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Folding Bikes Discuss the unique features and issues of folding bikes. Also a great place to learn what folding bike will work best for your needs.

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Old 01-30-08, 07:54 AM   #26
sherbornpeddler
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hub is one issue
chain vs. shaft drive another
lubrication a third

re shaft drive I guess no one argues shaft drive is inferior for race performance. I presume shaft drive is inferior for race and likely distance touring or it might show up on a professional race bike. Weight and energy transfer are important. Shaft drive seems superior in terms of exposure to grease and just something different (cool) even compared to a bike with a chain guard. Being enclosed and few moving parts may mean maintenance frequency may be another advantage. I don't know how long parts last under the same work conditions so it may be wear or cost of maintenance is higher, lower, same?

Hubs: similar to shaft drive I guess weight and maybe gearing choices are not as good; again, maintenance, cleanliness and maybe wear or long term operating costs (including adjustment) are advantages.

Lubrication: Lubrication is good, dry is bad. Sticky lube holding grit on bearing surfaces is bad. Exterior, non bearing surfaces is nuisance. My take away is it never hurts to oil the chain, it's just messy.
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Old 01-30-08, 09:00 AM   #27
makeinu
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Originally Posted by jur View Post
In the HPV journal, there is mention that the chain lube had no effect on efficiency. The lube keeps the chain quiet and the dust out, making it last longer.

Personally, I find that while backpedalling, a dry chain feels slightly more drag than a lubed chain.
What we really need is either Lambda roller chain (chain made with oil impregnated steel) or sealed roller chain made to JIS 081 spec (bicycle dimensions). These kinds of chain are available in all standard industrial sizes, but the only industry which uses JIS 081 roller chain is the bike industry and they'd rather keep selling lubricant.
http://chain-guide.com/applications/...ee-chains.html

In the mean time I'm happy with running an unlubricated chain. As I said, I'd probably gain more in reduced friction by wearing lycra shorts, but, just like an oil free chain, regular pants are much more pragmatic.
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Old 01-30-08, 02:10 PM   #28
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In the mean time I'm happy with running an unlubricated chain. As I said, I'd probably gain more in reduced friction by wearing lycra shorts, but, just like an oil free chain, regular pants are much more pragmatic.
I like a little gun cleaner soak, and then some very light oil once in a while. Wife's sewing machine oil works well, and isn't very messy. Seems to work and stay clean until I go off-road and do it every few months. In between soaks I just wipe it off with a towel. I don't know if the gun cleaner will eventually do anything to the chain... I started doing this on my mountain bike about 6 months ago. Doesn't seem to hurt guns. Never tried dry, but then again I even put a little oil on my shovels.
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Old 01-30-08, 09:38 PM   #29
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Mr. Smith, your reply to the earlier quoted post on lycra pants had me concerned until two-thirds through your message when the reference to chains was finally made clear.

As for shaft drive efficiency, anyone seen or ridden Schwinn's new Continental? It's a Li-on battery-powered shaft drive bike so I suppose pedaling efficiency would be less applicable. Maybe electric assist is the best use for a shaft drive on bike.
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Old 01-30-08, 10:51 PM   #30
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Mr. Smith, your reply to the earlier quoted post on lycra pants had me concerned until two-thirds through your message when the reference to chains was finally made clear.

As for shaft drive efficiency, anyone seen or ridden Schwinn's new Continental? It's a Li-on battery-powered shaft drive bike so I suppose pedaling efficiency would be less applicable. Maybe electric assist is the best use for a shaft drive on bike.
haha That does seem odd out of context.

I hadn't seen the Schwinn, so thanks for the tip. That seems like a good middle ground for those concerned with over exertion and wanting low maintenance and clean pant legs.
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Old 01-31-08, 12:26 AM   #31
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"Lambda roller chain"

Seems odd they would not sell one in bicycle dimensions. Maybe it's time for a JIS 081 "critical mass" at the next TsubakiMoto shareholders meeting. Won't they be surprised.

http://tsubakimoto.com/product/drive...il/10/2/2/1/3/

According to the company history bicycle chain production stopped in 1928, I think world wide picketing on the next earth day is in order.

