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Thread: Seasons Tikit

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    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    Seasons Tikit



    I've posted some info & photos of a new IGH Tikit that is in the works at Bike Friday. I don't have costing info or all the details yet. The prototype I've been testing is very nice and the IGH really works well.
    safe riding - Vik
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    Last night I thought about taking the S/A 8 speed hub off of my Downtube 8HN and putting it on my NWT. I like the Tikit. At this time it is not in my budget.

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    Senior Member Lalato's Avatar
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    I am the first member of the "I hate that teasing b*stard vik" club. Who else would like to join?

    --sam

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    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lalato View Post
    I am the first member of the "I hate that teasing b*stard vik" club. Who else would like to join?

    --sam
    hahahaha...you want a real tease? Apparently a Rohloff Tikit is in the works......that would be quite the folder - although given the costs I'm pretty happy with an 8 speed IGH for the riding I do with my Tikit.

    I'm off to the arctic to do a couple laps on the Dempster highway for the next 3 weeks so if I don't reply to this thread or posts on my Tikit Blog that's why.
    safe riding - Vik
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    Senior Member Silverexpress's Avatar
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    Vik,

    what is the weight gain with the IGH Tikit compared to your standard one? Is it heavier, and do you know if Bike Friday will provide an upgrade kit for standard tikits - IGH rear wheel, and I would guess a new rear triangle plus misc hardware?
    Regards,
    Jose

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    Looks like a winner. A few more revisions and I may have to figure out a way to wrestle BF customer service into figuring out how to make me as comfortable on the tikit as everyone else is (don't mean to be a negative nellie, but why is it that people like vik and alex get sent the latest upgrades, custom racks, etc while I can't even get a stock configuration suggested for me without being referred to a dealer an hour away who, presumably, can't figure out a proper fit with me standing in front of them? and my suggestions or requests for custom bits get a "yeah, that's a good idea, but no we won't make it for you").

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
    do you know if Bike Friday will provide an upgrade kit for standard tikits - IGH rear wheel, and I would guess a new rear triangle plus misc hardware?
    I doubt you'll be able to retrofit. If you look at the viks pics and read BF Walter's blog you'll see that the bike uses a radical new rear dropout design. In fact, the frame really has no dropouts at all as much as simply holes on the rear fork to bolt on dropouts.

    It's a brilliant design, but I doubt you'd be able to retrofit it without significant modification to the rear fork of your frame.
    Last edited by makeinu; 07-11-08 at 10:48 PM.

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    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
    Vik,

    what is the weight gain with the IGH Tikit compared to your standard one? Is it heavier, and do you know if Bike Friday will provide an upgrade kit for standard tikits - IGH rear wheel, and I would guess a new rear triangle plus misc hardware?
    Sorry I can't tell you the weight difference at the moment as I don't have the bike with me and don't own a scale even if I did. From riding and loving the bike around it doesn't feel significantly heavier, but it does add some weight to the back end. If you take the weight of the Neuxus 8 and subtract a typical rear derailleur & light hub you'd be in the ballpark.

    At this point the IGH Tikit is not a production model so I can't say what Bike Friday might offer as options, but I'm not sure it would be worth it to retrofit the rear triangle on your Tikit. You might be further ahead selling it and buying a Seasons Tikit complete. I should also note that Alex W added a SRAM IGH to an older Tikit already so you can make that happen although the purpose built dropouts are very nice.

    When I get back from tour [yes I'm going to finally leave this AM!] I'll mention your question to Bike Friday and see if any sort of upgrade to an older Tikit is an option they'll offer.
    safe riding - Vik
    VikApproved

  8. #8
    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makeinu View Post
    Looks like a winner. A few more revisions and I may have to figure out a way to wrestle BF customer service into figuring out how to make me as comfortable on the tikit as everyone else is (don't mean to be a negative nellie, but why is it that people like vik and alex get sent the latest upgrades, custom racks, etc while I can't even get a stock configuration suggested for me without being referred to a dealer an hour away who, presumably, can't figure out a proper fit with me standing in front of them? and my suggestions or requests for custom bits get a "yeah, that's a good idea, but no we won't make it for you").
    I can't really explain your experiences with Bike Friday. I've rec'd excellent service from my first inquiry about the Tikit. However, I will note that communication is a two way street and I'm very clear about what my expectations are and what everyone is going to do. They certainly have not actioned every request I've made or idea I've had - I love to have a rear rack for my Tikit that could carry two regular sized Ortlieb panniers, but that's probably a early 2009 item for Bike Friday. They only have a limited staff working on the Tikit and I imagine we all have such different ideas that if they were to try and satisfy them all the production of stock bikes would grind to a halt.

