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Old 10-19-07, 07:04 AM   #1
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Do 48 hole cassette hubs exist?

I'm still hunting for a low price Nexus 7 or 8, but I can't help thinking that another way to go with my 20 would be a cassette/derailleur thing, if I could find a suitable hub for a low enough cost. I don't even know if 48 hole cassette hubs exist though - does anyone else? The reason for the 48 is, of course, the stupid rims I bought, and the fact that indestructible wheels would be good.
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Old 10-19-07, 07:31 AM   #2
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I'm still hunting for a low price Nexus 7 or 8, but I can't help thinking that another way to go with my 20 would be a cassette/derailleur thing, if I could find a suitable hub for a low enough cost. I don't even know if 48 hole cassette hubs exist though - does anyone else? The reason for the 48 is, of course, the stupid rims I bought, and the fact that indestructible wheels would be good.
That sounds like a tandem hub. Check Phil Wood.

Pumping up your tire will be difficult with that many spokes on a small wheel.

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Old 10-19-07, 07:36 AM   #3
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I don't want a tandem hub - too expensive, and too wide across the OLN. It won't be that hard to pump the tyre up, remember 48 spoke wheels are very common on BMX's.
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Old 10-19-07, 01:59 PM   #4
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I don't want a tandem hub - too expensive, and too wide across the OLN. It won't be that hard to pump the tyre up, remember 48 spoke wheels are very common on BMX's.
But multi-speed cassette hubs are not common in BMX.

BTW check Soma for track bars
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Old 10-19-07, 02:13 PM   #5
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The Shimano tandem hubs aren't as pricey as the others. All of the extra width is on the left side so you can reduce/eliminate dish. You can just remove axle spacers from the left side and shorten the axle.

I had to figure this out as I recently built up a set of tandem wheels 40h Shimano hubs, butted spokes and Salsa Gordo rims. Now we've decided to sell the tandem, with the original cheap wheels. So I'll have a super tough set of wheels for a single.

It might not be too hard to figure out spoke lengths to allow you to use 24 spokes on a 36 spoke hub. If you do go with 24, be sure to use two holes at the rim, then skip two and use two. Using every other hole doesn't work well.
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Old 10-19-07, 02:43 PM   #6
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Ok, now that's interesting. I know I can go 24 on a 36 hub, and that's what I'll do if I end up with a Nexus, I'm just examining the other opportunities. Thanks for the wheelbuilding advice though - I thought that was how it would have to go, but it's good to have it confirmed. I'm a complete wheelbuilding n00b.

