Urbanis

I'm trying to figure out how to improve my current bicycle fleet (which includes a folder) to better meet my riding needs. I am confused about how to proceed and would appreciate your thoughts.

My current fleet: Downtube Mini, Jamis Aurora

My riding needs:
1. General commuting to work and around NYC. My work commute distance is 12 miles one-way and jaunts around the city can go over 20 miles (e.g., Northern Manhattan to central Brooklyn).
2. Ability to lock on the street for up to 4 hours time (not overnight) with *reasonable* expectation that bicycle will not be stolen.
3. Long-distance rides (e.g., centuries)
4. Portability/foldability for use on trains, bus holds, taxi cab trunks, etc.
5. Desire to keep fleet to 2 bicycles; 3 feels excessive.

How well my fleet does the job:
* The Jamis great for #1 and #3. I love the ride, I completed three centuries on it this summer, and it's a keeper. However, I would not lock it up on the street in NYC; it's too expensive (okay, I did once, but I was sitting at an outdoor cafe table with the bike directly in sight). Thankfully, I can take my bike into my office building, but it's not a commuting solution for when I want to go other places.

* The Mini is great for #4. I would also feel comfortable locking it on the street with tough locks (which I have). However, I'm feeling now it falls short on #1. When I first got the Mini in '08, I fell completely in love with it and rode it everywhere (including 30-mile distances); now that I have the Jamis, when I get on the Mini it feels like a lot more effort to pedal any distance above a few miles. I feel like I want more performance out of a folding bike and am wondering if it is time for us to part ways.

One solution would be to use the Mini exclusively as a "travel bike" when I go out of town and need to take it in a train or bus or car trunk, then add a non-folding full-size beater bike for commuting. I am resisting this solution because I really don't want to have to feed and care for three bikes.

Ideally, I'd like a folder that could satisfy needs #1, 2, and 4 (and thus keep the fleet to two bicycles). So the folder would have to give a decent ride for up to 30 miles at a stretch. Also, I've discovered that as much as I like the concept of internal hubs, I'm happier with a classic derailleur set-up where I can shift while pedaling and change rear flats easily. Third, I like the compactness of the Mini's 16" wheels for storage and use on buses, trains, etc., but if the performance I'm looking for can only be had with 20" wheels, I'm willing to try them. Fourth, I'm looking for a sub-$500 price point so that the bike is a less attractive target to thieves and if it does get stolen, I won't be utterly crushed. Finally, I'd like a bike that rides decently stock; I've done lots of customizations on my Mini and I'm sick of it (whereas with the Jamis, all I did was add fenders, a kickstand, and rear rack).

I'm thinking one of the cheaper Dahon models (Speed D7, Eco 3, Speed P8, Mariner D7) or the Downtube Nova might meet these criteria, but I'd love some input and ideas.

biaddiction

How about 1. a full size road bike with flat handlebar and a little bit thicker 700c tire like 700x26
2. a brompton folder: I know it's expensive but they are holding their value very well.
in this way, you only need 2 bikes! ! !

chucky

Sounds like your current combination is best, but for some reason you're not satisfied with the Mini. Can you elaborate on what the problem is?

I mean, I could understand if you said the mini falls short for #3, but it seems perfect for #1.

Urbanis

Hi, my feeling about the Mini is that it's NOT perfect for #1: when I ride over a few miles, it feels like it's "not enough bike"--it feels effortful to pedal (compared to the Jamis) and I'm not happy with the internal hub action. I'd rather shift while pedaling and be able to change rear flats easily, something you get with a standard derailleur set-up. Maybe I've just outgrown it. Remember, I am usually riding upwards of 10 miles one-way for a commute and it's not all flat.

I realize that a folder is not a racing bike, but I'd like a little more robust performance and feel closer to a larger bike, which is why I'm thinking a 20"-wheel model may do the trick.

chucky

Maybe your Mini just needs to be overhauled.

How much slower is it over 12 miles of NYC roads? Just asking because I'm really no faster or slower no matter which bike I'm on. I have to work a little harder on a "slow" bike, but it doesn't actually make me slower because I catch up at the traffic lights. When you had it, did you like your 20" Downtube better than the Mini (was it faster)?

Bacciagalupe

Oh, 3 is fine. But if you prefer 2:

• Beater bike (folding or standard) for commuting and to lock up on the street
• Road bike for the long rides

For short rides and commutes, I don't think you'll see a big performance difference between 16" and 20", unless the 16" has suspension. A 20" bike will be fine for rides up to 30 miles though, in terms of both performance and comfort.

The best way to prevent a bike getting stolen or stripped is:
• massive U-lock for the rear wheel + frame to a pole etc
• smaller U-lock, or a locking skewer, to lock the front wheel to the frame
• use a cable lock for the saddle

And of course, don't get too attached to it. If it gets swiped, it gets swiped, c'est la guerre.

chucky

For a regular bike.