    What I can suggest is you call and ask for Hugh Larkin....[he's been great to work with] and be very clear about what you want and listen to what he has to say. He may not be able to make things happen 100% the way you'd like, but he'll explain what he can do for you and try to satisfy your requests in a professional and curteous manner.

    Just to head off one potential problem the IGH Seasons Tikit isn't a production model yet. So you can call BF to ask about it and see when you could realistically get one, but they will not be able to deliver one to you immediately.
    safe riding - Vik
    VikApproved

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    Senior Member Silverexpress's Avatar
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    Vik,

    Thanks for the followup. I have a question on the Tikit in general - do either of your bikes exhibit play in the handlebar post hinge? My new '07 Tikit (purchased from the floor of a bike shop 1.5 wks ago) has enough play that I can feel it rocking back and forth at the handlebars. Should there be some form of spacer or shim at the hinge?

    I've contacted BF 1.5 wks ago for the upgraded latch and cable kit, but I'm really having second thoughts that it will fix this issue. I have not received the upgrade kit yet.

    Also I've noticed that the paint is being scraped off at where the rear triangle pivots around the main frame. On your Tikit(s) is there some sort of washer(s) or spacer(s) that prevents this from happening? My primary concern is when bare metal starts to show, since it will become an area for rust. See pics of this below.

    If you click on my youtube link below, you can see a video of the play in my hinge. Sorry it's kinda crappy, but I took it last night after I got home from a business trip.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Silverexpress; 07-12-08 at 12:01 PM.
    Regards,
    Jose

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    Quote Originally Posted by makeinu View Post
    Looks like a winner. A few more revisions and I may have to figure out a way to wrestle BF customer service into figuring out how to make me as comfortable on the tikit as everyone else is (don't mean to be a negative nellie, but why is it that people like vik and alex get sent the latest upgrades, custom racks, etc while I can't even get a stock configuration suggested for me without being referred to a dealer an hour away who, presumably, can't figure out a proper fit with me standing in front of them? and my suggestions or requests for custom bits get a "yeah, that's a good idea, but no we won't make it for you").
    Vik gets the latest upgrades and custom racks. I built my own custom rack. I did get the upgraded stem hinge, but those are available to everyone.

    alex

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    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
    Vik,

    Thanks for the followup. I have a question on the Tikit in general - do either of your bikes exhibit play in the handlebar post hinge? My new '07 Tikit (purchased from the floor of a bike shop 1.5 wks ago) has enough play that I can feel it rocking back and forth at the handlebars. Should there be some form of spacer or shim at the hinge?

    I've contacted BF 1.5 wks ago for the upgraded latch and cable kit, but I'm really having second thoughts that it will fix this issue. I have not received the upgrade kit yet.

    Also I've noticed that the paint is being scraped off at where the rear triangle pivots around the main frame. On your Tikit(s) is there some sort of washer(s) or spacer(s) that prevents this from happening?

    If you click on my youtube link below, you can see a video of the play in my hinge. Sorry it's kinda crappy, but I took it last night after I got home from a business trip.
    If you don't have the upgraded single cable hyper-fold hinge/system on your Tikit it will definitely make the bars stiffer if you get the upgrade done. I wouldn't hesitate on this at all.

