hardtail

Hi all,

I'm considering buying a folder. Ideally I'd like something that folds like a tikit, but is suitable for touring and has hub gearing. I guess the season tikit is what I'm looking for except that it doesn't seem to be as good as the NWT for touring. Can anybody answer the following:

1. Would it be possible for BF to build a season tikit with 20 inch wheels?

2. Is it possible to use a hub (preferably alfine) with a NWT without the need for a tensioner?

3. Is the tikit at all suitable for touring i.e. long tours of several hundred kms sometimes on rough roads carrying panniers?

4. Is the any difference in build quality/durability between a tikit and NWT?

5. Regarding foldability how much less compact and more awkward to carry is a folded NWT compared to a folded tikit when carrying on trains, buses etc?

I'm sending this to BF, but posting here in case anybody on the forums has any experience of a tikit and/or NWT.

Many thanks!

ChiapasFixed

please post back with whatever Bike Friday tells you!

invisiblehand

2. ... the chain will drop if you fold the bike.

3. ... you will have to use a trailer since the rear rack isn't tall enough for standard panniers. And you can do a search on the effect of tire size.

5. ... I have a NWT and putzed around with a tikit. The tikit is much easier since it can be rolled and it keeps its form much better. But if you use the appropriately sized BF carry bag carrying the NWT isn't terrible.

There was a recent thread in the YAK group that discussed NWT versus tikit for touring.

hardtail

Will do...



Thanks for that info. Will check out the YAk thread

Any idea why re no. 2 the chain will drop off a NWT when folded if there is no tensioner while this is not an issue with the tikit? I guess the tikit has something in the design that prevents this. Maybe BF will tell me. Would be great if the foldability of the tikit could be transferred to BF's other models

invisiblehand

Because the distance between the rear hub and crank changes (does not change) when folding on the NWT (tikit).

Abneycat

I can help a bit with these ones.

2. Not really. There are vertical dropouts on the NWT, so first you would need near perfect spacing to go without a tensioner, and then as some others have mentioned the chain would drop each time you fold it.

3. It would seem so. Bike Friday does market a Tikit configuration for touring, and there are some stories available on-line from people who have used their bikes in such manners. With the BTO options, Bike Friday can configure your ticket to use the thicker, stronger stem (and possibly frame tubing) if you have concerns.

There's a story in the Summer 2008 Foldable Flyer for instance of someone using a Tikit to do some good off-road exploring in Thailand.

(From what I understand, the large Tikit uses some thicker components, Bike Friday can place them on any size of Tikit at request)

4. Quality is the same: excellent. Durability wise, the NWT is designed from the ground up to be a touring bike, and it does not have a folding stem, which is one less potential problem.

5. I can't comment on size, but in regards to convenience the Tikit folds very fast, sticks together and folds in one piece which rolls on the ground quite easily.

Contrastingly, the NWT does not fold as fast, the stem assembly comes out entirely when folding and is a loose piece to deal with, and an easy pack NWT will also have the seatpost come all the way out.

(I have also heard that Bike Friday may be planning a rack for the Tikit which will accept larger panniers, you should ask them about that when you make your call - so far, its only a rumor to me, but it may be true)

Bacciagalupe

Design choices involve compromise; that's just how it goes. The sooner you recognize this, the happier you will be with your final choice.

I think you need to decide which qualities are more important. If you're going to use it frequently to tour and/or need a better ride, NWT. If you aren't going to tour very often and will commute on smooth roads most of the time, Tikit.

Or if you really do a lot of both, spend a little less on an NWT, and buy a cheap folder for commuting. This also lets you use the NWT as a backup bike for your commute.

Separately, I've never really seen a huge advantage to the Tikit's fold. The Tikit may save you 10 seconds and roll better, but it's just as bulky as the NWT:

Bike Friday NWT, 20" wheels = 12" x 33" x 34" (13,464 cu in)
Bike Friday Tikit, 16" wheels = 15" x 24" x 35" (12,600 cu in)
Dahon Speed P8, 20" wheels = 13" x 25" x 32" (10,400 cu in)
Brompton = 9.8" x 21" x 22" (4,527 cu in)

makeinu

If you can't see the advantage then you must be the last man on earth using buttoned over laced shoes.