I also know that multi speed hubs are not common in BMX - that was more a response to the idea that it would be hard to pump up my tyres, which I just don't buy. Thanks also for the steer on the bars; the Soma ones aren't quite the profile I want, and since the bike is a 1940 HR Bates, I really want to find something more or less from the period, but I appreciate the help. I've seen a couple of sets on the Bay, but they go for more than I can afford (>$100 generally)
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Old 10-20-07, 04:28 PM   #7
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I'm beginning to think you might be better off selling the lovely rims on fleabay then getting ones you do want, anodising (or powder coating them red) yourself before building as normal. Despite my own evidence to the contrary - As a graphic designer by trade I am in fact a believer in 'form follows function' and it seems these rims are giving you a big headache because of their redness. If they were just untreated silver alloy would you still be looking at ways to fit a 48h hub? Just a thought. I'm sure those bling rims would sell for about what you paid for them...
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Old 10-21-07, 02:11 AM   #8
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They'd probably sell for more, and I'd probably be better off, but you know what? Ain't happening
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Old 10-21-07, 05:33 PM   #9
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I don't want a tandem hub - too expensive, and too wide across the OLN. It won't be that hard to pump the tyre up, remember 48 spoke wheels are very common on BMX's.
But I thought that the flange on BMX hubs had smaller diameters. Anyway, I can tell you that with 32 spokes, space is fine but not plentiful.
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Old 10-21-07, 10:41 PM   #10
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You can get a 48 spoke touring hub from Phil wood in freewheel, that will give you better gearing than the nexus, more reliable also (nothing aginst nexus myself), for 120. The cassette version is going to cost you a lot. If you want to save money, certain DT hubs are a little cheaper, and possibly as good or better.
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Old 10-22-07, 04:11 AM   #11
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The flange diameter doesn't have any effect on the hole spacing on the rim, so it doesn't affect tyre pumpupability, as far as I can see. How is a freewheel going to give me better gearing? Do you mean better in terms of wider? I'd be perfectly happy with freewheel rather than cassette, but my big preference is internal gears rather than a derailleur, due partly to the conditions it gets ridden in, but more due to the eminent kickability of a derailleur with the bike is crammed into a rack on a train. Those things are tight. Thankyou though, the Phil Wood merits consideration. Is that 120, or $120?
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Old 10-22-07, 06:47 AM   #12
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Here in NYC I have definitely seen derailleur bikes with 48-spoke rear wheels; whether that's by freewheel or cassette, however, I won't speculate.
Can you get a 24-hole hub and drill some more holes? I doubt there'll be room on most modern (small-flange) hubs.
Can you thread a freewheel on a BMX hub? I know it'll be too wide, but if the threads are the same, try that; then mess around with (probably: replace) the axle, and you may have something that works.
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Old 10-22-07, 09:35 AM   #13
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The flange diameter doesn't have any effect on the hole spacing on the rim, so it doesn't affect tyre pumpupability, as far as I can see.
It should affect the angle that the spokes take to the nipples which will change where the spokes cross. I just saw a Bike Friday tandem with a 36 spoke 406 wheel last night and the owner complained about accessing the presta valve. He said that it was doable but a pain in the butt. The paint on the head of my bike pump has been scraped off from rubbing against the side of the spokes on my 32-spoke wheel. Mind you, there is a lever on the side that directs the air to a presta or schraeder connection, so it is a bit wider than your typical bike pump.

Anyway, I have never seen a 48-spoke BMX wheel but I have heard of them. Given they exist, I am sure that you will still be able to access the value to pump in air. However, I gather from the experience of others and posts on the YAK group that it will be cluttered down there making it a pain.

Would a 32-hole hub work with the 48-hole rim with the same pattern as the 24-hole hub with a 36-hole rim? 32-hole hubs are pretty easy to find.
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Old 10-22-07, 09:43 AM   #14
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I don't know. I'm watching a brand new Nexus 7 on eBay, and if I buy that, all such discussions will become moot. Then it'll all be down to "Do I lace this a weird way, or just buy an alternate rear rim". The jury is out on that one.
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Old 10-22-07, 09:47 AM   #15
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I don't know. I'm watching a brand new Nexus 7 on eBay, and if I buy that, all such discussions will become moot. Then it'll all be down to "Do I lace this a weird way, or just buy an alternate rear rim". The jury is out on that one.
Yeah ... but talking about it is still fun.

If you like, I can try to take some detailed pics of my wife's Pocket Crusoe with the 24-to-36 combination.
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Old 10-22-07, 10:04 AM   #16
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I'd love to see that. I still feel like if I sat down and thought about it, 36 spokes into 48 holes ought to be doable, but I've not, until now, been a wheelbuilder. It just seems like you'd do two pairs, then miss a pair. Wouldn't you?
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Old 10-22-07, 10:26 AM   #17
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... 36 spokes into 48 holes ought to be doable.... It just seems like you'd do two pairs, then miss a pair. Wouldn't you?
No, I don't think so. It would work with a 32 spoke hub provided the spoke holes are centered on the rim. If you have right side holes and left side holes, you'll have some spokes going from the right flange to the left side of the rim, which may make things weird.
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Old 10-22-07, 02:38 PM   #18
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No, I don't think so. It would work with a 32 spoke hub provided the spoke holes are centered on the rim. If you have right side holes and left side holes, you'll have some spokes going from the right flange to the left side of the rim, which may make things weird.
If he used and skipped in pairs, the spoke holes in the rim would all be angled correctly. However there will be several different spoke lengths needed.

