makeinu

Just a note about the Downtube: Even if you change both the rear sprocket to the largest available and the front chainring to the smallest that will fit on the stock cranks you won't be able to get anywhere near 20 gear inches. If you want to get below 30 gear inches on the Downtube then you need to replace the cranks.

BB49

For excellent info on anything related to bikes, check out Sheldon Brown's articles at Harris Cycle website.

rhm

I tried riding my Strida on the beach at Fire Island a few months ago... and it was so difficult that I'd call it impossible. Perhaps our sand is different? I have heard that people with balloon tires or MTB tires --26 x 2 or more-- have no trouble; but the 16 x 1.5 on the Strida were terrible. There seemed to be an elusive patch of sand right just at the farthest reach of the crashing waves, where the sand was hard enough to support the bike (and me) for a short while; but to either side it was just too soft. I think the Strida's geometry was partly to blame. I let some air out of the tires to increase surface area, which helped a little (but not enough).

I don't mean to discourage anyone; but my results were definitely discouraging, and I'm perplexed that people are able to ride on the beach at all. Do different sands really vary that much? Or is there some technique that I need to know?

________________

By the way...
I think you can put a 38T chain ring on the crank, and you can definitely get a 25T for the huib; which will give you a lowest gear of 20.5 gear inches.

makeinu

How do you get 20.5 gear inches from that? The SA 8-speed has the lowest gear as 1:1. So 20*38/25=30.4

rhm

I went to Sheldon Brown's gear calculator, entered Sturmey Archer 8 speed hub, 16 x 1.5 tire, 25 tooth sprocket, and 38 tooth chain ring, and selected results to be shown in gear inches.

Lowest gear 20.5, highest 62.4.

Sammyboy

You've done this with 20" wheels, he's done it with 16. That's the confusion.

makeinu

We're talking about the 8H, not the Mini.

rhm

Ah, silly me.

Petoskey

At Hilton Head Island the sand, at low tide, is like cement. Hundreds of people (young & old, fit or fat) are out there daily, riding every style of bike that you can imagine. That area of the coastline has extremely large tide variations, so a very wide area (100' or more) of "ocean bottom" is exposed at low tide each day. I never had any doubt about actually riding a bike on the beach when I started this thread, I just wanted to know if anyone had found a folder that could hold up to the salt and sand, mechanically. The bike companies at Hilton Head rent out single speed, "cruiser" style bikes to the beach crowd, but I need something that folds, and could double as my everyday bike.

So far, I think that the consensus is that an internal hub would be helpful, and wide tires are a must. All this recent talk about "gear inches" is way over my head, so hopefully you're just having an academic debate on this topic, and it wasn't really meant to help me make a product choice.

It is not hard to pedal a bike on the firmly compacted sand at Hilton Head. I do not want or need to go fast (a 99 pound labrador retriever will be trying to keep up with me), so I'm wondering if the comments regarding the gearing on the DownTube 8H being "too high" should really be a concern for me. I love the features of the Dahon Glide, but if it (or any other folder) can't stand up to life by the sea, I wonder if I shouldn't settle for the less expensive DownTube 8H (at half the price). Having two bikes is not an option for me. It was storage and transporting problems that made me start looking at folders to begin with.

Thanks to everyone who keeps adding on to this thread. I never expected to get this this type of response.

BB49

Hi Petoskey, I have also found this forum very helpful.

Calculating gear-inches is academic, but it does affect you and your dog.
There are many folks on this forum who will run the numbers and select the gears for you.
You can also do it yourself with Sheldon Brown's automatic calculator if you wish.

It will be easier on your knees to have lower gearing.
It will make it possible to go slower (this is where it helps the dog on warm days).
You will be able to set a steadier pace than alternating pedaling and resting.

The gyro effect of your faster spinning legs is helpful in keeping balance at very low speeds.
You need very low gearing to do this. That is easier done on a 16" wheel folder.
There are other factors in balance, but you are already doing them on any bike.

A good dealer will be able to set the bike up for you with low gearing and wide tires.
If you cannot find a LBS that will do that, Thorusa and others definitely can.

