stratman

I'm looking to buy a folder. Or 2.

First off I'm looking for a 26inch wheel folder. I've narrowed it down to the Espresso or Jack.

Situation is this: I want it for city based commuting, in conditions which will vary. I'm a touring theatre musician. We spend a week, or more, at each theatre. I stay in a small hotel/guest house/rented flat/friends spare room or whatever. Generally I try to stay somewhere within walking distance of the theatre, but it's often a long walk.

So a bike would be good. Either to do the whole trip from lodgings to theatre, or to throw in the back of the car, drive as far as free parking will allow, and then cycle. Generally it's going to be city type conditions, but might include tow paths, trails, parks.

At the moment I'm not really thinking about buses/trains, as I usually have the car with me. Though I'm on the look out for a 2nd hand 20 inch folder, as there might be times when public transport could enter the equation.

I never actually know what the journey from lodgings to theatre is like till I get there, except that I'm always going to finish in a city centre (i.e. at the theatre).

I looked at a Cadenza, but didn't like the fact that I had to use an allen key to fold it, and there was doubt about getting mudguards over the discs.

So I've narrowed it down to the Espresso or the Jack. People talk about the Jack as though it's better made, though I also gather it's the same frame (but different forks), so maybe the higher quality is in the parts?

I will want to install mudguards and a rack.

I'm 50 years old and will probably prefer a fairly upright position (which is what I have on my Revolution Pathfinder Nexus). Or at least the option to adapt the bike to an upright position.

It looks like the Espresso doesn't need tools to fold the handlebars, whereas the Jack does - is this true?

I also read a bit of unhappiness with the quality of the gears on the Espresso. Are the gears on the Jack better quality, or is it just that a single front cog is more reliable?

Here in the UK there's about £50 difference in price, which while it's not a fortune could well go towards my 20" folder (or maybe getting one with hub gears).

Any advice gratefully received, or suggestions for other reasonably priced 26" folders. Basically a decent quality urban commuter that can stand the odd bit of roughish track.

Thanks, the stratman.

Abneycat

Just taking a quick look on the Dahon website, there are some small to moderate improvements in spec with the Jack over the Espresso.

Notable points:

Espresso uses Kenda Kwest. Jack uses Schwalbe Big Apple.

The Kwest is a pretty dull tire, IMO. The Big Apple is exquisite, the ride of the Jack's Big Apple tires will be more comfortable, likely just as fast, and include puncture protection and reflective sidewalls as well. Only downside to the BA is weight, but I think that overall most people would percieve this as an advantage for Jack. I certainly would.

Espresso uses Shimano Tourney / Revo, and a 14-28 freewheel. Jack uses SRAM 3.0. and an 11-30 cassette.

SRAM 3.0 may not be glamorous, but IMO it is better than Tourney, which is a system you'll find on only the lowest end dept. store offerings. The freewheel is inferior to the cassette as well. While the Jack won't come with the smoothest shifting set, its components will outperform the Espresso by a notable amount.

Side note: I have criticism over the Espresso design. That 14-28 freewheel isn't doing that triple crank any favours. Sure, gear steps will be closer than they will with the Jack, but look at the overall gear ranges:

Jack: 33" - 90"
Espresso: 25" - 86"

Hah. Not too much gain for having to bother with a triple and all of its necessarily components. I can see why people don't like it.

Other things to note:

Even with the Big Apples, the Jack is lighter than the espresso.

The Jack comes with Dahon's "F.I.T." system, so I guess you can adjust stem height easily. That isn't mentioned as being a feature of the Espresso.

The Jack is mentioned as having non-folding pedals, while the Espresso has some folding ones. The folding ones featured on the Espresso are the fairly cheap, basic resin ones by Suntour though.

Truvativ Isoflow crank on the Jack, seems a bit nicer. I've not seen the triple version of Dahon's crank admittedly, but if its like the one that comes with the Speed D7 (which I own), then it'll be pretty boring, and with non-replaceable chainrings.

Personally, I would go with the Jack, easily. Its well worth the bit of extra money.

badmother

When I read your post it comes to my mind that I think you could get by with only one folder, a 20" or 16". They are much better bikes than most peopel think, and you ar going to be happy with the smaller fold (than26") also when taking it in your car and somebodys flat or hotelroom. Is it possible for you to try one out, shop or private?

