deezee

I am planning on getting a folding bike and I am partial to the Dahon line just because I can get one easier. My needs are basically to be used mostly for city riding rarely carrying anything on the bike, and I would like to easily toss it into the trunk of my car to get to my starting points. I would also like to have the ability in the future to easily take the bike on atrip to Europe with packs/panniers. I have looked at the website and the Mu Sl looks interesting particularly because of its light weight or the Jetstream XP because of its suspension. Money is not a predominant factor although important. Can anyone give me recommendations on the best Dahon. Somebody also recommended the Speed TR. Any advice appreciated.

Wavshrdr

Are you in the US or somewhere else in the Americas (I did read about traveling to Europe but wanted to be sure)? This can factor in to what you have available to you. If in the US I would also suggest looking at the Downtube brand as well. I have 2 Downtubes, 3 Dahons, a Bike Friday and soon my Swift will arrive. As for the Dahons I've been quite happy with them. I think if you are traveling a lot with the bike in a case or in the trunk of the car, the internal hub versions are less messy and this is how I custom ordered my Swift. I have taken my Dahons a lot to Europe and the derailleurs are more of a PITA to pack and they get grease all over the place in the suitcase unless you pack them super carefully AND that the TSA agent doesn't take it out of the case.

As for the Mu SL unless you are lightweight rider I'd avoid it. Jetstream is nice but on the spendy side. Speed TR is a nice all around bike for touring and commuting with a wide gear range. I personally like the Mu XL with the fenders and Thudbuster seat post. It would do pretty well with touring but not quite as efficient as a derailleur setup but it should be pretty decent.

I am sure you will get a huge range of opinions. I travel to Europe often and I definitely prefer the internal hubs. Less upkeep and cleaner to transport. I also like the fact that the Mu XL has fenders and it seemed to rain a lot everytime I went over and since my first few Dahons didn't have them I end up adding them as I got tired of getting soaked in the rain there. Of course that depends on where you go but I saw a lot of rain in Germany, UK, Holland and pretty much anywhere in the more northern regions and of course season plays a factor. I would just avoid the super light Dahons if you are a big buy. I love having a Thudbuster seatpost as it works quite well. If you want a plusher ride you can add Big Apple tires and ride fast and smoothly. I figure that every Dahon can be adapted to your specific usage to some extent. Tough to make a really bad choice with them in most areas.

14R 

I would wait 2 or 3 more weeks and get the new 2006 Downtube FS. Having a bike that can have any part replaced at a local bike shop no matter where "local" is, is a great factor that should be considered.

Rafael Guerra

DaFriMon

I've got two Bike Fridays and a Dahon Speed P8. Although it's tempting to plug the Fridays, that's not what you asked, and Dahon is a perfectly good brand. The Speed folds down easily, comes with decent components, except for the pedals (which are easy to replace), and rides pretty much like a good comfort bike or hybrid. I think that any of the Dahon 8 speed models would do fine for the getting around town part of your riding, and it comes down to what features are important to you. I just wanted a reliable city bike, and didn't care about high performance or super light weight. I ride it mostly on roads and paths that are in good condition; the ride can be a bit rough on bad roads, compared even to my small wheeled Fridays. Wider tires might help, like the Big Apples, or there are the suspension models.

For loaded touring, you might consider what gearing range you'll want for the places you'll be riding. Many people prefer a lower bottom gear that they get with the eight speed models, or prefer a wider total range. That's where the dual-drive models, like the Speed TR would be worth a look. Of course, some riders do their own modifications to the gearing.

v1nce

Hope you don't mind me plugging other brands as well as Dahon.

+1 on waiting on the Downtube! Reasons:

It is a small (not for profit sort off) company with a very cool owner that will answer your questions on these very boards. I personally would always want to try and support a company like this.

Very best bang for buck, this is truly a cheap but good folder. This leaves you lots of room/excess cash to spend on options and upgrades which is fun but also potentially very performance enhancing. Some possible suggestions: a Thudbuster and/or Brooks Saddle, an upgraded rack, some panniers, Bike Friday Splittable handlebars, Powergrips or Clipless pedals etc.

Lastly you get bag for the Downtube for free which is really nice.

Alternatively if you don't want to mess around at all, maybe in your price range a Xootr Swift is a good one especially as it is rather light. I am not sure about it's packability in a suitcase though?