For a folder you can lock both wheels, saddle, and frame with a relatively short, but beefy chain. It eliminates a lot of weight for high security locking (or adds a lot of security to relatively low weight) and is very flexible in that you can always remove the saddle or wheel to finagle a little extra chain slack for locking to odd shaped objects.

Bacciagalupe

Sure, assuming you can get the u-lock through both wheels, the frame and around whatever you're locking it to. That might not be possible every time, so a locking skewer may be in order.

chucky

...and you still need to protect the seat.

IMO it all just takes too long. With a folder I can get everything locked up with the flexibility to lock to almost anything much quicker.

Urbanis

Thanks for everyone's input so far. Chucky, can you provide a URL for a "short, beefy chain" you like? Also, I've love to hear more thoughts from folks about bike options as discussed in the original post (not just locking solutions).

So, I'm leaning towards the Nova, (1) because I like Downtubes, (2) the low rice point (3) the option to increase gearing options by adding a front derailleur and converting to 21-speed. I'd love to get an orange bike, but since this is meant to be locked outside on those occasions I can't bring it in, blue is going to attract less attention (I think).

Anyone have experience with the Nova or any of the Dahons I mentioned?

Bacciagalupe

Sure, but with a normal bike, you can do the "bike chain" trick. And afaik the chains are more versatile but are heavier than a u-lock. The chain also might not be long enough to lock everything on a bike like a Swift (though Mini is probably fine). I.e. pick your poison.

Having extensively used and locked up both types, seems pretty clear to me that the big advantage for a folder in terms of theft is not how you lock it up, it's that you can bring it indoors much easier and in many more situations.

chucky

I like the $20 chain w/ lock here:
https://www.dawsonsecurity.com/chain.html
(not the similar bike specific chain which doesn't seem to justify its $60 price tag)

But you might prefer something even beefier like a kryptonite noose or just something from a local lock smith.

Sorry I can't help recommending a bike. A big thing for you seems to be that you want a derailleur and I dislike derailleurs.

The closer together you can bring the parts that need to be locked the shorter chain you need which reduces weight; More importantly it's quicker to bring the parts of a folder close together (for example, quicker to fold the frame than remove the front wheel). A u-lock is good if that's all you need is one u-lock, but when you need one for the front, plus one for the back, plus a cable lock for the seat I think a short chain is lighter (particularly if the u-locks are big enough to easily lock to a variety of objects) and quicker. I'm not sure how extensively you've locked folders, but it took me many years to figure out that locking a folder (well some folders, probably not the swift) is easier and more secure if you do it right.

Personally I don't see a single big advantage for a folder in terms of theft (at least not anything bigger than a microfolder). I prefer a folder because I can lock it quicker and if I don't want to lock it I may be able to bring it with me a little more easily and if I do bring it with me an internal hub is much less troublesome (no worrying about knocking the derailleur or getting oil on things) and folders with internal hubs are more prevalent and are a better value than nonfolders with internal hubs.

So I guess I don't really see eye to eye with the OP since he's pretty set on a derailleur. But for me actually folding a bike and taking it inside is just one prong of a multifaceted approach and if I were looking for a bike that had to have a derailleur I don't think I'd even bother making it a folder.

Honestly I don't know why the OP doesn't just go folderless like you. While I don't understand it, they don't seem to suit his stated preferences. By themselves a hinged frame and smallish wheel are not that useful.

Urbanis

Folders are useful for traveling (bringing on trains, buses, putting a cab trunk, etc.) and many folders are made without IGHs.

chucky

How about a Montague?

Urbanis

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, the Montagues are too large for traveling/storage (26" wheels--want to keep to 20" or smaller) and above the $500 price range (since this is for a bike that will be periodically at risk for theft).

cbinfl

I don't commute, but I'm real happy with my new Nova. Only upgrade is the seat and a rear rack. The seat went after the first 20 mile ride. No interference from the rack for folding. Most of weight on the back wheel which will probably wear 2-3 times faster. Thats OK since I'd like a wider tire in the rear. At least it looks that way from the first 150 +/- miles. Very solid ride and steering.

TrekJapan

For a folder that does great at commuting look no further than a Dahon Speed TR.

John

GeorgePaul

You can shift while pedaling with an internal hub. And, unlike with a derailleur, you can shift when stopped. I have 2 bicycles with Nexus 3 speed hubs and don't have any problem removing the rear wheels.

randya

I'm not sure I get why the Downtube Mini is such an effort to pedal? is it because it's geared too high? if so, you could replace the stock chainring with a smaller one. If it's because you don't fit on it quite so well, that's another story altogether.

chucky

Well I then I think you know you're choices are either Downtubes or low end Dahons. But while I personally I don't have tons of experience with 16" bikes, I never thought them to be a major difference to 20" bikes. I just gravitate towards 20" bikes because they're cheaper.