I am trying to reduce my number of bikes and I am going to use 20" folders much more and get rid of my MTB. If I am alone I can put it innside the car. If I travel with my son I guess the bikes go on the bikerack (since the dog also need space) but can be put innside the car if we want to leave the car & bikes locked for some time.
Depending on what bike, tyres, gears and so on you buy there is not much you can do on a 26" that you can not do on a 20".

Maybe get a 20" first and see if that is all you need ?

stratman

Great, thanks Abneycat, that's exactly the sort of info I need. I had the impression the Jack was better equiped than the Espresso, but not really knowing anything about the difference specs, I couldn't tell.

I thought about upgrading the Espresso if I felt the need, but by the looks of what you've said, I'd spend a lot more than the difference in price, never mind the hassle. I can put folding pedals on if I want to (though on a bike of this size I'm not sure if it'll be worth it).

Do you think that with the necessary adjustments to saddle/handlebars and stem I'll be able to roughly the same upright position on the Jack that the Espresso has (if I want to)?

Many thanks for the advice, mucho appreciated.

The stratster

makeinu

How about a nonfolder with a car rack?

brakemeister

Jack
you need a allen key anyhow ( for both models )
its tougher and better in every small little detail ... forget the fenders and get a backpack ..or if really needed get some clip on fenders and a small rear carrier ....

the nice thing about the jack is that is is a "naked" bike ..if you accessorize it beyond your actual needs than it becomes closer and closer to the espresso

Thor

stratman

Thanks folks for your suggestions.

I'm kind of shying away from a small folder as the 'do it all' bike for this situation. A friend of mine who is an experienced road/touring/mtb cyclist has a brompton and thinks they don't handle potholes that well.

If i went for a small wheeled folder it would be a 20" one, probably one of the Dahons. I'm keeping an eye on Ebay. If one comes up cheap enough I'll get it, try it out, and if I think the format works maybe upgrade to a high quality 20" folder, perhaps a lightweight one with hub gears. I'll try my friends Brompton in the meantime (which is 16" wheels, yes?).

But I'm still thinking I'll want a 26" folder for the rougher riding. And it's looking like new - there arent' that many 2nd hand.

I have a bike rack and a non folder 26" and thought about doing it that way. But there are several drawbacks:

1. The higher petrol consumption on the sometimes very long drive to the new venue.

2. I lose the ability to use the tailgate easily (which is important for me, going to a new venue I may have 3 guitars, a banjo, a mandolin, 2 amplifiers, an effects rack and a suitcase in the back).

3. I lose the option to just carry on and drive all the way to the venue, or at least if I do do that, I've got an exposed bike on the back of the car. Might not be a problem, but it might. Some of the areas I may end up leaving the car in might not be that salubrious.

4. Takes up more space in the venue. Not usually a problem (a lot of the crew bring bikes in), but it's a consideration. Ditto at my lodgings.

Thanks for all your advice.

Looks like the way forward is:

Try out 16" and 20" folders if possible, and if I still want a 26" folder go for the Jack.

makeinu

Sort of. There are four common rim sizes in approximately 2" increments which go by the names "16 inch" and "20 inch":
305mm ("16 inch")
349mm ("16 inch")
406mm ("20 inch")
451mm ("20 inch")

The Brompton uses 349s and Dahons and most other "20 inch" folders use 406s. So in reality the difference is 2 inches, not 4 inches as you might expect.

Frankly I think most of us around here have come to believe that wheel size doesn't matter much. What really makes the difference is the overall design and since it's easier to market a higher performance bike as "20 inch" and a smaller bike as "16 inch", the "20 inch" bikes tend to be more capable vehicles while the "16 inch" ones tend to make more sacrifices for a smaller/convenient fold. Now that's not to say that wheel size doesn't matter at all, but I think the consensus is that difference between a performance oriented "20 inch" folder and an equivalent "26 inch" folder is negligible for all but the most hard core users (who would probably rather opt out of a folder altogether).

[Edit: the larger "16 inch" size is actually 349mm...355mm is another less common size]

Abneycat

I would say that in the defense of the 26" wheeled Dahon folding bikes if you're really not concerned about the size of the fold, I like that you can still stand and hammer / maneuver on the big Dahons. The small ones are not intended to be used while standing, especially not aggressively.

This is not true for every brand of folding bike, though. There are some like the Bike Friday (and, I believe the Xootr Swift as well) that can handle standing / hammering while standing. Dahon bikes can not, but that is a trade-off for them having a quick folding stem.

