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Why small wheels are not harsher than large ones

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Why small wheels are not harsher than large ones

Old 05-22-08, 01:13 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
Agreed.

This is the reason why the majority on the forum thinks the smaller wheel is harsher. Ballantyne was talking about what one does on a road bike where the geometry of the rider is not straight up but in a crouch. When the rider is bent over, lifting your weight is easier than if you were sitting straight up like one does on a Brompton. Ritchie to his credit put a rear suspension to make the bike comfortable and it works. Moulton added suspension because he knew the ride was going to be harsh running high pressure tires even though the geometry was similar to a road bike.

Most 16' inch wheel folders have the geometry of either a beach cruiser or comfort hybrid and become quite uncomfortable after an hour of riding. Here's the reason why. After two or three hours, you can't lift your weight straight up for the ruts, bumps and potholes. As a result, you end up hitting all the road abrasions sitting straight up!

Of course, you can get a Brooks Champion Flyer, Thudbuster or suspension seat post to smoothen the ride.
Interesting thoughts.

I watched that film of Alex Moulton talking about the development of his small wheeled suspended bikes. He claims that small wheels allow extra efficiencies, but that to really exploit them, he needed high pressure tyres. This meant a harsher ride, hence he developed his suspension systems from ideas used on the motorcycles of old.



Moulton film - worth a look -> https://video.google.com/videoplay?do...2343&q=moulton
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Old 05-22-08, 01:13 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by EvilV
I prefer my velocipede anyday over the ordinary. Here is a sketch 'snapped' by an artist I passed of late whilst racing a gig last week.

Huh, easy to beat a hovering horse.
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Old 05-22-08, 01:22 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by jur
Huh, easy to beat a hovering horse.
Yeah - the hovering horse concept will never catch on like the velocipede. Nothing like as practical.
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Old 05-22-08, 01:49 AM
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[QUOTE=EvilV;6739483]I prefer my velocipede any day over the ordinary. Here is a sketch 'snapped' by an artist I passed whilst overtaking an overweight rider last week.

[
/QUOTE]



The only reason you passed me is because you caught me by surprise, and I would have soon caught up with you and left you in my dust, but - luckily for you - my hat and powdered wig flew off in the wind, and I had to stop to retrieve them.
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Old 05-22-08, 03:54 AM
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Sometimes I prefer the horse. Reason is my energy is limited (due to disease) and I am always afraid of ending up in a situation where I need more energy than i have. Talked with some friends yesterday and said what I often do: Good thing about the horse is if you end up in a nasty situation the horse would get extra energy needed to save its own life, and thereby also mine.

Reason for saying this is I told them about an old friend of mine from when I worked in Zambia. She was 86 at the time, british, daughter of missionaries but educated in UK (doctor) and came back to work in Zam. She wrote a book about herself, her husband and theyr familys. Her husband was much the same. Borned in Africa, educated in UK and back to A to work. Once he came back from UK with a new bike(, must be approx 80 yrs ago). By boat to west africa and then by bike following the Congo river up to the north of Zam. Not sure I would like to do that. Much more wild animals, no roadsigns, sleeping in the bush, maps and so on. That must be "Touring" in it`s right meaning.
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Old 05-22-08, 09:49 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by jur
There are other statements which are also dubious, such as certain laced wheels giving harsher rides than others (hooey, the amount of vertical compliance is vanishingly small) and certain frame materials giving harsher rides (also hooey, the geometry and design dominates).
Hooey or not, Jur, I promise you that the differences in both wheel stiffness and frame stiffness are quite noticeable by a rider. Isn't it only logical that a 16 spoke wheel would feel different from a 32? And isn't is also logical that a big-tubed aluminum frame could potentially be more stiff than a steel one with a standard tubeset? C'mon now, you've got the background to recognize the many variables at play here.

I like my folders for what they are, but I don't attempt to make them something they're not.
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Old 05-22-08, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Fat Boy
Hooey or not, Jur, I promise you that the differences in both wheel stiffness and frame stiffness are quite noticeable by a rider. Isn't it only logical that a 16 spoke wheel would feel different from a 32? And isn't is also logical that a big-tubed aluminum frame could potentially be more stiff than a steel one with a standard tubeset? C'mon now, you've got the background to recognize the many variables at play here.