Didn't you previously own a 20" Downtube? Did you find a performance difference compared to your Mini consummate with your current goal? I haven't detected much difference between the low end Dahons and my 20" Downtubes.

+1 I wonder if perhaps he's worn out the front or rear hub or the bottom bracket or if he just needs to overhaul them. The OP seems to have done a lot of riding on his Mini and, while Downtubes are good bikes, the components aren't exactly top shelf.

Perhaps it's not him that's changed ("outgrown"), but the bike?

SesameCrunch

Urbanis:

I'm not one to talk anyone out of getting a new folder , so go get a new one if your heart's set on it.

However, if you're truly unhappy with the Mini's riding performance, the simplest, most effective thing you can do is to switch to a thinner, higher psi tire. That'll increase the speed. Also, is the bike fit correct for you? I had to lengthen the cockpit by adding a stem and raising the seatpost past the min. line (after bolstering the post). Finally, are your hubs set too tight? Do they rotate freely? That's a common phenomenon with IGH's.

Anyway, go get a new bike (or two). Heck, Christmas is coming up...

Urbanis

Hi all, thanks for your input so far. SesameCrunch, congrats, BTW, on scoring a cheap Brompton! But don't encourage me to get more bikes; I live in Manhattan--we don't have a lot of space here.

So, what I mean by "effortful"--it's probably the reverse of what people think I mean (sorry for the imprecision). It's not a lack of having low enough gears, or feeling that it's "too hard" to pedal. The way I can describe it is that when I've got the bike in a gear where I'm comfortable pedaling at my usual cadence, I feel I can't go very far very fast--like I'm doing a lot of pedaling for not a lot of movement. Whereas, when I'm on my Jamis (the full-size touring bike), I feel like just put my feet to the pedal and go, like a swimmer with powerful strokes slicing through the water. Does this make sense?

I'm not expecting the Mini to perform like that, but I'd like it to feel more like a comfy city bike--not speed demon, but something you can ride at a comfortable pace. That's why I'm thinking a slightly larger-wheel bike may be more robust. And it would be nice to have more carrying capacity for touring--panniers, etc.--which a 20"er can provide.

I sold the 8H a while back, but I remember that it felt like a more robust riding experience. It was also more of pain to manage multi-modally, but so it goes. It looks like the Nova may correct the main problem I had with the 8H, which was the stem folding on the outside, creating an unbalanced package (I much prefer the Mini's fold with the stem on the inside).

I'm 5'8" and don't think fit is the issue. I currently have Big Apple tires on it, which inflate to 70 PSI.

Urbanis

cbinfl, what do you mean that on your Nova, "the seat went after the first 20 mile ride"? Did the saddle fall apart? Did the seatpost bend or break?

cbinfl

Just came back from a ride to town. I meant my butt decided that i needed a new seat. The riding position is pretty upright and the seat is rather narrow. The stock seat is a good quality seat. I gave it to my grandson, he's eleven, and bought a Brooks' B67. I thought long and hard about springs/ no springs, but I'm glad i went with the springs (B67). Very comfortable.

chucky

Sounds like the problem is that the Mini's wheels are much heavier than the Jamis'.

IMO that slicing sensation comes from an instant response and since increasing weight delays the response of the bike to pedaling (and rotating weight doubly delays the response) the slicing sensation is killed by extra weight. Extra weight literally forces you to store up some extra energy in every stroke (delay==storage), which feels sluggish and probably is sluggish in the statistical sense (because, simply put, "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush").

Therefore, I agree with SesameCrunch that the solution is a skinnier lighter tire, not necessarily a bigger wheel (unless you need the suspension provided by a bigger wheel and can make up for the extra weight with a better rim, an even skinnier tire, etc). Try ditching the Big Apples if you can (although I guess that's easier said than done as tire selection for ERTO305 is rather dismal).

Moreover I don't think a 20" wheel will give you more carrying capacity than 16". While the availability of off the shelf solutions might make it easier to get more carrying capacity for 700c or 26", the same conveniences are not afforded to 20" wheels. It's just common sense that the bigger the wheel is the less space there is for carrying stuff; So the only obstacle with a smaller wheel is that you need to rig up your own solutions which is equally as problematic for 20" and 16" wheels (unless, of course, you shoe horn 700c stuff onto a 20" wheel, but that'll just be inefficient spacewise...not very prudent for touring).

But you seem to have your heart set on a 20" so why don't you try it and prove me wrong? It will be a fun little experiment (after all everything I've said above is just what I feel is the most reasonable explanation of my experiences and your descriptions, but reason dictates that new experiences might warrant a new explanation). Also, FYI, direction of stem riser folding is easy to change on folders whose stem risers aren't angled (ie not Dahons); I switched the stem riser on my 8H to fold inwards (check the Downtube thread for more details).