And as a benefit to the 20" bikes, I would say that as a Speed D7 owner and a soon-to-be Bike Friday Pocket Llama owner that the 20" wheels are much more capable than is sometimes perceived. They do strike potholes harder, yes, but you can take the edge off of this disadvantage with some nice fat tires. The Big Apples that come with the Jack for instance, also come on the Speed P8.

The best of both worlds would be to get a small but highly off-road capable machine like a Pocket Llama or (should you ever find one), an Airnimal Rhino. But, both offerings are quite expensive compared to the Dahon line.

RE handlebars and riding positions: I don't know if that "F.I.T." stem on the jack can be interchanged. From what I can see just based on the pictures, the Jack allows for greater stem height adjustment and allows the stem to reach a higher point on the steering tube. The Espresso simply has higher bars because of the very high rise on its included stem.

You could look into the possibility of getting a stem for the Jack with a high rise, or getting some new handlebars that allow you to sit more upright.

jagatron

I have a Jack and several small folders. I needed the Jack because I don't like the small folders for certain types of commuting - if you need to do more crazy things like very rough pavement, mountain bike handling (curbs), etc. then I'm convinced that the larger wheels and bigger frame are necessary. There are many, many times when I do something on the Jack that I need to do, that I think I would only be able to do 10x on a small folder without breaking something due to the torques that would be generated.

But your question is Jack or espresso : I would go Jack over espresso for the tires, wheels (cassette), and the look is very cool of the jack and not attention grabbing. Tires alone are $40/piece. You can upgrade to triple crank or increase gear ratio with a 11-34 cassette if you want. Shifting on Jack is good - I have several bikes with the SRAM ESP system, and especially for bikes where cable movement / precision is more of an issue (folding bikes), they shift better with using more cable pull per gear shifting. The 7 speed gear range is sufficient for where I am.

But the question of 26" vs. 20" : it's specialized.. it will take a lot more space to store and takes more time to get into a small space since you need to remove wheels. I got mine (size large) into a large suitcase surprisingly without having to disassemble too much. It's ironic that some 20" folders have difficulty with doing this without major disassembly.

SesameCrunch

+1 on these commments.

I've been through about 15 small-wheel bikes of varying sizes. Wheel size is not the biggest consideration to me when choosing a bike. Many other factors are more critical, based on the type of riding I want to do.

joseff

I'd take a 20" folder over a 26" any day. What brakemeister meant was, to turn the handlebar sideways on both Dahons you do need an allen key.

But if you want a bike for "throwing in the back of the car" a regular full-suspension 26" MTB can always fold (albeit with tools). Take off the wheels and handlebar, and you get roughly the same package size as say, an Espresso or Montague.

jagatron

You've ridden your 20" on pavés in Europe?

You won't be turning the bars on the Jack - the NVO system is keyed so the stem can be removed completely or adjusted vertically, but not turned. At least on 2008.

joseff

No I haven't ridden on European cobblestones but where I used to live they installed those on the roads to be "stylish" lol. They're just unridable on my folder or road bike.

So you can't install a regular stem on the Espresso/Jack? I didn't know that.

stratman

Thanks very much for the advice folks, keep it coming.

I have a non folding 26" folder. And tried doing what I want to do (drive to free parking, bike the last bit) by putting it in the back of the car. The car I've got at the moment (Volve 940 estate) is huge and has a very flat square load area and a large tailgate with no lip, but the bike still filled it, with both back seats folded down. And was awkward to get in. I suspect if I was putting it in and out regularly I would start to damage bits of me/the bike/the car. The last thing I want to do just before I'm meant to play my guitar is trap a finger somewhere. And of course I couldn't get any instruments/equipment in the car for the long commute to the first night of a run at a new theatre.

Convenience is the key here. I've had the front wheel off, it's got those not-so-quick-release things on, the ones where you have to unscrew them too. There'll always be a bit of faffing about to do getting helmet on, gloves, strapping my bag to the rack. If I have to start messing with wheels it's not going to happen.

I've measured the back of the car with the seats up and I'm sure the Jack will go in folded, even with the handle bars still on and the seat post up and the pedals on. In other words slightly larger than the 'folded size' that Dahon give. There's a video on YouTube (something like 'Jackie's new Jack') of a woman taking one out of the back of Vauxhall Frontera and just unfolding it, i.e. bars/seat/pedals all in place. That's what I'm after.

It looks like IF I go for a 26" wheeler and I want to do it at a good price the Jack is the one to go for. There are some available in the UK for £230. Which seems like a steal, to be honest. I still need to decide on sizing, but that's in another thread.

