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  1. #1
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    Adding Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub to 20" single speed folder?

    Hi folks,

    I recently bought a cheap Schwinn folding bike, as my Dahon was stolen last year . The Schwinn is single speed, and am planning to convert it to a multi-speed with an internally geared hub. The frame seems quite solid, but the one default gear is very short (maybe about 50 gear-inches or so?). 20" pre-built wheels with internally geared hubs don't seem to be common around here, and I'm not sure it would be worth the money to get something custom laced.

    Here's a Sturmey Archer SRF3 in a 20" wheel, intended for trike use:
    http://www.utahtrikes.com/PRODINFO-S...Wheel_Kit.html
    Looks like it might work, and the price is great. The included cog is a T20, might also try replacing it with something a little smaller like T17-T18.

    Unfortunately, the trike hub is stated as being 130mm wide, and the Schwinn measures 110mm between the rear forks (opening to the back like a BMX-type). While the frame is steel, the forks on a folder are much shorter than on a full-sized bike, so I'm concerned that cold-set widening might not work well (any experiences?).

    As an alternative, I see that Sturmey-Archer makes the SRF3 in some narrower widths too (but again, lacing the hub up would probably not be worth the price), and the 148mm axle has an overlocknut width of 108mm, perfect. I was thinking, perhaps it might be possible to get the Utah Trike Wheel, get a SRF3 hub in the narrow axle width, and swap axles?
    http://www.sturmey-archer.com/produc.../id/17/specs/1

    I'm assuming the shell and other components across versions are the same. Not sure how difficult it would be to disassemble/reassemble, but the idea would be that afterwards, I would have both my wheel and a perfectly usable extra hub (now with 130mm axle) I could resell elsewhere.

    I see some old info posted by rekall with a similar problem (regarding a BMX conversion). Maybe I'll be lucky, and I just need to take out some spacers to make it fit. The longer axle might interfere with folding a bit, but maybe I could Dremel the extra off or something.
    http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-422775.html
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...66#post8248866

    Any ideas or comments would be appreciated, including sources for alternate 20" wheels. I'm in Southeastern Pennsylvania.

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    Why limit yourself to three speeds? A seven or eight speed IGH is much better, trust me.

  3. #3
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    Why limit yourself to three speeds? A seven or eight speed IGH is much better, trust me.
    I believe you. I'm trying to keep the cost down, partly due to thrift (I'm a grad student), but also partly due to the high rate of bike theft here in Philly (hence the cheap Schwinn frame). A 7 or 8 gear hub would be nice, but a bit too much for me to risk losing.

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    In that case, its better to set it up as fixed gear and use the other side to ride home when you're tired. It almost makes a good bike theft deterrent to any one unfamiliar with FG riding.

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    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    SA Three speeds have nice wide gearing, unless you have killer hills it shouldn't be a problem, just select the sprocket size based on the biggest hill you regularly have to climb.

    I don't think cold setting to gain an extra centimeter on each side is a problem at all.

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    I'd just use a classic old Sturmey-Archer AW hub at 116 mm OLD and relace the wheel yourself using Sheldon Brown's instructions. 20" wheels are easy to build up, and you'll probably save a bunch of dough. The old SA AW hubs are bulletproof and cheap- you can probably find a free one without much trouble. Just make sure it has the same number of spoke holes as your rim...

  7. #7
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    It almost makes a good bike theft deterrent to any one unfamiliar with FG riding.
    I'm not that comfortable with fixed gears, so it makes a pretty good rider deterrent too, in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    I don't think cold setting to gain an extra centimeter on each side is a problem at all.
    http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-483898.html
    I see some discussion here, including an example of someone who succesfully cold-set a Raleigh 20" frame from 116 to 135 for an IGH. So looks like it can be done safely.

    Quote Originally Posted by cycle_maven View Post
    I'd just use a classic old Sturmey-Archer AW hub at 116 mm OLD and relace the wheel yourself using Sheldon Brown's instructions. 20" wheels are easy to build up, and you'll probably save a bunch of dough.
    I have a 3-speed classic roadster stored away, and it's still working actually so I could scavenge the hub if necessary. Considering the option of lacing my own wheel (never done it before), I was also thinking about trying to find a 2-speed kickback hub also.

  8. #8
    tcs
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    The 110mm OLD Sturmey hub and the 130mm OLD Sturmey hub are the same hub, just with different length axles and 10mm + 10mm spacers/thicker nuts to create the difference.

    Use thinner nuts and/or move the spacers to outside the drop outs as required.

    tcs
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

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    I have done a Sturmey-Archer AW three speed conversion on my formerly single speed Dahon (photos of this bike on my Flickr Page below and at The Evolution Of My Folding Bicycles. I too am on a limited income then and now but I still opted to have a local bike shop do the work. I am still using the same bike around hilly terrain after 6 years and it works fine for the jobs I intend it for. So I would recommend for you to convert yours too. The only thing that concerns me is the great chance of theft in your area as mine has. I make it a point to take any bike (cheap or expensive) with me everywhere, no exceptions. I don't lock it outside anywhere, not even at my residence. Any bike is becoming more valuable as more people are taking to them for transportation (car, even public transit substitute) and this demand-and the resulting thievery- reflects this. There is no such thing as "disposable bikes" anymore as the decent used bikes once used for theft deterrent are quickly snapped up and their value-and prices-climb too. That is the single most obvious answer to this growing problem (at 29% just for reported cases) in my area and how I deal with it. I cannot afford to lose any of my prized possessions and neither it appears, can you.
    Last edited by folder fanatic; 04-29-10 at 08:51 PM.