Also those volume calculations are all way off because none of the bikes are rectangular:

makeinu

Hardtail,

How about one of these bad boys?



20" wheels, rolls like a tikit, and surely must ride better than NWT. Drawbacks:
-aluminum frame
-only one size
-still no internal hub
-availability?

:: paging jur and BruceMetras ::
:: paging jur and BruceMetras ::

Although I don't imagine it would be too difficult to equip a season tikit with 20" wheels. Just:
1. move the rear wheel further back in those fancy dropouts
2. swap the front fork with something from a NWT or similar
Hmmm, bottom bracket would be higher, but I'm still intrigued.

Bacciagalupe

I'm not saying there is zero advantage to the Tikit. I'm saying that a) most of the advantages touted for the Tikit are fairly strong when compared to a BF travel bike, but weaker when compared to, for example, a Brompton or perhaps a Dahon (far from my favorites, by the way). And b) the main advantages are folding speed and rolling, not compact size. The Tikit can also be a little pricey. As a result, I don't see what the fuss is about.


Riiiiight. I guess it's silly of me to go by the standard method that every folding bike manufacturer is publicly using to describe the size of their bikes.

Those are figures BF put out, not ones I'm arbitrarily choosing; I have no problem using them to make an evaluation. If BF ever chooses to publish a set of volume measurements based on polyhedric shapes, I'd be happy to use those figures instead.

feijai

You're not.

Bike companies don't describe the volume of their bikes so far as I can tell. They describe the maximum extent bounding box to fit the bike, because people need to know if the bike will fit into rectangular structures like trunks or closets. Converting this into volume is a bit shameful, especially when the results hardly match up with comparing the bikes in person (in my opinion).

unkchunk

I've had both a Tikit and NWT with an internal gear hub Nexus 8. I'd say the NWT is more like a travel bike where you pack it up for a trip, unpack it and ride for a week or so, and then repack it for the trip home. If you plan to fold the bike up every day, then consider the Tikit. That's the major decision, everything else can be worked out.

makeinu

I don't even think that's why they give those numbers (to describe the bounding box) because one can often make a folder fit in different boxes by performing different steps (since each step usually decreases one dimension at the expense of another). I think it's primarily to give scale to photos.

hardtail

Bike Friday replied to my questions as follows:

1. no
2. yes, but you'd need to pop the chain off the chainring to fold it
3. it won't take rear panniers at present and the most rugged tire is the 1-3/8" Marathon, so if that fulfills the minimum criteria for you, sure. You might want to use this as a data point: https://www.bikefriday.com/alvinlee/thailand07 -- those are ROUGH roads.
4. nope
5. size isn't much of a difference but awkwardness is notable-- the tikit clips together where the NWT is all loosey-goosey. And you can wheel the tikit around by its front wheel.


Am going to have a think about this and take it from there. Leaning towards the NWT. No immediate need for a folder though, so not going to hurry. Going to have to accept that a one-size-fits-all solution may not exist

Thanks for all the replies!

vik 

I've got both a Tikit and a NWT. The NWT is a proper touring bike. The Tikit is a commuter bike you can tour on. You can make either bike work for you.

Personally now that I have a NWT I don't see myself touring on a Tikit. I can pack the NWT in a small space for flying/buses and I don't envisage any trips where the quick fold of the Tikit would make it a better choice for a fully loaded tour.

vmaniqui

pardon my ignorance - what is NWT ????

thanks,
vic

vmaniqui

forget it.. i found it. new world tourist bike friday....

hardtail

It's a Bike Friday New World Tourist - one of Bike Friday's models

btw Vik I like your NWT...a lot! Maybe would prefer a different colour but love those clean lines. How is the Shimano hub? I've got a Rohloff on my regular touring and I like it, but if I go with a BF I want to avoid the cost. I reckon an Alfine or Nexus should be fine.