    I checked my Tikit's hinge [where the rear triangle swings around and there does not appear to be any spacers/washers visible, but the paint has not been affected by the many folds/unfolds I've done. I'd give Bike Friday a call about that as there may be some change that was made as production on the Tikit progressed.
    safe riding - Vik
    VikApproved

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
    Vik,

    If you click on my youtube link below, you can see a video of the play in my hinge. Sorry it's kinda crappy, but I took it last night after I got home from a business trip.
    That's interesting you show this.. About 100 miles into my tikit (hyper 07 with their upgraded 1 cable system retrofit), I started getting some creaking from the front hinge interface. Moving it laterally (apply front brake to see) I could repeat the creak quite a bit. They said I needed to increase the tension in the cable assembly, but I still couldn't get it to work out completely. I could move it to where I coult get a thumbnail between the plates. There wasn't a really great (repeatable) way to express the amount of tension that the cable should have (ie, like deflection for a car engine belt).

    One of the concerns I expressed to BF was the long term viability of such a complicated design. We'll only see how these hold up over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagatron View Post
    One of the concerns I expressed to BF was the long term viability of such a complicated design. We'll only see how these hold up over the years.
    It's not any more complicated then your brakes are (in fact, it's practically the same thing). So if you're worried about the viability of such a complicated design then maybe you should get out the brake paddle from next to the old ordinary.

    Though there's something to be said about having additional maintenance, if you've already got a cable operated shifter and two cable operated brakes then what's one more?
    Last edited by makeinu; 07-12-08 at 10:03 PM.

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    nexus extra weight

    A quick comparison of Nexus vs Capreo as indication:

    Rear hub: C/450g, N/1550g
    Cassette: C/250g, N/0g
    R Derailleur: C/290g. N/75g (chain tensioner)
    Total: C/990g, N/1620g
    Variance: Nexus is approx 600g heavier

    This assumes shifters will be the same weight, as the Alfine tap shifter is available for the Nexus. Take the opportunity to move to lighter tyres, grips, seat, etc and reduce the variance to just a few hundred grams.

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    Senior Member Silverexpress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bangkok View Post

    This assumes shifters will be the same weight, as the Alfine tap shifter is available for the Nexus. Take the opportunity to move to lighter tyres, grips, seat, etc and reduce the variance to just a few hundred grams.
    Also include lighter stem, handlebar, brake levers, brake calipers, seat post, Stelvios/Primos, titanium skewers/bolts/clamps/bottle cage...etc...you can have a real weight weanie of a Tikit. Stuff you can get second hand on ebay.

    I wonder if Bike Friday will ever come out with Titanium forks, and a rear triangle - it may shave only a few grams but the bling factor would be
    Last edited by Silverexpress; 07-13-08 at 02:26 PM.
    Regards,
    Jose

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
    Also include lighter stem, handlebar, brake levers, brake calipers, seat post, Stelvios/Primos, titanium skewers/bolts/clamps/bottle cage...etc...you can have a real weight weanie of a Tikit. Stuff you can get second hand on ebay.

    I wonder if Bike Friday will ever come out with Titanium forks, and a rear triangle - it may shave a few grams but the bling factor would be
    Hmmm, I think I could very well get into a 17 pound tikit.

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    After speaking to a salesperson at BF, right now you can order the base model (model T) with the Nexus hub for $1675.

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    Senior Member iamstuffed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmodc View Post
    After speaking to a salesperson at BF, right now you can order the base model (model T) with the Nexus hub for $1675.
    eh? $675 more just for the hub? Holy crapper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamstuffed View Post
    eh? $675 more just for the hub? Holy crapper.
    Yeah, I suppose they're adding charges in there for the wheelbuild and I'm assuming they're using the "red band" Nexus 8. And of course, a la the iPhone, there's always an early adopter fee...

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    Senior Member Silverexpress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
    Vik,

    Thanks for the followup. I have a question on the Tikit in general - do either of your bikes exhibit play in the handlebar post hinge? My new '07 Tikit (purchased from the floor of a bike shop 1.5 wks ago) has enough play that I can feel it rocking back and forth at the handlebars. Should there be some form of spacer or shim at the hinge?

    I've contacted BF 1.5 wks ago for the upgraded latch and cable kit, but I'm really having second thoughts that it will fix this issue. I have not received the upgrade kit yet.