I like my folders for what they are, but I don't attempt to make them something they're not.
I believe Jur's contention is that, different as they may be, things like wheel, frame stiffness, etc can not result in enough physical variation to be important.

My contention, on the other hand, is that small as the physical variation may be, the body is not nearly a linear measuring device. Small physical variations clearly result in large differences in physical sensation in a wide variety of circumstances. The problem with the kinds of physical analysis employed in this thread is that the results must be filtered through the lens of the body.

I for one, am perfectly comfortable riding my 8" wheels over what must be some of the worst potholes in the country. I have a good extra half meter to prepare myself for any hits and another half meter at the end to settle down again, not to mention how much easier it is to control the lighter wheels (while conventional spokes may be good for larger wheels, 3 spoke cast aluminum are clearly a superior choice at 8").

No suspension in the world, whether it be a larger wheel, a spring, or a supple frame, can literally make bumps disappear like the intelligent control of a human being. I am far more comfortable riding the streets around here on 8" wheels than even a car because I hit every pothole with a car and no potholes on my 8"er. As I said before harshness and noodleliness are really two sides of the same coin. Suspension is a fundamentally ham handed approach which, in my opinion, is entirely inappropriate on a vehicle with a dedicated jolt avoidance computer built into its controller.

Not to discount Jur's analysis, but mechanical engineers have a few things yet to learn from video processing engineers when it comes to haptics. While the amplitude of oscillations are easy to understand and analyze, I'm skeptical as to how relevant they really are to actual sensation. One thing that's sure is that that particular flavor of analysis is about 20 years behind the times when it comes to analyzing visual stimuli. That's why all I'm willing to conclude from these results is when it comes to behaving like a conventional suspension, fatter tires (like big apples) can do just as well of a job as larger diameter wheels under appropriately equivalent circumstances (note that "all else being equal" is impossible, for example, spoke count and spoke density can not both remain equal under a change in wheel diameter).

Last edited by makeinu; 05-22-08 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 05-22-08, 12:37 PM
  #33  
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[quote=werewolf;6739549]
Originally Posted by EvilV
I prefer my velocipede any day over the ordinary. Here is a sketch 'snapped' by an artist I passed whilst overtaking an overweight rider last week.

[
/QUOTE]



The only reason you passed me is because you caught me by surprise, and I would have soon caught up with you and left you in my dust, but - luckily for you - my hat and powdered wig flew off in the wind, and I had to stop to retrieve them.
LOL - I like your style werewolf.



Actually, I just returned from walking about 105 miles in Spain and carrying my kit. There were many times when I'd have loved to sail down hill on a velocipede just like the ones in the picture. We laugh at these crude machines that are the forerunners of our bikes and understandably so, but they did provide wonderful relief from walking when it came to a downhill stretch. Walking down hill carrying a bag is a pain in the bum.

I felt especially regretful when passed by people on mountain bikes. It just looked so easy by comparison to walking.


Last edited by EvilV; 05-22-08 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 05-22-08, 12:43 PM
  #34  
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[QUOTE=EvilV;6742240]
Originally Posted by werewolf

LOL - I like your style werewolf.



Actually, I just returned from walking about 105 miles in Spain and carrying my kit. There were many times when I'd have loved to sail down hill on a velocipede just like the ones in the picture. We laugh at these crude machines that are the forerunners of our bikes and understandably so, but they did provide wonderful relief from walking when it came to a downhill stretch. Walking down hill carrying a bag is a pain in the bum.

I felt especially regretful when passed by people on mountain bikes. It just looked so easy by comparison to walking.

Were you doing the famous Santiago de Compostela pilgrimage?
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Old 05-22-08, 01:03 PM
  #35  
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Before I come to the point, here's a little background on my current situation....

A few days ago, just minutes after I arrived at my office, the rear tire of my Downtube Mini blew out. It was a Primo Comet 16 x 1.35 with less than 500 miles on it. I was pretty glad it didn't blow out in traffic (or worse, on the train!). I think the tire was defective; the hole is in the side wall, apparently unrelated to any other damage. Fortunately the tire tread was not affected, so I patched the tube, applied a liberal amount of duck tape inside the tire as a boot, and rode home at relatively low pressure. Since then, not yet having had time to change the tire, I've resorted to Plan B, which is, at the moment, riding a 1969 Triumph 3-speed to the train station, where I store it in the rented locker where I store the Strida, which I then take onto the train so I can ride it when I get to NYC.