If you want to spend about $900, a Dahon Curve SL 8 speed would serve you well.
For much less, $550?, a Dahon Curve D3 3 speed is also a good choice.
I am not saying that Dahons are better than others, I just have experience with Dahon Curves.

Either bike (or any other you buy) will need a larger rear sprocket and a stainless steel chain.
You can have the dealer do the calculations and the modifications.

You can run the info by us before you buy, if you want more of our humble opinions.

somnatash

Hi,
I double what BB49 said to explain about gearing. If you not want or not need to go fast then lower gearing is better. (So it is mostly if one is new to cycling/not trained/super-sportswoman.)

Low gearing = spinn high with little pressing power on the pedals, you move slow
high gearing = have to press hard on the pedals, move fast

With low gearing it is more training for the cardiovascular system and at the same time more gently to your knees. The cardiovascular system adapts more easily and quicker to the new training than bones, tendons and muscles do. The cardiovascular system also gives quicker response if exhausted. So it is easier to damage you knee than the system because you might feel the overstress at the knee only afterwards when its "too late".

So yes, the comments of the Downtube 8H perhaps being "too high" make sense.
To get lower gearing one can either change the cog at the rear to a bigger (cheaper) or change the chainwheel at the cranks to a smaller one (a bit more hassle).

Good luck

brakemeister

all very good advice ( nothing else expected really )

I like the Chiao becasue of a few things ..its very euro ... ( it has won bicycle of the year competition in the Netherlands !!! ) What I mean with Euro is ...

it oozes style .......................

it is "loaded" with generator hub, lights front and rear , carrier , suspension seatpost... and the list goes on ....................

it has probably thebest internal hub available for money with a large range of gears...........

it has a more upright riding position.... maybe a little slower than the guy who is all bunched up over his drop down handlebar... but you can go slower and enjoy the scenery ( smell the roses so to speak)

it can be outfitted with the klickfix willow basket ( expensive like the dickens, but who said that style is cheap) ............

id I mention it rides very nice , even at slower speeds ?..........

Thor

The alternative .... go for smaller, lightweight and get a Curve D3 ... take carrier and fenders off to save more weight and have a " naked" bike

Petoskey

Is there any reason that the Ciao would be better on the beach than the Glide? I looked over the specs and the only real differences that I saw (outside of the dimensional ones) were the handlepost (maybe?) and the tires. The Glide has the wider "Big Apple" tires that I thought might be better on the sand.

No "naked" bikes for me please. I like all the features on the Ciao/Glide models, and could care less that they weigh a little more than the stripped down bikes. If you say that they ride well at low speeds (does that hold true for the Glide too?), then that's good enough for me. I'm not as worried as people on this forum think I should be, I guess. I may be 60, but I am fairly fit (former P.E. teacher), and I don't think I'll blow my knees out if I don't get the "gear inches" down to some magic number (20?). I promise to take it easy until I develop my biking legs!

So, let's narrow this choice down to the two Dahon "euro" models - the 20" Ciao or the 24" Glide. I still think I'd like the bigger bike better, but I'm open to arguments as to why the smaller bike would be the more intelligent choice. The weight difference (less than 2 lbs.) and folded size differences (1"-3" per dimension) are of little consequence to me, but if the folding procedure (tools -vs- no tools) or the ride (particularly on the beach) is significantly different, I'll listen.

The problem is, of course, that none of you out there (outside of the bike dealers - thank you, Thor) have even seen these bikes. So, if you find it amusing, look at the specs and render an opinion. I've really enjoyed your input thus far. You are a real asset to all the "newbies" who have no access to any folders at their LBS.

Thanks again, everyone.

law4jba

I have a fixed gear swift folder (swiftfolder.com). I commute by ferry and bike most days. There have been days when the harbor is choppy and the wind is from the wrong direction, that the bike has been given a saltwater bath. I rode it all last winter through the sand and salt thrown down on Boston roadways. As screws rust, I replace them with stainless hardware. Only parts that are rusting now are the bolts that connect the crank arms to the bottom bracket (if anyone knows where I can get Ti or stainless bolts, please let me know).

