could sell the front and backs of a different size, don't know if they do; and once you settle on a size/length you can get the "up" with abundant seat and stem adjustments. This should apply to any bike with big posts, including the molton.

Conversely, I am 56/60 on a road frame. My touring bike is a 58. This gives me a considerable height to throw my leg over if the BB is high, and the reach is still short. To get a perfect fit I would need a custom, or at least to scour specs to find a frame with more TT length.
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