So, anyway, I had very recently been riding only my (16" wheel) Mini; and am now riding my (16" wheel) Strida and my (26 x 1 3/8" wheel) Triumph; and so am in a good position to compare the comfort level of these three bicycles.

Coming to the point, finally: The Triumph, with its steel frame, steel rims, and big wheels, has by far the harshest ride of the three. Aren't steel frames supposed to be supple and lively? Well, both Strida and Mini, with their aluminum frames and small wheels, are more comfortable on the bumps. I notice this mainly in my hands; the Triumph still has its original Brooks mattress saddle, complete with springs.

Agreeing with Makeinu, part of the difference seems to be that the smaller wheels give the Mini and Strida a nimbleness that allows me to avoid bumps on shorter notice than is possible on the Triumph.
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Old 05-22-08, 02:39 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Fat Boy
Hooey or not, Jur, I promise you that the differences in both wheel stiffness and frame stiffness are quite noticeable by a rider.
I would agree that this is a true statement.

Originally Posted by Fat Boy
Isn't it only logical that a 16 spoke wheel would feel different from a 32?
Why? What if the 32 spoke wheel and the 16 spoke wheel were designed to be equally stiff? To quote yourself back to yourself:

Originally Posted by Fat Boy
C'mon now, you've got the background to recognize the many variables at play here.
Originally Posted by Fat Boy
And isn't is also logical that a big-tubed aluminum frame could potentially be more stiff than a steel one with a standard tubeset?
Yes, but the fact that it could potentially be doesn't mean that it will always be so. To quote yourself back to yourself:

Originally Posted by Fat Boy
C'mon now, you've got the background to recognize the many variables at play here.
The devil is in the details. What Jur is saying is that there is there is no (or little) fundamental reason that small wheels should be harsher than big wheels.

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Old 05-22-08, 03:56 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Speedo
Why? What if the 32 spoke wheel and the 16 spoke wheel were designed to be equally stiff? To quote yourself back to yourself:
Grow up.
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Old 05-22-08, 05:04 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Fat Boy
Hooey or not, Jur, I promise you that the differences in both wheel stiffness and frame stiffness are quite noticeable by a rider. Isn't it only logical that a 16 spoke wheel would feel different from a 32? And isn't is also logical that a big-tubed aluminum frame could potentially be more stiff than a steel one with a standard tubeset? C'mon now, you've got the background to recognize the many variables at play here.

I like my folders for what they are, but I don't attempt to make them something they're not.
Sorry Fat Boy, apparently you misunderstood me. I actually completely agree with you!
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Old 05-22-08, 05:43 PM
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[QUOTE=EvilV;6742240]
Originally Posted by werewolf

LOL - I like your style werewolf.



Actually, I just returned from walking about 105 miles in Spain and carrying my kit. There were many times when I'd have loved to sail down hill on a velocipede just like the ones in the picture. We laugh at these crude machines that are the forerunners of our bikes and understandably so, but they did provide wonderful relief from walking when it came to a downhill stretch. Walking down hill carrying a bag is a pain in the bum.

I felt especially regretful when passed by people on mountain bikes. It just looked so easy by comparison to walking.


Thank you, you long-legged velocipede terror of the public byways!

Actually, those things were more than halfway there, I think. They made going downhill fun, and on level ground they were fun too, like scooters, and you just pushed them uphill, and bicycles were never very good going uphill anyway, then or now, ultra low granny gears and all that nonsense notwithstanding.

I was hiking through Holland once, years ago, through the beautiful tulip fields. I don't remember seeing any other hikers in the country. Everybody was either in a motor vehicle or on a bicycle.
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Old 05-22-08, 06:55 PM
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I've done some thread cleanup, and would just like to remind everyone that we are here to ride bicyles .

Thanks!

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Old 05-22-08, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Fat Boy
Grow up.
**********?

Pretty sensitive. Maybe you shouldn't participate in these discussions if you're so thin skinned.

