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  1. #1
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    Mezzo dual drive conversion help

    I want to convert my Mezzo I-4 to a sram dual drive 27 speed and have some questions:

    1. what wheel should I buy and where to the proper 16 inch wheel in the USA?
    2. What about spokes? Where do I get them, and what type/size do I need.
    3. Will I need to buy a new chain, or will the current chain fit OK?
    4. What modifications, if any, will I have to make to the frame to accommodate fold.
    5. What gear inch span will I get (low gear, high gear)
    6. What did I forget to ask?

    I know bhkyte has made this mod and am hoping he can help me out here.
    Last edited by boston blackie; 09-24-09 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    A wheel = rim+spokes+hub. Are you buying a wheel, getting somebody to build you a wheel or building it your self?

    Give us a picture of the Mezzo, at present I do not remember what the bike is like. Is there space for the new hub?

    New chain is cheap compared to what you are doing here, so new chain it is. Is the old hub a IGH?

    Question 5 is a funny one. It depends on the casette/front chainring you use. Maybe buying another bike is easyer/cheaper? If not take it to a shop. f you want to be involved in doing it (more than just paying for it) I suggest you read- alot in the mechanics and folder forums first.
    °Empty drums make a lot of noice... (Old Hungarian proverb).

  3. #3
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    I will have someone build the wheel. I do want to buy the components as I do want to be sure I get the right stuff.

    I'm hoping the project will come in under $500. The bike is new this year, and I like the bike and the fold,
    I would, however, enjoy the wider gear range. I think the new hub and cassette would fit. It now has a nexus 4- speed hub.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boston blackie View Post
    I will have someone build the wheel. I do want to buy the components as I do want to be sure I get the right stuff.

    I'm hoping the project will come in under $500. The bike is new this year, and I like the bike and the fold,
    I would, however, enjoy the wider gear range. I think the new hub and cassette would fit. It now has a nexus 4- speed hub.
    More gears does ot automaticly mean wider gear range. WHAT gears you`ve got could be more important than how many gears.

    Find Sheldon Browns gear calculator on the web, and findout what gears you`ve got at present and what you can do to your present setup by changing out cog (rear) or front chainring.

    Then find out what you can get w new setup and what casette and chainwheel you need to buy.

    Still not at all sure you can put a dual drive 27 speed in the dropouts spaced for a Nexus4.Personally I`d just go for a IGH with wider range.

    I use 7 speed IGH`s on both my folders and we went touring on them (w trailer on one) this summer.
    °Empty drums make a lot of noice... (Old Hungarian proverb).

  5. #5
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boston blackie View Post
    I will have someone build the wheel. I do want to buy the components as I do want to be sure I get the right stuff.
    If you are not going to build the wheel, then I would simply go through the wheel builder. He/she will have a good idea of the answers to your questions and be responsible if something is incompatible.

  6. #6
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    More gears does ot automaticly mean wider gear range. WHAT gears you`ve got could be more important than how many gears.
    True. But the Dual Drive will definitely have a wider range than any IGH other than a Rohloff.

    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    Still not at all sure you can put a dual drive 27 speed in the dropouts spaced for a Nexus4.
    Good question.

    The OP should get a set of calipers and measure the over the locknut dimension. If you get 135 ... then woo hoo! You got the correct spacing for a SRAM Dual Drive.

  7. #7
    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    True. But the Dual Drive will definitely have a wider range than any IGH other than a Rohlhof.
    Absolutely. I guess I was trying to say that often we want more gears than we need, we think many gears= good.

    Personally I think the simplicity of the IGH`s in many cases more than makes up for the narrower ratio, especially on folders.
    °Empty drums make a lot of noice... (Old Hungarian proverb).

  8. #8
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    SRAM makes the dual drive hub in two forms, the 36 spoke hole model, and the 32 hole model. I searched the web looking for a 32 hole model and haven't been able to find it in the U.S.. Anybody have a clue where to get one of these beasts?