You are right about right spokes going into left rim holes being a problem though. I made two otherwise identical 18 hole recumbent wheels. One skipping every other hole in the rim and one skipping every other pair. The one with every other hole skipped started braking spokes after one season. The other one lasted 15 years.

If I was going to use a 48h cassette hub and rim on an R20 I'd remove all the spacers from the left side and end up with plenty of dish but not have to spread the frame much, if at all. Then I'd use 36 spokes, 24 x2 on the right and 12 radial on the left.

Sammy,
If you do get the Nexus hub. there is plenty of room between spoke holes to drill a few more and end up with 12 evenly spaced holes on each side and 12 unused ones.

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Old 10-22-07, 02:43 PM   #19
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It should affect the angle that the spokes take to the nipples which will change where the spokes cross. I just saw a Bike Friday tandem with a 36 spoke 406 wheel last night and the owner complained about accessing the presta valve. He said that it was doable but a pain in the butt.
He shouldn't have had a problem unless the wheel was laced incorrectly. The spokes adjacent to the valve hole should leave the rim roughly parallel when viewed from the side. If they cross each other, someone screwed up.
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Old 10-23-07, 02:46 AM   #20
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Sammy,
If you do get the Nexus hub. there is plenty of room between spoke holes to drill a few more and end up with 12 evenly spaced holes on each side and 12 unused ones.
Hmmm. Reckon I could drill it so that I could build with all 48? I do have access to a Bridgeport mill, so I could do this really accurately.
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Old 10-23-07, 06:10 AM   #21
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Hmmm. Reckon I could drill it so that I could build with all 48? I do have access to a Bridgeport mill, so I could do this really accurately.
Even if there's room for them, you just have to be sure the extra holes aren't going to catastrophically weaken the flange; drilling extra holes is bound to impact the warranty, after all, and Nexus hubes aren't cheap.

If you can use a mill... can you make a whole extra flange? I'm thinking, make a ring of steel or aluminum with the right diameters, with one ring 18 threaded holes to bolt on to the spoke holes of your Shimano cassette hub, and another ring of 24 holes a little farther out? It would have to attach to the outside of the existing flange....
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Old 10-23-07, 07:22 AM   #22
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It's an idea. This Nexus hub, however, will be cheap. Or rather, I'm anticipating getting a cheap one, and I'm not anticipating it coming with any warranty.
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Old 10-23-07, 08:45 AM   #23
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He shouldn't have had a problem unless the wheel was laced incorrectly. The spokes adjacent to the valve hole should leave the rim roughly parallel when viewed from the side. If they cross each other, someone screwed up.
Yep. I just double checked my ERTO 305 wheel with an internal hub. If there is no issue there, I have a hard time believing that there would be an issue with a 451 wheel.

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Old 10-23-07, 09:02 AM   #24
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I'd love to see that. I still feel like if I sat down and thought about it, 36 spokes into 48 holes ought to be doable, but I've not, until now, been a wheelbuilder. It just seems like you'd do two pairs, then miss a pair. Wouldn't you?
These are older pictures that are a tad out of focus. I can take more with finer detail if interested.

I look at the pattern as a group of three. From the drive side of the hub and moving clockwise, first spoke leads, open hole, third spoke follows. All of the spokes are the same size.



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Old 10-23-07, 09:06 AM   #25
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... I have a hard time believing that there would be an issue with a 451 wheel....
Me too. I built up a pair of 349 wheels with 36 hole rims, and there is no problem there. Someone gave my son a bike with 405 rims and 68 (!) spokes. Now that's a serious pain in the you-know-what.
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