Dahon is fine too and they have some really nice folders specifically suited for touring. I personally think the Speed TR is great. Steel frame, comes with braze ons, Big Apple tires and thudbuster. Very suitable for touring, downside, it isn't super light at 13 Kilo's. Maybe even better is the Speed P 8 in terms of great bang for buck (again leaves cash left over for add ons), steel frame. Nice tires, very nice drivetrain (good der clearance!), 11, 8 Kilos etc.

Bike Friday is great but the most expensive but still in your price range i think. Custom build for you, the best for touring. Downside: it does not make for a very good commuting folder compared to the aforementioned.

AWOL

downtubes are pretty heavy right? about the 29lbs mark from the last time i checked their site. their spec doesnt look that appealing to me. i like that the extra $ spent on a BF, Brompton or Dahon means longer lifetime and durability.

v1nce

The Weight, yes they are a bit heavy Downtubes (which is partly due to them coming standard with racks, fenders etc etc..) . But, i don't know about the durability thing.. i'd say the Downtube looks to be very durable, and if you upgrade parts it could beeven more so as well as pretty light.. But the other machines are def. good anddurable as well. What about the Xootr Swift, not your cup of tea?

downtube

Our bikes were 29lbs in early 2005, however they are lighter at this time. The 2006's have 24H front, 28H rear wheel (were 32H front and rear) 1.5" front tire (was 1.75") and alloy upper stem ( formerly steel). We are also losing weight in the BB and fork.

Does higher retail cost imply better durability??? I own a 2003 Dahon Speed Pro that I no longer ride for several reasons.
#1 I am scared to hit a pothole with it.
#2 It has a stiff ride.
#3 It can not be taken on rough terrain...such as gravel roads.

Our Downtube FS bikes are amazingly durable. I jump curbs daily, and occasionally ride down steps. The full suspension is one of the most comfortable folding bikes on the market ( suspension + thick tires). Additionally, I ride off rode with it weekly.

I come from a MTB racing background. I was an expert level racer. Like most early racers, I purchased tons of cool looking lightweight components. However, the lightweight approach never worked for me. Over the years, I have broken two frames, a fork, many wheels, a seatpost (ouch!), pedals, cranks (not a chainring....I bent an alloy crankarm!), and more. After some time, I stopped buying lightweight products!

I believe a bike should be #1 comfortable, #2 dependable, #3 functional (in that order). Our bikes are very comfortable compared to the competition, as mentioned above. Thus far I have had zero parts returned as defective ( bells, reflectors, and rear derailleur hangers are UPS shipping problems) from over 500 sold. I believe this proves our bikes are very dependable. The adjustable height stem and 46T chainring and 11-28 cogs give a nice wide gear range that almost all customers seem happy with, hence our bike are very functional. Every part on the 2006 bikes is aluminum, and the only weight gain is in the fork and shock.....which is well worth it.

Thanks,
Yan

v1nce

Amen to all that! Thanks for that extra info Yan, i did not know some of those things and they make the Downtube even more attractive!

AWOL

wow! you as the downtube man are basically saying riding a downtube folder down steps and off curbs is OK? i hope you arent opening yoursefl up to liability with statements like that? i cant think of any other folder companies that would say things like that.

my comments regarding higher price and durability relates to the spec on the BF and dahon models discussed.

as for weight - you need to update your website then.

brakemeister

Downtube you have to compare apples with apples , The Speed Pro is designed to be a light racer for the road. And in that reagrds it excells. If you do want to put bigger tires on it, you very well can ride it in gravel or easy off the road paths. Without sacrifying all too much road performance. If you want cushy, one can get a thudbuster seatpost.

If you however compare the Downtube, than you need to compare it to the jetstream p 8, which offers a very plush ride, is light and looks good.

As for components, some are indeed Dahon specific, mainly because they have patents on all kinds of folding mechanisms you guys cant use, thats the reason you find some bikes with hideous contraptions ( to circumvent a Dahon patent ) if thats good for the consumer ? I dont think so . All the parts which can break otherwise are available from many dealers around the country as well as a good handfull of different online shops.
Dahon is standing behind its products as well and people can all the guys and get help.

This is from a Dahon dealer ,,, so of course I am biased ( not really as I like Dahon bikes and riding 2 or 3 myself )

Thor

downtube

I test our bikes better than anyone else. I do the silliest things in my never ending quest to test! I don't recommend you ride off steps, curbs or anything else. My statements should be interpreted as proof of durability.....as they were intended.