Bike has about 2000 miles on it over the past 18 months and is riding well (although the front wheel is starting to ping and creak).

I'd suggest giving peter reich a call at swift. Putting a single speed rear wheel on with a white industries free wheel and a KMC S-10 stainless chain would be close to corrosion proof.

Beach

I test rode a Ciao when I was picking out my folder and it was beautiful but HOLY CR*P was it heavy. I admit I'm a bit of a scrawny 120lb weakling but I just don't see any need for anything to be that heavy.

When I stood and looked at all the folders in person - the 20" wheels, the 24" wheels, the 16" wheels and I folded them all up and lifted them.... it seemed stupid (for my purposes) to get anything other than the 16" wheel. The whole point of the folding bike (for me) was to take up as little space as possible. Why go half way and just get a normal size bike that folds in half (and is still really ackward and cumbersome and impossible to carry) when I could get something that folds down quite tiny (and is something I can actually lift and carry)?

I vote you go as small a wheel as you can bear to (you do have to be willing to be attention-grabbing if you're going to ride a 16" wheeled bike).

Sounds like you're set on either the glide or the ciao - I'm sure either will be fabulous.

noteon 

Wow, 31 pounds!

Sure is pretty, though. It would make a lovely beach bike, just aesthetically speaking.

brakemeister

glide and chiao are both good.... yeah the weight ..its around 30 ..but keep in mind that a lot of other folders are very close to that number as well, but without internal gears, generator hub, lights fenders, kickstand carrier ... iam sure I forget something..
its either "naked" bike OR loaded and that means a couple extra pounds

go with what you like better. Both bikes are great

thor

nekohime

Well, if all else fails, go by color! Glide is a gorgeous caramel, Ciao is a muted gray...

jur

Those 2 bikes have such similar visual appeal and specs that I would say go for the one that you can get the best deal on. Look around, there may be a dealer with old stock that they want to get rid of.

That said, the 20" Ciao has the advantage of lower gearing - good for your application, as well as a wide availablity tubes and tyres should you be needing any.

So spec-wise, the Ciao wins it. But you may get a good deal on a Glide.

Petoskey

Thanks again for your thoughtful responses. One question I failed to ask earlier, is what about the brakes? I've been reading the thread about full-sized folder recommendations, and the 2008 Cadenza 8 was mentioned. It has disc brakes. Would those work better in a sandy environment?

I could accomodate the folded size of this bike, and it's not that much more money than the Ciao and/or Glide, so would it make a better beach bike? The gear inch range starts higher (35" -vs- 28"/30"). Could that be dealt with on this model? It's actually lighter, but that's probably because it lacks fenders, lights, chainguard, and a rack. Which of those items are actually needed, if you're NOT communting on this bike and can pick when to ride (sunny days, daylight hours only)?

Perhaps I'm letting the "cute" looks of the Ciao/Glide get to my heart, when I should be using my head. I don't NEED the step-through design, I just like how it looks. So, what's the verdict - is the Dahon Cadenza 8 a better beach bike than the others?

PS - I finally read the thread (start to finish, at one time) regarding folding bikes being "unsanitary". I thought I'd die laughing! It should be published somewhere. You people are really clever! Thanks for taking the time to help me through my initial purchase of one of these wonderful machines.

brakemeister

usually where your heart is thats what you want to buy.. because you always have this nagging problem later ...I should have bought .... lol

The Cadenza 8 is an awesome bike .... in my opinion its underpriced for what it is ....
Disc brakes are not necessary stronger than V brakes ..........just different. I like them better but than I am crazy anyhow

I have the nagging feeling about that beach bike name ... I really would only consider cheap naked derailleur bike for the beach.
One I could powerwash and get the sand out .... but I am just on the fence with this as I picture somebody who lets the bike out in the rain, rides through the saltwater and doesnt wash the bike off ....

which is NOT the case when I read your posts, ...so you should be good....

keep in mind that the Cadenza comes in 3 different sizes ( frame sizes ) and that the small size is NOT available in the US only 18 and 20 inch frame size.... this might or might not be a deciding factor..

Thor

p.s. lights are good the moment you ride in dusk or dawn on a road with cars..... you will eventually biu a set anyhow

noteon 

That's what hearts are for.