The other possibility is producing cogs that work with subakimoto chains.

BTW, looking over the site it is not clear that lambda chains can be used in outdoor activities. They do have a nickel plated version.
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Last edited by geo8rge; 01-31-08 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 01-31-08, 01:04 AM   #32
chainstrainer
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Well the Strida folding bike uses a Kevlar drive belt instead of a chain, similar to those used in Harley-Davidson motorcycles, so perhaps someday a bike company will feature something similar to the Tsubakimoto lube-less chain. Picketing may not be necessary, just a little entrepreneurial spirit on someone's part.
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Old 01-31-08, 08:29 AM   #33
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From the Tsu. website:

"No one knows exactly when the idea for roller chain was first conceived, although the brilliant 15th century inventor Leonardo da Vinci produced a series of sketches illustrating basic roller chain. Some of these drawings closely resemble the actual form of modern day roller chain. However, it wasn't until the late 19th century, when it was adopted for use in the drive mechanism of bicycles, that roller chain was manufactured on a large scale. And now, despite the fact that it has been in widespread use for more than one hundred years, the basic form of roller chain has changed very little -- a magnificent testimony to the effectiveness of its original design."

http://tsubakimoto.com/products/chain/index.html
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Old 01-31-08, 08:48 AM   #34
makeinu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geo8rge View Post
"Lambda roller chain"

Seems odd they would not sell one in bicycle dimensions.
Well, most of the cycling public uses derailleurs and derailleur chains have more subtleties than standard bicycle chains (various plate thicknesses, various plate shapes, etc, etc). I imagine the market for single cog drivetrains is just too small and price sensitive.

Note that, if you go hunting for chain, although I've seen standard '1/8" bicycle chain' designated as JIS 081, I don't know how accurate this designation actually is. Chain-guide.com lists bicycle chain as being designated by ISO 9633 and JIS D 9417 (and not recognized by ANSI), but I've never seen chain being sold by these names. Bicycle chain seems to be a bit like the ******* child of the chain world and it's best to look at the actual dimensions to be sure (I believe chain pitch, chain width, and roller diameter are the important quantities for single cog drivetrains).

Quote:
Originally Posted by geo8rge View Post
The other possibility is producing cogs that work with subakimoto chains.
Should be available from any supplier of industrial machine parts. The problem is you'll probably have to drill them to fit your cranks and your hub.

It's probably easier just to buy a bike with a proper chaincase. Then you get the best of both worlds (slippery, long lasting lubricated chain and internal/external cleanliness). Or a belt or shaft drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geo8rge View Post
BTW, looking over the site it is not clear that lambda chains can be used in outdoor activities. They do have a nickel plated version.
Well, there's always sealed chains which seal the bushings off from the outside. The lubrication injected at the factory stays right where you need it and the dirt stays out. Unfortunately, these aren't available to bicycle spec either...probably because they are so darn expensive (should last forever though).

Another option is acetal plastic chains. These are extremely weather resistant and require no lubrication whatsoever. However, they obviously aren't as strong as steel. Still, I wonder if perhaps steel bicycle chains are a bit overbuilt. Although this isn't available in bicycle spec either, it is available in ANSI 25 which is used by Pacific Cycle's Carryme. When it comes time to replace my Carryme chain I may give this a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainstrainer View Post
Well the Strida folding bike uses a Kevlar drive belt instead of a chain, similar to those used in Harley-Davidson motorcycles, so perhaps someday a bike company will feature something similar to the Tsubakimoto lube-less chain. Picketing may not be necessary, just a little entrepreneurial spirit on someone's part.
There are companies out there that will build you a custom chain to spec, but I'll be damned if I'm going to invest in 1000 feet of unproven chain to sell to the bicycle buying pubic. If there was ever such a fickle group of lemmings...

Last edited by makeinu; 01-31-08 at 09:01 AM.
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