Thanks,
Yan

downtube

Thor,

I agree we should compare apples to apples. I would encourage others to give their thoughts. I am happy to defend my product against unfair statements, however I try not to plug our bikes.

Please understand my earlier points were related to durability, and comfort.

Thanks,
Yan

v1nce

Well, i'll give my two cents... (please correct me if i got something wrong)

Dahons and Downtubes are both great machines and brands no question!

As for apples and oranges..

However, the aforementioned Jetstream P8 runs at about 645 Dollars (Gaerlan).. anyone have a better qoute? I didn't search around for too long.

The new and improved (lighter!) Downtube VIIIH will have an intro price of $359 and it will be $389 after delivery.

So, 389 (after delivery!) VS 645.... Pretty huge difference i'd say. A lot! of upgrades (almost another Downtube bike) can be gotten for that kind of cash.. I would even venture the opinion that if that kind of money is invested in upgrades for the Downtube it will very likely be a superior machine and at very least just as good and a much more customized one to fit the preferences of the rider.

Then factor in that the Downtube comes with a bag included in the price and that you will have to pay around US 65 to get one with the Dahon and the price and value difference becomes even more marked!

Lets discuss folding. A brief search on these boards wil reveal that the Downtube has simple but excellent folding mechanisms. These hinges have nothing in common with some of those hideous designs that were mentioned!! Apples and Oranges indeed!

People have succesfully done multi mode commuting as well as easily packed Downtubes into a standard suitcases (and more people than Yan have ridden it of staircases as well btw, there are links to films on these boards) without any ill effects whatsoever on hinges or other parts.

As for the Hinges on Dahon, i must admit many of them are beautifully crafted and executed, but i wouldn't necessarily say they are 'better'...

The fact that they patent these designs is nothing to boast about (IMO!). I feel patents limit progress rather than facilitating it (even if they do improve the bottom line of the patent holder.)

If anything this patent business would personally make me even more keen to buy of Yan (whose main focus is not profit, hence the low price) than to support an already pretty huge and biggest manufacturer (in the folding world) around.

Another thing which i really do NOT like about Dahons (that Downtube does not feature) is the non standardization of certain components on some models. Maybe i do not want to HAVE to order a new propietory seatpost from the many dealers in order to run the original saddle but change the post. Maybe i do not want to HAVE to order a new hub or components thereoff from Dahon if something goes wrong with them, especially if i am touring!

Maybe i don't want a

'Uniflex Suspension Fork. This fork uses a spring at the base of the headset (see yellow arrow) and a leaf spring type mechanism closer to the dropout'

(Speed P8!) that has some really odd design and components that if they fail i will have to be gotten from a Dahon Dealer and likely from Dahon themselves, especially if i am using the bike to tour.

Lastly the Liability thing, i think this one is pretty obvious. If anyone would seriously consider sue ing Yan for comments on these boards.. well let me just say that then perhaps they should buy a Dahon because i think they are missing the whole point of what Downtubes and Yan seem to be about.

brakemeister

just one thing, I dont want to let this become a flame war between one loyal downtube customer , and the downtube manufacturer. ( and me , being a folder fan since 30 plus years, having designed my own and being a friend of Dahons , plus a Dahon Dealer )

you say:
The fact that they patent these designs is nothing to boast about (IMO!). I feel patents limit progress rather than facilitating it (even if they do improve the bottom line of the patent holder.)
ok .. let me put it this way. There is a lot of RD testing on the open road, plus testing in a controlled enviroment ( on test machines) in house before something real new becomes a part of a bike. How would you think if eveybody can just steal your ideas and have them copied in a country with even lesser manufacturing cost than the last one around.
Lets say I buy a downtube on ebay, send it to India or Vietnam, maybe even to China, and have it copied exactly.... maybe I call it " Top Tube" Than after the container arrives I sell them for 50 bucks over cost, because I am such a fantastic guy ....



same applies for patents ....


thor

BruceMetras

Durability and comfort vs. price (regardless of model) were important points in this discussion. I agree with Yan that the Downtube FS model is durable enough to be used for more than just city streets and groomed paths, and mine also sees riding off curbs on a regular basis. That's the beauty of the model. I have two FS models as well as 4 Dahons (XP SP Helios XX and Helios P8), so can draw quick comparisons.