There will be times with a 26" folder that other options will be a lot more difficult or impossible. For instance - bus from my house to railway station, train to destination city, bike to theatre/digs. A 16"/20" might be a lot better then. But I won't know till I try. I'm imagining the various scenarios right now. For instance if I'm also carrying bags/instruments on public transport then ANY sort of folder might not be possible.

Here's another scenario - I want to go out with my son (11yo) on the bikes. His bike and a Jack, folded, will go in the back of the car OK, I think, whereas 2 unfolded bikes won't. So we can drive to where we are going, do some light trail type stuff without having to mess with racks etc.

There are so many different scenarios.

That's why I suspect I'm going to end up with both a 'small wheeled folder' AND a 26" wheel folder. And I've already got a non folding 26".

One of the reasons I'm not too worried about 'wasting' money on the wrong choice is the fact I've got an 11 year old and a 7 year old. So they'll grow into any unused bikes fairly soon. Hell, my son's the tallest in his class at 5'. He'll be able to ride my fixed 26" wheeler in a couple of years or so if he carries on growing like this!

feijai

If you're looking at 26" folders, I think you will want to seriously rethink the convenience issue: the best 26" folders (quite a bit higher grade than the Dahons, starting at about the same price) requires you remove the front wheel: Montague. Their cheapest folder starts at under $500, and they go up to about $800. Montague makes very tough, impressive bikes.

In that price range, you might also want to look at the Swift.

stratman

Thanks for your advice.

Why do the you think I'll have to rethink the convenience issue? I've seen Montagues on the internet, but they're not very available in the UK, and I want a folder, not a bike where I have to take wheels off. Is the Jack inconvenient in some way I'm not aware of?

Abneycat

Well, in order to fully fold the Montague, you need to remove a wheel. In order to fully fold a Jack, you need to remove the stem. They both require a measure of work.

As a benefit to the Montague, removing the wheel requires no tools, and on a disk brake version it would be quite quick and easy, while the Jack requires you to carry a hex key. It would be quite a bit easier than doing a "not-so-quick release" with brakes you need to unlatch.

EDIT: Oh, I just looked on the website for the Montague / Swiss bikes. Apparently they use some sort of interesting quick release for the front wheel that doesn't need adjustments or anything. Looks easy.

Comparing the Jack to the Montague's cheaper bikes, the parts on the cheaper models are largely junk. Dahon Espresso level. I would consider the Paratrooper or Swissbike, but not the cheaper models, personally.

However, the Montague / Swissbike frame (in general) is supposedly well designed and quite capable.

If you're just wanting a 26" bike because of concerns with potholes, there are some smaller 20" models which are very capable and durable machines. The Xootr Swift, Airnimal Rhino, and Bike Friday's touring and mountain models are all very tough bikes despite their small stature. If cost is a factor, the Xootr Swift isn't too expensive, out of that pack.

If its more the wheelsize that you would like, then I believe that the Jack or a mid-range Montague / Swissbike could suit your needs well. I don't think either one is going to be much more convenient than the other.

If I were given a choice to choose a 26" folding bike for light trail use that met the following criteria:

acceptable parts
decent price
convenience

Then the Jack, Montague Paratrooper, Swissbike LX would probably be the top 3 I would think about, personally.

RE: trail riding
20" wheels can also be quite off-road capable. Take a look at some BMX races, for instance. Sometimes the tracks are quite muddy and bumpy, not to mention the jumps. They really only start to fall short in highly aggressive terrain such as rock gardens. Wide, high volume tires can absorb potholes well.

Bikes like the BF Pocket Llama / Airnimal Rhino are more "off-road" capable than a Jack in regards to their ability to take the abuses associated with tough trail, for instance. The Jack would be fine I think, if your idea of trail is to just do some nice forested routes and skip the adventures requiring hopping and dropping. I don't know about how much the Montague could take, relatively.

It all falls down to what you would like to ride

jagatron

One could also remove the wheel on the jack to get the package size down, too. The problem with either of these bikes is that if you add full size fenders, you're going to make it impossible to turn the wheels to reduce size.

If you've narrowed your bars on the jack, the overall width of the package (depth of the two wheels side by side) isn't that bad.

But these are still big compared to 20" folders, and require more time to get them into their small sizes.

The Montague's have a strong following? I didn't consider it when looking at the Jack. Jack in the US / Europe can have a well discounted price bringing it closer to USD$300. It has a lifetime warranty on the frame.

stratman

Thanks very much for all you advice folks.