    I did find that Velocity sells a 16"/349 rim.

  9. #9
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boston blackie View Post
    SRAM makes the dual drive hub in two forms, the 36 spoke hole model, and the 32 hole model. I searched the web looking for a 32 hole model and haven't been able to find it in the U.S.. Anybody have a clue where to get one of these beasts?

    I did find that Velocity sells a 16"/349 rim.
    I have no idea. But it is a good idea to stay from the 36-hole hub for a 16" wheel.

  10. #10
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    Absolutely. I guess I was trying to say that often we want more gears than we need, we think many gears= good.

    Personally I think the simplicity of the IGH`s in many cases more than makes up for the narrower ratio, especially on folders.
    I'll add that in terms of need, given the small wheels a pure IGH is generally pretty good since it give a decent low end and we can always coast downhill despite Sheldon's declaration that it is pernicious.

  11. #11
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    I'll add that in terms of need, given the small wheels a pure IGH is generally pretty good since it give a decent low end and we can always coast downhill despite Sheldon's declaration that it is pernicious.
    The high end on the Mezzo I-4 is 72.3 GI. That in itself isn't too bad, but, to me, it seems that I am losing about 25% efficiency in fourth gear. Now I have no way of measuring this, and I am probably way off, but
    as they say, "Perception is 90 percent of reality." Also 39 GI on the low side can use improvement as I live in the hilly Berkshires.

    I hope to get the range from 30 GI or lower to 96 GI with plenty of options in between. To do this I will have to change my chainring to 56t from the current 44t and add a 11 - 34 cassette. The locknut width dimension on the drop-outs is 135mm so the fit should be fine.

  12. #12
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boston blackie View Post
    The high end on the Mezzo I-4 is 72.3 GI. That in itself isn't too bad, but, to me, it seems that I am losing about 25% efficiency in fourth gear. Now I have no way of measuring this, and I am probably way off, but
    as they say, "Perception is 90 percent of reality." Also 39 GI on the low side can use improvement as I live in the hilly Berkshires.

    I hope to get the range from 30 GI or lower to 96 GI with plenty of options in between. To do this I will have to change my chainring to 56t from the current 44t and add a 11 - 34 cassette. The locknut width dimension on the drop-outs is 135mm so the fit should be fine.
    Can a LX/XT GS rear derailer -- the medium length tension pulley -- work with a 34 tooth cog? I know it works with a 32. Keep an eye on that low derailer.

  13. #13
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boston blackie View Post
    I want to convert my Mezzo I-4 to a sram dual drive 27 speed and have some questions:

    1. what wheel should I buy and where to the proper 16 inch wheel in the USA?
    2. What about spokes? Where do I get them, and what type/size do I need.
    3. Will I need to buy a new chain, or will the current chain fit OK?
    4. What modifications, if any, will I have to make to the frame to accommodate fold.
    5. What gear inch span will I get (low gear, high gear)
    6. What did I forget to ask?

    I know bhkyte has made this mod and am hoping he can help me out here.
    HI

    1. 349 rim. spoke number needs to mate with the rim you buy .ie. 36 spoke. I have used a Brompton rim on one ,and a "Sun" on the other conversion. I am based in UK so can not help about USA distribution. Brompton = Alesa 16 x 1 3/8 / 349 Rim - QRIM

    2. You need to get a LBS to cut down some spokes.

    3. You will probably need a new longer chain, I have only ever delt with D9’s

    4. As far as i know there are no modifications needed to the frame as all versions are a 135mm rear axle. I am pretty certain drailer hangers thread are still located on the D4 ,but check. Else its not a big job.

    5. You can also upgrade to a 56 front gog. With the standard 54 on 11= 107.3 low gear= 23- 28 according to tooth size(21t/28t) with a 56= 111.3 from Sheldron browns site.

    6. You need to route the exrta cable next to the draylier cable. Due to having to locate a IHG and a drailer I have had to remove the clip that lock the forks to the rear frame when folding. I place the QR between the rear triangle stays, and then the bars press them in to place also, which is fine, but not as securely locked together. I am still thinking about this bit! See picture before the bars are folded on to the wheel.