The FS clearly seems well designed if not overbuilt as witnessed by it's lack of flex at key areas such as the handlepost and crank, the lack of frame 'creaking', the use of rather large (possibly ungainly), but functional folding clamps, heavy-ish 32 spoke wheels, and the use of front and rear 'shock/dampner' suspension. This all adds up to a very stable 8spd bike which can be used for a wide variety of uses while the rider remains usually more comfortable then on competitor's models, and all at a figure under $300 retail. Usually durability and being overbuilt go hand in hand. Full suspension is certainly more comfortable on rough terrain than hard tails or low travel front suspension. Thudbusters can be added to most hardtails, but at half the price of a complete Downtube FS.

Yan has introduced a series of models which will sell very well and probably reach it's objective of getting a lot more 20" folders into more people's hands to be used for 'everyday' type real world use such as bike paths, bad streets, campus, trails and more at a very attractive price point. Certainly most any folder can be built up to meet the needs of the individual rider, as one poster did on this board with a beautiful Dahon Speed 8 with a RockShox front end, custom wheels and tires and a few other goodies. But as production bikes go, right now, Yan has a winning combination of features versus price, with more than a few hundred dollars cushion between him a major competitor. My hope is that the bikes will be continually developed over the next few years and that Yan remains interested in the venture.

Bruce

downtube

Thor,

You may be surprised by my reaction. I would encourage you to copying our product and improve it. I view my job as a quest to improve society in any way possible. I hope that our business will be a model for others to make society more efficient. If we are to slow to adjust we will gladly get out of the way. It would make me sooooo happy to see a high level of efficiency in the market.

I have done many things in my life #1 raced mountainbikes (expert level) #2 toured across the country twice (north and south) #3 boxed/martial arts (trained by former 3rd ranked middleweight in the world) #4 competitive racquetball player #5 high level chessplayer (beat the world junior speed chess chess champion)...and finished 2nd in a tournament this past weekend #6 received my Ph.D in Math 5 years ago #7 traveled all over the world #8 ran a marathon #9 this season I will compete as a Clydesdale triathlete.#10 University professor over the past 5 years ( full time Visiting Professor positions held at Villanova, Lafayette, Univ Virgin Islands, Furman Univ, and Coker College)

Society has given me soooo much, I feel a need to give back. The Downtube is one way for me to give back (teaching is another). Soon after this season I will publish a book on our business model. I hope everyone copies the model, and improves it. FYI the book will be freely distributed online.

Thanks,
Yan

downtube

Bruce,

Thanks for your continued support!

Since my first bike tour 10 years ago I dreamt of working at a bike company.....I would have worked for free. The Downtube is a dream come true, I will not let this opportunity get away too easily. I'm having soooo much fun, and still have alot to do

Thanks,
Yan

BruceMetras

Alrighty!! Now we're talking!! Yan, next time you visit San Francisco, make sure and look me up and we'll see just how competitive you are...hahaha.. maybe a 'bike parts' vs 'executive lunch' wager??... come to think of it, whether you lose to me or not, I'd be my pleasure to buy you lunch!

Bruce

downtube

Bruce,

I'd accept the lunch offer...not so sure about the raquetball Just kidding

Thanks,
Yan

v1nce

@ Brakemeister:

[QUOTE=brakemeister]just one thing, I dont want to let this become a flame war between one loyal downtube customer , and the downtube manufacturer. ( and me , being a folder fan since 30 plus years, having designed my own and being a friend of Dahons , plus a Dahon Dealer )

Neither do i, i hate flamewars, but i am a fairly opinionated guy. As for loyal Downtube customer, i have never even bought so much as a bolt from Yan, though i will almost certaintly do so in the future. I wrote what i did because everything i have seen, read and heard from Yan, Pictures and lots of very content riders on this forum make me believe in Yan and the Downtube.

ok .. let me put it this way. There is a lot of RD testing on the open road, plus testing in a controlled enviroment ( on test machines) in house before something real new becomes a part of a bike.

Sure, i think it is wonderfull that Dahon does extensive testing an R & D, any bigger bike manufacturer worth anything at all should try to do this or at very least give much thought to design.

How would you think if everybody can just steal your ideas and have them copied in a country with even lesser manufacturing cost than the last one around.