    Also I've noticed that the paint is being scraped off at where the rear triangle pivots around the main frame. On your Tikit(s) is there some sort of washer(s) or spacer(s) that prevents this from happening? My primary concern is when bare metal starts to show, since it will become an area for rust. See pics of this below.

    If you click on my youtube link below, you can see a video of the play in my hinge. Sorry it's kinda crappy, but I took it last night after I got home from a business trip.
    Semi-Closure: Tim of Bike Friday has responded to two emails I sent two days ago. The upgrade latch and catches are in shipment. ETA is 7/21/08 via UPS, but I will not get to the actual install until I get back from this business trip.

    The scraping paint is expected and Tim suggested to apply light grease in the area to help with the smoothness and prevent corrosion. I will in the long run probably insert a thin washer made from Delrin or similar material.

    See my current assessment in the following thread of my still new Tikit....

    http://www.bikeforums.net//showthrea...=297567&page=3

    Post Note 8/22/08: Tim of BF also included a new steerer tube, and last night I did the upgrade. It wasn't easy, and if your queasy of drilling holes in a round tube...send in your bike. The important thing is that it stiffened up the handlebar post, and the play in the hinge is gone. I like this Tikit, and I look forward to wearing this one out! Thanks BF.

    I've deleted the youtube video
    Last edited by Silverexpress; 08-22-08 at 09:13 PM.
    Regards,
    Jose

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmodc View Post
    Yeah, I suppose they're adding charges in there for the wheelbuild and I'm assuming they're using the "red band" Nexus 8. And of course, a la the iPhone, there's always an early adopter fee...
    Definitely adding labor for the wheel build. Would you want to build that wheel? It looks cramped as hell and look at the angle on the nipples. I'm sure every one produced gets a long string of profanity attached to it. It's most definitely the Nexus 8 redband with a non-stock rear sprocket (to get the magic chain length discovered by Alex Whetmore), Nexus shifter, slightly different cable routing, and the likelihood that you will have the bike longer with no replacement parts required. This all amounts to $675 more. By the way, the microshift stuff is about $30 for the cassette, the shifter, and the derailer if you're using a supplier. The Nexus redband is about $250. The shifter is about $40. You couldn't pay me enough to build that wheel.

    I would bet the cost breakdown is about $350-400 for the hub/wheel and a $300 or so premium for bumping them into a non-production "custom" bike since they're probably not ready to pump out nexus bikes yet.

    It will only be a matter of time before they offer a Rohloff hub, but be prepared to pay dearly for it.

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    Senior Member iamstuffed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Smith View Post
    Would you want to build that wheel? It looks cramped as hell and look at the angle on the nipples. I'm sure every one produced gets a long string of profanity attached to it. It's most definitely the Nexus 8 redband with a non-stock rear sprocket (to get the magic chain length discovered by Alex Whetmore)
    It looks like there's a different dropout (the silver plate thingy) than the regular tikits, so there should be no need for a "magical" sprocket to get a perfect chain length. Also, how would building a wheel with a Nexus hub be any different than building one with a Dual Drive hub (other than the number of spokes)? I doubt they get any of their wheels prebuilt anyway, so it should take the same amount of effort regardless of the hub. They probably have a master guru bike wheel builder upper.

    From Harris Cyclery:
    HUH19 Nexus 8 Speed Premium "Red Band" Hub $229.95
    Nexus 8 Twist Shifter LD822 $24.95

    This would leave $420 left over for labor and premium; the cost of the wheel and the spokes should be the same as a regular Tikit. This all assumes they keep the $1675 cost for the final product. Honestly, I don't think they can charge that much for the Model T version if the only difference is the hub.

    I'd be more interested in an adapter that would allow the regular Tikit's dropout to tension the chain for an internal geared hub.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamstuffed View Post
    It looks like there's a different dropout (the silver plate thingy) than the regular tikits, so there should be no need for a "magical" sprocket to get a perfect chain length. Also, how would building a wheel with a Nexus hub be any different than building one with a Dual Drive hub (other than the number of spokes)? I doubt they get any of their wheels prebuilt anyway, so it should take the same amount of effort regardless of the hub. They probably have a master guru bike wheel builder upper.