    My conclusion on the conversion. The 27 speed converted bike I have with bull bars and brifters is fabulous. The close ratio gearsing (11-23) works great on a fast road bike giving instanst fine changes to optimise cadence or gross shifts that are far superior to a front drailyer. So much so that I often overtake good cyclist just because of this shifting ability at junctions and roundabouts. This makes a big difference around town. Petty about the security of self locking fold, but I can live with it fine. (Picture) Conclusion dual drive is perfect on this fast road going folder.

    The other dual drive mezzo I have is a standard handbar with 24 speed gripshifts. This is an improvement over the original bike as the gearing is better and there is a similar advantage in the shifting. However if I found a cheap 8 speed nexus hub I would try that if I converted another simular bike to this. Therefore the choice may come down to price for each hub and the cost of a drailer in your case. Once I worked out the problems in fitting the dualdrive on the first bike I was able to do the second Mezzo in about 2 hours. Any further question feel free to email me. Sorry I have no current/new pictures as by camera is broken.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by bhkyte; 09-28-09 at 03:45 PM.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  14. #14
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    BHKYTE,

    Thank you for your response.

    My dealer just emailed me that he did not think that I could install the Sram DD. He says, "The fender bar is in the way!" I'm guessing he means the fold clamp (see photo#1). Can you secure fold with a velcro strap, or bungy cord?

    I am including some photos of some simple mods. such as inline skate wheels that substantially improve rolling when folded. The small white piece of 3/4 inch PVC extends the rest stand to make up for the extra height of the rollers.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Nice pictures,sorry I only have old pictures of mine,must get a new camera.Wish I could put some closeups on for you.

    Yes the clip in picture one will need removing to fit the dual drive. You can also opt to use a 3X9 with out the clickbox,as the older picture of mine shows,but either way this has to go. I planned initially to move it to the pannier? hole that you can see above the wheel bolt. This does not quite workout. I have mentioned how I secure the fold in my earlier post. It is not ideal ,if you have any better ideas I would be very interested. Latest thought is a julibee clip with a hook or simular to secure the QR. To be honest I am too busy enjojing the bike to worry about it. It gets folded around 10 times a day and it makes little difference to me, its a slightly smaller ,but less securely locked package done this way. I use the bars to help secure the front wheel in place also. I do not need to use a bungee or strap, but it may be preferable if other people handle your bike.

    If you use the click box then you need to remove the cover, (this makes the box a bit smaller and does not alter its function).One removes a single screw,from memory. I run a click box on my black bullbar3X9 and a toggle chain through a SA wheel bolt on the gold 3X7 bike. The click box is a bit smoother.

    Couple of more hints ;
    1. Telon cables best on a MEzzo Upgrade the rear brake and see what I mean. Allow plenty of length. Possibly use tandem if you want to be sure I will measure mine for you if you want.
    2. when inserting the innercable you may find it easier to fold the bike slighty to get round the botttom bracket. General MEzzo hint anyway.
    3. Around the bottom bracket area you will need to secure the extra cable to either one of the rear cables so that it keeps to one side when folding. Else the seat post tube can not go in.Couple of plastic ties does the job fine.
    4. You may need to adjust the cone shaped spacer that sits at the back of the void behind the BB.I replaced mine with a screw.

    The conversion should be easy now you know the things to watch out for!

    ps It's great to speak some Mezzo upgrading.

    Questions for you;
    1. why did you choose not to use the rack mount for your rear light instead?
    2.is that a cordless computer? What make is it?
    3. do the rollerblade wheels get in the way of sliding the Mezzo bag on? whats the spacer made from?
    4. Ever thought of puting a wheel on the front mudguard instead of a foot?

    thanks
    Last edited by bhkyte; 09-29-09 at 04:23 AM.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  16. #16
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    BY the way I got a new spare sach 3X7 from ebay UK. About £25 including postage. The 3X9 was off a new MBT wheel, I bought the wheel and sold some of the bits.gross cost £75.
    the wheel fitted on the 3X7 bike come of an upgraded space genie bike I bought and then sold on ebay, but thats another story!
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  17. #17
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    ps It's great to speak some Mezzo upgrading.