Just to re-iterate - I can't be 100% certain of how the folder will fit it to my commuting pattern, because each job is slightly different. In the sense that for each week of a tour I'm living at a different place AND working at a different place. If I was doing a daily commute from home to a static office it would be easy to choose.

What I do know is this:

1. I usually have the car with me. My current one is a very large estate car. That's the sort I like and will probably always have, at least as long as I'm working as a musician.

2. Most of the riding will be urban and city centre, perhaps the odd towpath/trail. When I tried doing what I want to do recently with my fixed frame it was on tarmac. What I'm certain I will be doing is 'kerb hopping'. I ride on the pavement ('sidewalk') if possible. And one thing I'm pretty certain of (correct me if I'm wrong) is that going on and off kerbs with a 26" bike is going to be easier and less flat-tyre-producing than with a 16"/20".

3. I don't need to get a 26" folder down to absolutely minimum size. This video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFRDAQJksFY

showw that it'll do what I want, with very little fuss. She didn't bother doing anything with pedals/handlebars/saddle. I'm pretty certain my boot is as big as hers. I think from opening the tailgate to riding off she could have done the whole thing in 30 seconds if she'd been a little quicker.

The thing I'm losing getting a 26" instead of a 16"/20" is just the smaller folded size. I'm aware of this. This might matter if I want to do a cycle+bus or cycle+train type commute. But I really dont think that will be that common. If I can get into the city centre on a bus then why do I need a bike? If I'm doing the whole commute from home to theatre on a train then I don't think a folder is practical either, as I will have bags with me, like a week's worth of clothes. There MAY be times when I can do a long multi mode trip with just me and a folder, but I don't think the combination of circumstance that will make that a good idea will happen very often.

In my work, for the short trip from lodgings to theatre, if I'm using public transport (which is rare) I'm often going against the other commuters. For instance I'm going into a city at 5.30pm, when everybody else is coming out, so the buses are quiet. Seems to me there's often a bit more open space to put a folded bike on buses compared to trains, at least in the UK.

Questions:

1. Has anybody taken a folded 26" onto public transport, if so, how was it, and how did it compare with a smaller folder?

2. How easy is it to adapt the Jack - specifically, changing handlebars, putting hub gears on, racks and mudguards?

Cheers, the right honorable and learned stratman, esquire.

stratman

Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread, some very useful advice was given.

Just to let you know what I did:

I got a Jack, it was 230GBP delivered (which is 326 USD).

First impressions:

In not bad condition, but I had to assemble. Slight frame scratch, but not as bad as I'll give it, probably. It seems to come with pot of touch up paint.

A bit of untrueness about the wheels, the gears were 1 off on the indexing and the brakes needed tweaking.

So it needs running in and servicing.

It seems solid. The latch is reassuringly solid. Tyres nice and fat, but better on tarmac than on dirt (or ice, here in the UK at the moment!).

I don't like the grips, but can change, obviously. Don't really like the bars too much either.

I'm spoilt gears wise with a Nexus hub on my other bike. In time I might change this to Nexus/Alfine/Rohloff (!!), but it's got vertical drop outs so I'm into chain tensioner/EBB territory. Lot to look at there, and by the looks of things this won't take an EBB so it would have to be Excentriker or tensioner.

The principle thing I bought it for was folding and putting into the back of the car. Which is perfect. If I don't do anything the pedals/bars/saddle it folds in 10 seconds. With practice it could be 3 seconds. It goes in the boot of my Volvo 940 with the back seats up, but does pretty much fill it.

My car, though large, is actually quite 'short' from floor to roof (it's got a high floor, due to the rear wheel drive, I guess). So one idea, to stand the bike on it's wheels and special stand thing, won't work, unless I take the bars off. But that would make a really good transport system. The car has a really substantial dog/luggage guard in it which will make a perfect anchor point for some bungees to hold the bike upright.

I imagine it would go just as easily in modern front wheel hatchbacks. I'll try it in friends cars.

It's light enough to lift and put in cars, but I'm not atall sure about carrying any distance. If I was trying a multi mode commute I would want to wheel/ride it right up to the bus/train door. And of course it's still pretty large when it's folded.

But it hasn't disappointed. It's turned out to be what I thought it would be, for a very good price. Once I've rode it for a while and spent a bit of time tweaking and getting accessories (guards/rack etc.) I'll stick a report up somewhere on the internet. Cheers.