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Old 08-19-08, 04:24 PM   #1
Abneycat
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Raleigh Twenty BB Shimano UN-72 + phil wood, or are original cups okay?

Hey there. I'm changing over a Raleigh Twenty's bottom bracket from the cottered axle to a Shimano UN-72. I've read that this is possible with Phil Wood's 26tpi cups, but has anyone had any experience in fitting the UN-72 with the original cups, and whether or not this works?

Thanks for your time
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Old 08-20-08, 04:20 AM   #2
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The old bb-shell doesn't have 'cups' in the modern sense as it doesn't have a modern cartridge bracket. The original is a solid axle with separate un-sealed bearings so for the UN-72 route you either need to fit it with the Phil wood rings or find some other way of utilising the Shimano ones (either by getting the shell re-tapped to the modern thread-per-inch ratio, or by stripping the UN threads on a grinder to the extent they'll fit the old threading without destroying it. There's a thread somewhere on here about fitting a UN53 which comes with plastic cups that outlines the 'stripping' method for a good clean fit.

FWIW I'd go the Phil route - OK it's expensive when you have to get the tools as well as the rings but they have no flanges so when you fit the BB you have some degree of adjustment as they'll go right inside the shell allowing you to fit it for the optimum chainline.
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Old 08-20-08, 05:52 AM   #3
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Well, I tried it out earlier. The old cups will squeeze the Un72 in place, but I doubt it would be very sane to ride as the bottom bracket is only being held by the edges of the cups, they won't fit over the bottom bracket entirely.

Ordered some Phil Wood cups and a relevant BB tool earlier. Thanks for the information about the cups having no flanges too, thats a nice bonus.
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Old 08-20-08, 07:23 AM   #4
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They're one of those 'stitch in time saves nine' parts. A bit pricey but will last forever. You won't regret the purchase for sure. Let us know how the upgrade goes - doing much else to the wee Twenty?
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Old 08-20-08, 08:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abneycat View Post
Well, I tried it out earlier. The old cups will squeeze the Un72 in place, but I doubt it would be very sane to ride as the bottom bracket is only being held by the edges of the cups, they won't fit over the bottom bracket entirely.

Ordered some Phil Wood cups and a relevant BB tool earlier. Thanks for the information about the cups having no flanges too, thats a nice bonus.
Abneycat:

I need to do the same thing with my 1970 Moulton MK3 restoration. I don't know too much about the Phil Woods cups and tools. Do you have a link to show me what I need to get?

Thanks,
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Old 08-20-08, 09:05 AM   #6
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From Sheldon Brown site http://www.sheldonbrown.com/raleigh-twenty.html

http://sheldonbrown.com/raleigh26.html
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Old 08-20-08, 03:18 PM   #7
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You might save a bit by asking your LBS if they have the Phil Wood tool. My local LBS did and it saved me the cost of buying a tool I would use only once.
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Old 08-20-08, 03:27 PM   #8
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They're one of those 'stitch in time saves nine' parts. A bit pricey but will last forever. You won't regret the purchase for sure. Let us know how the upgrade goes - doing much else to the wee Twenty?
Considering how horrible removing the cotters was, i'm going to make sure its worth it to change over by picking up a really nice track crank for starts.. Had to drill the cotters twice, and blowtorch the cranks to an extreme heat to get the cotters to respond to any pressure at all. Pretty intense operation it was.

In the near future upgrades don't include anything exotic, just a switch to an aluminum front wheel, an overhaul and disposables refresh (new pads, cables, etc), some cork grips, and my B17 Imperial. I work at a bike co-op, and all of the replacement parts mentioned are already owned or easily accessed.

Down the road, the SRAM I-motion 9 or the DualDrive if i'm up for re spacing the frame, a SA XRF8 if not. Possibly going with the Sturmey archer dynamo/drum brake combo for the front wheel. Its a pretty exciting project, actually. I had a Dahon MuP8 before, but i'm enjoying the nicer ride of the Twenty, and probably won't miss the weight or small fold for what its needed for.
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Old 08-22-08, 04:46 AM   #9
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I don't think the Sram Dual Drive 3x9 will work in a R20 rear triangle, as it will be too narrow even with a far amount of cold setting performed, but then again I have been known to be wrong before. I've recently purchased a Sachs 3x7 hub for my R24 project, I think that might be the limit.
One day, somebody will be crazy enough to try a Rohloff for a R20.....any takers?
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Old 08-22-08, 07:58 AM   #10
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If I had the money i'd try it. My pet hate with the rohloff is the double shifter cable. Too much clutter!
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Old 08-23-08, 04:33 AM   #11
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If I had the money i'd try it. My pet hate with the rohloff is the double shifter cable. Too much clutter!
LP, here in Oz, the going rate from a LBS for a Rohloff hub and accessories is about $1800 to $2000, but there is an eBay seller in Melbourne who often sells them for about $900 to $1100 without the grip shifters. Still a hefty investment.
If you use a non folding Twenty, part of that cable clutter gets hidden in the frame.
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Old 08-26-08, 08:53 PM   #12
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GO WITH THE Phill wood cups, Your local bike shop can order them and install them (if they know what they are doing) It will make everything easier. if you do it your self you must buy the tool or TWO of the tools to adjust the cups, that seems a bit excessive, so let your local wrench do it all.

BTW: What is so great about a Rohloff?

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Old 08-26-08, 11:39 PM   #13
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I am the local bike shop or well, part of it. And the tools and such will go to good use after i'm finished with them.

Rohloff? Enough gear range to easily tour on, all in very well designed small gear steps. Its a really nice piece of work.
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Old 08-27-08, 05:28 AM   #14
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BTW: What is so great about a Rohloff?
Shimano and Sram make very good quality IGHs, however, their application is mainly recommended for commuting, while Rohloff developed their hubs for the rigours of MTBing and world touring and being German designed and made, they are in fact, superior.
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Old 08-27-08, 10:49 AM   #15
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Abneycat:

I need to do the same thing with my 1970 Moulton MK3 restoration. I don't know too much about the Phil Woods cups and tools. Do you have a link to show me what I need to get?

Thanks,
SesameCrunch, sorry for missing your post until now!

The MK3 uses the same threaded cups as mine, I believe (according to this website which has a nicely restored MK3 at least. I've not even seen one, personally):

http://www.northroadbicycle.com/arti...k3rebuild.html

As for the cups, they were ordered from Harris Cyclery:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/botto...html#philrings

Sheldon Brown's site has a very good page on bottom bracket sizing, including a section on threading as well.

As for the bottom bracket, the UN-72 was simply found in a drawer here at the bike co-op. We get in lots of odd parts, but when I was looking around prior there were a few on ebay which were available.

Good luck on your Moulton build, it looks like a nice little bike!
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Old 08-27-08, 12:12 PM   #16
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Here is the conversion being done if you dont know the process...

http://web.mac.com/phatatude/Green_S..._the_Man).html


R-20's : Not your mama's grocery getter any more...
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