OldiesONfoldies

Vik, that is a great shot. I'm drooling....

Al

vik 

So far the Nexus 8 has been great, but I haven't done any loaded touring yet since it's the winter in Canada. I've been abusing an Alfine on my Pugsley and that hub has held up fine so far.

Shasha

Enjoyed this thread!!
Would anyone owning both these bikes like to update this thread! Would love to hear your reviews!

fietsbob

they only made one. it sold at auction a couple years ago ..
No, the 'Silk' is their 20" wheel type design you want, then.
The NWT would be folded hours before you got on the bus and stowed as Luggage under the bus* .. its not their commuter model.

* Although I have used a Bus, in Ireland, where the motor was under the seats between the wheels
and the big Luggage Hold is in the back (it took a regular bike whole + the panniers and a bunch of Backpacks too..

I own a Pocket Llama Bike Friday , R'off hub , I fabricated a chain retention Device to keep the Chain on the cog , with the 2 pulley spring loaded
chain tensioner for the Hub .. BiFri makes a piece that goes on the BB and bends over the chainring*, it +, the chain guard disc
+ a chainminder wrapped around the seat tube .. the folding is quite stiff , but it could be used ..
*It takes up some slack created by the rear fold.

I wouldn't .. do that, much its a project that takes premeditation..

The Tikit folds wider , (compared to the Brompton) since the rear comes along the side of the main frame...

invisiblehand

I have both. I've already discussed it in your other thread. But if you have specific questions, I'll answer them.

Shasha

Invisiblehand, your input on my other thread was invaluable...I appreciate the time you spent to write, it helped so much!

Because I am still wavering between the 2 and just can't seem to make a decision, when I ran across this thread I was looking to see if there were more riders out there that had experience with both bikes just to get some added input. This thread was started so long ago and was hoping to get some updated reviews.

I just love the portability of the Tikit.

I left work yesterday and had a 6 mile drive to the gym. If I had my bike I would have opted to ride the 6 miles. As there is no place to hitch the bike outside (and I wouldn't even if there was) I like how simple it would be to just wheel the bike in and store it in the locker room. Not sure how I would handle that with the NWT. Do I break it down and carry it in and try not to get dirty doing it, or bring the carrying bag....maybe it's not that big a deal and only takes a few minutes longer than the Tikit. I don't know.

I don't see myself ever locking the bike on a rack somewhere, I really don't. So I am comparing how I would handle both bikes should we decide to venture into an establishment with them.

I saw the video with the Tikit where the rider does his grocery shopping pushing the folded bike and filling his bags then walks out, unfolds the bike then off he goes.

With the NWT I guess I could fold the bike and plop it in a grocery cart...maybe? I don't know.

If we wanted to go into a restaurant, could you have the folded NWT rest inside the establishment? And if you did, how do you easily transport it in...do you bring the bag and carry it that way.......??

My only reason for interest in the Tikit is it's portability....I love love love that......! Some disadvantages to the bike I understand from others is the harsher ride given the 16" wheels, I have read there is some flex in the handlebar stem, and that the frame can be a little "creaky".

The NWT seems a better fit for it's comfort, smoother ride with 20" wheel. More suited for longer rides.

I also have to consider that to get the Tikit, it would have to be a good fit for my husband as well, otherwise there would be no point. And honestly I think he would go more for the comfort factor than the ease of portability.

Ideally, I would really like to hear how others are taking their NWT with them......have they come up with clever ways or have tips on how to avoid locking them to a bike stand.

I even had thoughts of make-shifting a small base with tiny easy flowing wheels that you could attach to your folded NWT that would make it more portable....lol!

It's such a big investment and I'm trying to be thorough and look at both bikes from all angles!!!

Your thoughts are extremely helpful and appreciated, thank you!

Lalato

Not to throw a wrench into the Tikit vs NWT thing... but I thought the Bike Friday Silk was essentially their attempt to make a 20" commuter folding bike? Sort of a best of both worlds.