With most (if not all) of my ideas i wouldn't mind one bit, i hope every day more people will adopt some of my ideas. For example i don't believe in intellectual property or patents for ideas or basic goods (housing, transportation, clothing and food). I find the whole notion a bit of a luddite concept that i have little patience for. Everyone is free to use my ideas (and i express many in writing on my site) although i appreciate if they give credit and perhaps even tithe a little if they make a lot of money out of them. But i don't believe in enforcing this type of thing through litigation, patents and other such constructs. I agree wholly with the stance that Yan expresses above.

Lets say I buy a downtube on ebay, send it to India or Vietnam, maybe even to China, and have it copied exactly.... maybe I call it " Top Tube" Than after the container arrives I sell them for 50 bucks over cost, because I am such a fantastic guy ....

It would seem Yan wouldn't begrudge me one bit but my conscience would probably preclude this. If i were to to even consider this (and that would also mean i would have to pay the manufacturers a fair price and wage) i would probably give Yan 10% to 70 % of my profits. And he would probably return the favor by using that cash for increased R & D and new design which i could then copy once again and so on. Everyone could win. Especially the environment (more cyclists) and the consumers (more options, better machines and better prices). Sharing ideas is the only way to make sure nobody will every 'ripp them off'.

But this is kind off a political and idealistic thing. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I may be a commie, socialist, anarchist, anti corporate person or i may not be. But i do know i don't only talk the talk. I try to live it.

In Dahon's Defense though, i have heard some pretty nice things about the Company, ethics and motivations of the owner. I have yet to be able to ascertain them directly though. I would love it if i could, hopefully on day the owner will also be on these forums. I wish him and his company well though, regardless of what i may think of patents and such i am very glad indeed that Dahon is around!

Tomaso

Hi there!

I've been following all your comments on this topic. Even if the new 2006 Downtube is lighter than the old model, (how much lighter? A few grams?) I would still go for the Jetstream P8 (Dahon) cause I think a folder should be as light as possible. Most Dahons are about 12Kgs. max. And a Downtube? 14 to 15 Kgs? That is (n my opinion) a lot of extra weight for a bike that should be PORTABLE. It should be easy to take it out of the trunk, put it on a train, carry it up stairs etc.....
And trust me, a Jetstream does not fall into peices when trying some bumpy off-road terrain (I took my bike through the park last Sunday, talking muddy roads, no asphalt and going up & down some hills, NO PROBLEM!
But of course, the Downtube is half the price of the Jetstream, many people will be tempted to go for the cheapest one.

Now I live in Europe, Downtube is (still) a bit unknown overhere, and so I only know it from this forum and the Downtube-website, I'm sure it's a great bike.

Still, and sorry Mr. Yan for being a little rude, I feel that Downtube is using this forum a little too much for 'selling' its bike to the public.

(Good marketing strategy? It's for free, that's for sure)

Tomaso

v1nce

@ Tomaso, well to each his own. I am glad you are happy with your bike. I simply do not know the relative differences in weight but i will repeat, if the excess cash is invested in lighter upgrades i would be very much suprised if the Downtube didn't end up just as light.

As a counterpoint to your opinion on Yan selling his bike a little too much on this forum. I feel the exact reverse, i wish more manufacturers would be so informative, personal and helpfull as Yan. I also very much feel that Yan mostly informs and does not try to plug his or say his product is 'the best for everyone and in all circumstances'. That his many satisfied (would be) customers are very vocal about their preferences and experiences can hardly be held against Yan i'd say.

If Yan was a true Marketeer he would be continuesly updating his site and trying lots of different promotion strategies. He is not. He is just doing his best and sharing what he knows and loves. Not to make cash but to help. Can someone use a forum a little too much if they are trying mostly to help....? I think not.

Lastly the Europe thing, i live in the Netherlands, everone here that knows anything about cycling knows Dahon and nobody knows Downtube (yet) so even if he was using this forum in the manner suggested, well, i still would not begrudge him that.

Tomaso

V1nce,

I get your point, but if all manufacturors would do the same, there would be no room left for ordinary discussions. Forums are there to chair ideas and experiences. Now a little 'advertising' is no problem to me, but Manufacturors have own websites (and own forums, as Dahon) to infrm the public.

But, yes, I agree, as soon as I can try the Downtube here in Belgium, I will do so. I really want to know how it feels, folds and rides.

deezee

Just me again. This thread has gone off topic. Maybe I could get some more advice on the dahon's that I asked about previously. I have my reasons.