    Questions for you;
    1. why did you choose not to use the rack mount for your rear light instead?
    2.is that a cordless computer? What make is it?
    3. do the rollerblade wheels get in the way of sliding the Mezzo bag on? whats the spacer made from?
    4. Ever thought of puting a wheel on the front mudguard instead of a foot?

    thanks[/QUOTE]

    Answers:
    1. Couldn't see how to do it without interfering with parking position of the bike and/or the mounting of the Mezzo bag.
    2. No it is a cheap cat-eye speedometer. There is just enough wire to not interfere with the fold.
    3. The wheels don't interfere with the mounting of the bag at all. The spacer is a standard plastic spacer found in the screw bins of my local hardware store. The wheel bearings fit perfectly on the
    1/4" x 2 1/2" bolts from the same bins.
    4. The wheel on the mudguard is a good idea, but it would require a bit more engineering and may not work after all that effort. It was simple just to cut off a piece of PVC pipe, and it slips right on over the foot, and is held there by friction.

    I tried folding the bike without using the clamp using your method. I can see that it won't work for me.
    The front wheel drops and negates the wheeling aspect of the fold. Now I'm having second thoughts. I'm going to research whether an sram I motion 9 will work, or a Rohloff. Problem the I-motion 9 comes with 36 holes. That's a lot of spokes for a 16" wheel that looks crowded now with 28 spokes.
    Do you think either of these will create the same problem with the clamp? Having never seen the sram dual drive hub, I can not picture what it is that causes the problem with the clamp. Is it the derailler, the cable, or what?
    Last edited by boston blackie; 09-29-09 at 08:20 AM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Thanks.
    The cateye cube light does not interfere with either the parking or the rack. It is recomended by mezzo due to this reason. Properly works well on a Brompton also.

    The clip needs removing due to the fact that dual drive needs a drailyer mounting and a IHG changer. There simply is not enough space for the clip also. It should not provide difficulties for other systems.

    Mine is laced with 36 spokes. Maybe I should have tried seeing if a LBS would miss every 3rd to provide a 24.You could also go for 18 spokes, but I wouldn't. I have very light gauge spokes in mine.

    I agree the bike is not as good for wheeling, however I have got used to tilting the bike if I chose to wheel it. Its not completely satisatory, but I rarely use this function anyway. If you do and we can not find a solution you maybe best in going for a premium quality IHG with more spoke choices. Thats the beauty of the Mezzo for upgrading.
    Last edited by bhkyte; 09-29-09 at 11:13 AM.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  19. #19
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Just remembered.
    Another possible solution to the fork clip is to mount it where the rack support is. This looks a definite possibility, but will reguire a longer threaded bolt,and possibly a washer between the support and the back of the clip. This is another idea that looks good ,but I have not around to trying it yet. let me know what you think.

    Ps I just discovered I can lock the fold on my black bullbared bike. I can use the seat post clamp lever to press against the brake levers locking the bars against the wheel and the wheel against the frame.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  20. #20
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhkyte View Post
    Just remembered.
    Another possible solution to the fork clip is to mount it where the rack support is. This looks a definite possibility, but will reguire a longer threaded bolt,and possibly a washer between the support and the back of the clip. This is another idea that looks good ,but I have not around to trying it yet. let me know what you think.

    Ps I just discovered I can lock the fold on my black bullbared bike. I can use the seat post clamp lever to press against the brake levers locking the bars against the wheel and the wheel against the frame.
    It looks to me like mounting the clip on the rack support would bring the front wheel down too low, if it's what I think you mean.
    Congrats on the seat clamp maneuver.