Everyone's different, but IMHO the one you love is the one you'll actually ride.

As for disk vs. V-brakes, I'll bow to the resident experts on this one, but when I had a Dahon with disk brakes, I always had to clean them thoroughly (and sometimes have them readjusted) after riding through rain or muck. If I didn't, they made horrendous noise the next day. I'd imagine beach use would be comparable because of the moisture, salt, and sand in the environment.

If I only rode in fair weather, I don't think I'd have a preference; but for foul weather, my experience with V-brakes has been much more trouble-free. (And if you do go that way, I highly recommend Kool Stop salmon pads for riding on wet surfaces.)

BB49

Let's see if the entire message goes thru this time.

I have tested the Glide, nice bike, but would not fit into my very small car.
The Ciao has lots of style and an excellent chainguard.
My 20" Dahon Mu came with the same hubgear, gearing, wheels, and tires.
I put on wider tires. You can put Big Apples on those wheels.
You might have to change the fenders, Thor would know.
I bought some handlepost accessories from Thor that allow me to sit more upright.
Both the Glide and Ciao come with the Rustbuster chain, great for your usage.

The weight matters most if you do hills, or carry it a few hundred feet thru a subway station. On flat ground, you will not even notice it. I do not notice the 7 lb difference between my Dahons on flat trails.

I added the 16" Curve SL to the "fleet" because of the smaller size, very helpful with my very small car. I enjoy the lighter weight of it, but that was not a factor, I lift dumbells anyway.

Both of my Dahons came with the same gearing, which is also the same as the Ciao.
I changed to lower gearing not because I wanted to go extra slow, but for 2 other reasons.
I was not biking real fast on flat ground, and not using the top 2 gears, so I was "wasting" the capacity of the bike.
Why pay for 8 speeds and use only 6? For a very low extra cost, I now use all 8 gears.
Also, I have hills I bike, especially in the most scenic areas.

You can make any bike go real slow. But no matter who you are (even Lance), and what model bike you have, you will be able to track straighter and have a more even speed at very low speeds if you have very low gearing.
You (and even Lance) will naturally do more "countersteering" for balance, and will have a more uneven speed, at that same low speed, if you have higher gearing.

If I was biking on a warm day with a large dog trotting alongside, I would want to go very slow, with a very even pace, and very straight tracking. It would be best both for me and the dog.

Dahons with Shimano hubgears normally come with a 16 tooth rear sprocket, the smallest that will fit.

For the Ciao, I would go with a 20 or 22 tooth rear sprocket.

For the Glide, I would go with a 23 tooth sprocket, the largest as per Shimano.

If you can get one a lot cheaper, you can have Big Apples and the same gearing on either.

I would not be so quick to say what bikes we have not seen. many of us tested several bikes before we
bought. We have traded rides with friendly folder owners at folder events, and even meeting on trails.

I live near 2 folding bike dealers, and have tested every type of Brompton, every size and gearing of Dahon, and a few others. I have only owned 3 folders, which is low for this bunch.
The Europeans on this forum have more opportunities, and have probably rode many more than I have.

My 20" Dahon comes with the same wheels, tires, hubgear, and gearing as the Ciao. It weighs almost as much, and I changed the handlebar setup to give me a more upright riding style.
I do not need to ride all other 20" Dahons with the same setup, that only look a lot different.

How many polar bears does someone have to watch and study before one can make some good statements about polar bears?

You may want to re-think your claim that "we have never seen these bikes".

Petoskey

So sorry BB49, I just figured no one had any experience with them (the Ciao & Glide) 'cause I kept asking for feedback on those two models and until just recently, no one said anything. I even started a separate thread with the model names in the title, and, outside of Thor, there was no response from anyone who had any even touched one. After all the help the people here have given me, I certainly didn't mean to insult anyone. Please accept my apologies. I'll go away quietly now. Looks like I've worn out my welcome.

Thanks again, everyone!

jur

What! You only just got here! Almost nobody's touchy over here... you will always be welcome. You've worn out nothing.

And we are looking for your impressions of whatever bike you get in the end!