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Old 05-22-08, 09:53 PM
  #42  
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Honestly, dude, what you wrote was pretty ignorant. 1 spoke would feel the same as 32 if it were big enough, wouldn't it? You knew exactly the point I was getting at and were being obtuse. 'Grow up' was a pretty fitting under the circumstances and not overly harsh.
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Old 05-22-08, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jur
So as far as I can see, here is proof: Smaller wheels with everything else being the same, are harsher, but with tyres pumped to realistic pressures, the situation is much the same or even reversed.
Everything is not the same when you compare a 50mm tire to a 28mm tire.

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Old 05-22-08, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by werewolf
As a new small wheel (20") rider, I have not found them harsher, but I have found them less stable. Even riding with one hand makes me nervous - forgedabout no hands! That being said, I like 'em!
I think that has much more to do with the bike's geometry than the wheel size. I don't think that small wheel geometry is well understood. Many small wheel bicycles just copy the steering geometry (head tube angle and fork offset) from a large wheel bicycle without realizing that trail and wheel flop depend on wheel size.

alex
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Old 05-22-08, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
The trade off, of course, is rolling resistance. You can soften your ride but it slows you down.
Not always. Tire rolling resistance has much more to do with construction than with the pressure used to inflate them. There are low pressure tires that have lower rolling resistance than very skinny high pressure tires.

Too high of a pressure can increase rolling resistance because the wheel bounces along instead of conforming to the pavement.

We demonstrated both of these in the tire tests in Bicycle Quarterly.
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Old 05-22-08, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by awetmore
Everything is not the same when you compare a 50mm tire to a 28mm tire.

alex
In practical terms yes, but for this which was a purely theoretical exercise, the tires did not have their own part to play except to provide a somewhat damped springiness. I the only parameter which was taken into account was tyre width for determining final wheel radius. But for everything else I assumed that the tires were identical in that they were modeled by an ideal damped spring.

So again, the aim of the exercise was to determine the merit of the general statement, "smaller wheels give a harsher ride", with no parameters other than wheel size and tyre pressure having a say in the matter. Tyre construction and material and frame influences were very deliberately excluded. I even excluded the effect of the square edge digging into the tyre as the wheel first hits the edge.
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Old 05-22-08, 11:00 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by awetmore
Everything is not the same when you compare a 50mm tire to a 28mm tire.

alex
Oh yes, and the other thing which I haven't mentioned is that I chose the tyre widths because that is a typical choice for the wheel sizes involved. You would hardly ever put a 50mm tyre on a 700c wheel, or a 28mm tyre on a 16" one. (Well the last one is more common in which case the ride would be harsher, perhaps necessitating suspension a la Moulton.)
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Old 05-22-08, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jur
Oh yes, and the other thing which I haven't mentioned is that I chose the tyre widths because that is a typical choice for the wheel sizes involved. You would hardly ever put a 50mm tyre on a 700c wheel, or a 28mm tyre on a 16" one. (Well the last one is more common in which case the ride would be harsher, perhaps necessitating suspension a la Moulton.)
That is true for those two sizes, but it isn't typical that larger wheels use narrower tires. If you were to compare 349 and 590 for instance you'd have been dealing with a normal 35mm (1 3/8") width.

Tire width is important in your test because it sets the minimum lowest pressure to avoid pinch flats.
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Old 05-22-08, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by awetmore
That is true for those two sizes, but it isn't typical that larger wheels use narrower tires. If you were to compare 349 and 590 for instance you'd have been dealing with a normal 35mm (1 3/8") width.

Tire width is important in your test because it sets the minimum lowest pressure to avoid pinch flats.
Correct, but even that has been disregarded as each tyre is wide enough to avoid a pinch flat on a 25mm bump.

* goes away, repeats simulation for a humongous 50mm edge with possibility of pinch flats included *
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Old 05-23-08, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jur
Correct, but even that has been disregarded as each tyre is wide enough to avoid a pinch flat on a 25mm bump.

* goes away, repeats simulation for a humongous 50mm edge with possibility of pinch flats included *
Well, I'm not actually sure what I intended to do there... sure at some soft pressures there's pinching... I suppose you could say that you couldn't get 2 fat tyres to have similar responses because the small wheel would get a pinch flat if it was soft enough over a big enough bump where the bigger wheel would make it across without flatting.

But the original purpose of the analysis was to compare an idealised road wheel with an idealised 16" wheel on an idealised surface to evaluate the merit of the harshness statement.
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