  21. #21
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Another method which looks promising is to use the pannier? hole. but use a mending plate to postion the clip where I need it.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  22. #22
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    I tried the mending plate method idea last night on the gold bike. It works. Its really easy,talk about forgetting the bleeding obvious!

    Therefore a dual drive mezzo reguires.
    1.an extra cable to rout
    2.a cable stopper
    3. a quick plate making up to locate the frame clip.
    4. the case of the click box removing if you use one.
    5 a few cable tries to secure the last section of the cable run.
    6. A bit of patience!

    This results in a really nice bike. I feel if my black bike was but into production it would sell like hot cakes ,but what do I know. I can even come up with the idea of a simple plate! I am off to get some cake.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  23. #23
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    After racking my brains about converting my Mezzo I-4 and as I would have to change the cranks and chainwheel as well as purchase a rim and have it laced to a new hub, buy a lot of tools,etc. the cost and effort would be more than the cost of a new 2008 Dahon Mu P24. So, I decided to keep my Mezzo the way it is, and I ordered the Dahon for group rides and long individual rides. It is dual drive 24 speed with a gear inch range of 21 - 114 inches. What do you Think? Now I'll have two folders, and I'll be well on my way to owning a stable of folders like many of the contributers to this forum. Yeah, I know, I'm becoming addicted.

    I may have to go to rehab... no, no, no.

  24. #24
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Seems a good idea if you cant get a dualdrive hub cheap. However you don't need a new chainwheel or crank, don't understand that?

    The disadvantage of the Dahon idea is that you will not have a really compact fast folding bike that's upgraded, but you have the advantage of a second bike. I prefer to have one flexible package, although I have 4 folders, I mainly use the black Mezzo.

    It need not be as expensive as you think.
    The 3X7 wheel cost £37 gross as I bought a mission space genie bike with a 3X7 fitted and swoped it for a mezzo rear wheel then sold that bike for £37 less.
    The Gold 3x7 mezzo cost £389 brand new. Therefore the total cost to buy and build this dual drive mezzo = £426 including bike.

    You just need to look on ebay and get a wheel built up with a bargain hub.

    my other experience
    Used mezzo bought with intention of upgrade £379 on ebay imaculate bike with loads of extras (quality d locks,lights,waterproofs,tools,speedo,

    £100 dual drive wheel for MBT unused

    £100 wheel build and lovely sram 9 speed close ratio block
    rim£30
    bars £ 5 used

    triagia str brakes shifters 3X9 £ 60 used immaculate

    cables,bits and bobs £30

    total £709 including bike with bag and loads of spares.

    however ,sold rear wheel for £25,sold MBT cluster for £25, total = £659


    I know what you mean,upgrading can be a headache, but I am extremely pleased with my high performance compact folder! There are a issues with going for the dual drive, but it ends up being a unique bike that folds very compact ,very quickly, and has much of the dynamic capability of larger bike. I will post some recent pictures as I have a camera arriving in the post soon!

    Their is a tread I started on Mezzo upgrades if anyone wants to post any upgrade ideas there also

    Mezzo/Ori folding bike upgrades?
    Last edited by bhkyte; 10-06-09 at 04:48 AM.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  25. #25
    Senior Member boston blackie's Avatar
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    You did very well getting those components at those prices. If I could match your experience I would go for it.
    The Mezzo I-4 has a 44 tooth four bolt chainwheel. In all my googling I couldn't find a 53 tooth four bolt chainring, hence my thinking of need for new crank. The Mezzo D-9, and D-10 already come with 53, and 56t rings and 5 bolt.
    I got one price for wheel built with I-motion 9 hub 696 GBP (398USD) plus shipping then add cost of shifter, chain, cranks, misc., I would be close to, or over the 619USD (990GBP) that I paid for the Dahon Mu P24.

    By the way, the price of a new Mezzo D-9 in NY is just about double what you paid for yours.
    Last edited by boston blackie; 10-06-09 at 05:26 AM.

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