    From Harris Cyclery:
    HUH19 Nexus 8 Speed Premium "Red Band" Hub $229.95
    Nexus 8 Twist Shifter LD822 $24.95

    This would leave $420 left over for labor and premium; the cost of the wheel and the spokes should be the same as a regular Tikit. This all assumes they keep the $1675 cost for the final product. Honestly, I don't think they can charge that much for the Model T version if the only difference is the hub.

    I'd be more interested in an adapter that would allow the regular Tikit's dropout to tension the chain for an internal geared hub.
    You can use the nexus on a vertical drop out if you use the stock 53T chainring and a 18T sprocket on the hub. Works quite well. Call up BF or a local shop and have them build you the wheel.

    The nexus hub is more difficult to build because it's heavy and the spokes are shorter. There's a lot of fumbling to be had trying to get all that together and not enough hands. True any wheel that size is a pain, but I wouldn't even try with a heavy hub. They probably do have a guy that does that all day and then goes home and eyes a revolver.

    Whatever the market will bear, right? BF is decent sized (25-30 employees) but not that big. Their bikes are expensive because they build in the U.S. and because their sales volume is pretty low because they hand build. Their premium is paying a guy in Oregon probably close to $20 an hour to build that bike plus giving him benefits. You get a bike with no strange whipping boy labor practices from bike builders with teeth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamstuffed View Post
    It looks like there's a different dropout (the silver plate thingy) than the regular tikits, so there should be no need for a "magical" sprocket to get a perfect chain length. Also, how would building a wheel with a Nexus hub be any different than building one with a Dual Drive hub (other than the number of spokes)? I doubt they get any of their wheels prebuilt anyway, so it should take the same amount of effort regardless of the hub. They probably have a master guru bike wheel builder upper.

    From Harris Cyclery:
    HUH19 Nexus 8 Speed Premium "Red Band" Hub $229.95
    Nexus 8 Twist Shifter LD822 $24.95

    This would leave $420 left over for labor and premium; the cost of the wheel and the spokes should be the same as a regular Tikit. This all assumes they keep the $1675 cost for the final product. Honestly, I don't think they can charge that much for the Model T version if the only difference is the hub.

    I'd be more interested in an adapter that would allow the regular Tikit's dropout to tension the chain for an internal geared hub.
    You can buy any number of chain tensioners to allow the upgrade on a standard Tikit. I didn't use one because the 53/18 ratio that were stock for the Tikit chainring and hub's cog didn't require a tensioner.

    The wheel build is harder for these high flange hubs in a small rim. You need to adjust the spoke line of each hole in the rim which requires going at the eyelets with a drill. The shorter spokes aren't as springy and getting all of the nipples to drop in place when you start on the 3rd set of spokes can take a lot of time. It took me about 3-4x as long to build my SRAM S7 Tikit wheel than it takes me to build a normal wheel. I'm expecting it to take me about 2x as long to build the SRAM i9 wheel because I know more of the tricks now. I don't think I could ever get it to be as quick as building a regular wheel.

    I still would have expected the cost to be closer to the $1400 that they ask for a Dual Drive tikit. Maybe $100 extra to account for the more expensive hub.

    alex

  25. #25
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awetmore View Post
    The wheel build is harder for these high flange hubs in a small rim. You need to adjust the spoke line of each hole in the rim which requires going at the eyelets with a drill. The shorter spokes aren't as springy and getting all of the nipples to drop in place when you start on the 3rd set of spokes can take a lot of time. It took me about 3-4x as long to build my SRAM S7 Tikit wheel than it takes me to build a normal wheel. I'm expecting it to take me about 2x as long to build the SRAM i9 wheel because I know more of the tricks now. I don't think I could ever get it to be as quick as building a regular wheel.


    Sounds like something pretty easy to screw up. I did not make any changes to a Alex DM24 rim (ERTO 305) that I built with a SA8 hub. Are the flanges much bigger on the SRAM S7 hub? What was the spoke configuration?

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