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    Theft in Philly?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guppeh View Post
    I believe you. I'm trying to keep the cost down, partly due to thrift (I'm a grad student), but also partly due to the high rate of bike theft here in Philly (hence the cheap Schwinn frame). A 7 or 8 gear hub would be nice, but a bit too much for me to risk losing.
    If it's a folder, why aren't you just taking it inside with you? I thought that was one of the points about folders.

    My favorite commuting bike was stolen in Phila. back in the Eighties. They cut through a case hardened chain to steal my ride..... Some things must not change.....

  11. #11
    rhm
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    Guppeh, how many spokes on your current rear wheel?

    If 28 (as is likely) you will find it's easy to source a 28H AW hub remarkably cheap. In fact, I have one myself. Rebuilding your wheel with the AW hub is... well, if you've never laced up a wheel, it's a lot of fun. I highly recommend it, it'll clear your head for an hour... something any graduate student will value!

  12. #12
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    The 110mm OLD Sturmey hub and the 130mm OLD Sturmey hub are the same hub, just with different length axles and 10mm + 10mm spacers/thicker nuts to create the difference.
    Thanks for the confirmation on this. Using the longer axle, there will be a bit extra that sticks out, and may interfere with folding it all the way back. Wondering how hard it would be to have that cut off, if the LBS could do something like that. Or maybe I'll just ignore it, though the extra protrusion also results in something more to snag on things or get damaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by folder fanatic View Post
    I too am on a limited income then and now but I still opted to have a local bike shop do the work. I am still using the same bike around hilly terrain after 6 years and it works fine for the jobs I intend it for. So I would recommend for you to convert yours too.
    I think I may take it to the local shop to have it put together also, I'm sure they'll be able to do a much neater-looking job with the cable management and such. I'm also worried about the possibility that I may mess something up playing with the axle (looking at rekall's account of how he damaged his hub after loosening the inner set of nuts too much).

    Quote Originally Posted by folder fanatic View Post
    The only thing that concerns me is the great chance of theft in your area as mine has. I make it a point to take any bike (cheap or expensive) with me everywhere, no exceptions.
    I make sure to store it indoors at home, definitely. I don't think I'll be able to take it indoors at some of my destinations however. I currently use a link-plate lock for the compactness and flexibility, but I may upgrade to one of the thicker u-locks (thus meeting the "all bikes weigh 40 pounds" rule) . Also considering engraving/etching, where do people usually go to do that sort of work?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhm View Post
    Guppeh, how many spokes on your current rear wheel?

    If 28 (as is likely) you will find it's easy to source a 28H AW hub remarkably cheap. In fact, I have one myself. Rebuilding your wheel with the AW hub is... well, if you've never laced up a wheel, it's a lot of fun. I highly recommend it, it'll clear your head for an hour... something any graduate student will value!
    Yupyup, 28-spokes. I've decided to go with the completed wheel from UtahTrike though. It comes with the shifting equipment as well, making it a pretty good deal all put together. Wonder if I can get anything for the old wheel at a swap meet or something. Anyway, if I ever move up to a fancier hub someday, I'll get a chance to lace my own then.

  13. #13
    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppeh View Post
    I think I may take it to the local shop to have it put together also, I'm sure they'll be able to do a much neater-looking job with the cable management and such. I'm also worried about the possibility that I may mess something up playing with the axle (looking at rekall's account of how he damaged his hub after loosening the inner set of nuts too much).
    Good Idea. Better safe than sorry (and still going to the bike shop to fix your attempted bike upgrade. But don't be shy about learning how they do it afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guppeh View Post
    I make sure to store it indoors at home, definitely. I don't think I'll be able to take it indoors at some of my destinations however. I currently use a link-plate lock for the compactness and flexibility, but I may upgrade to one of the thicker u-locks (thus meeting the "all bikes weigh 40 pounds" rule) . Also considering engraving/etching, where do people usually go to do that sort of work?
    Etching/engraving, even stick-on bike license decals that cities and towns sell for similar ID purposes are a nice way of identifying a bike in a normal non-recovery situations. But the thief/thieves and other shady creatures don't play by society's rules. The bike is either stripped of parts, frames painted over, or the engravings filed down to lessen the chance of the rightful owner getting the bike back. In my Website on Google (see below), I go into more detail on how I take the bike into hostile-to-bikes public situations (like hospitals, library, schools, etc.) by various means. This includes bagging/slipcovers (instant luggage), using s luggage cart, shopping cart/trolley, and the like to keep the bike with me without someone with authority ordering me to "lock the bike up".

  14. #14
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    Ive put a aw 3 speed alloy wheel onto my Concept city folding bike. It was single speed. But had tabs on the frame for the cable. Its on my City boy thread.

    Ive got a few hubs still. Some 28 hole ones. Including a AG 3 speed Dyno hub from my BSA Twenty. Two of S3B 3 speed with small diameter drum brake, from Raleigh RSWs. A Duomatic 2 speed kick back coaster hub from a Moulton.

    Also got some new SA gear cables. Various sizes of cogs. And other SA parts.

    I have a spoke threading machine. was going to build the AG onto a 406 rim for my BSA.

    Im getting rid of all my stuff. But the problem for you is that Im in Scotland. And I dont want to post things overseas

  15. #15
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by folder fanatic View Post
    In my Website on Google (see below), I go into more detail on how I take the bike into hostile-to-bikes public situations (like hospitals, library, schools, etc.) by various means. This includes bagging/slipcovers (instant luggage), using s luggage cart, shopping cart/trolley, and the like to keep the bike with me without someone with authority ordering me to "lock the bike up".
    Thanks for the info, you've got quite a bit of interesting stuff up on your website. I'll need to get a bag for this. I see a lot of reasonably priced bags on Ebay, although it's hard to get a sense of how good the quality is from pictures alone (and I almost never see them in the local stores, there's not much demand).

    Quote Originally Posted by griftereck View Post
    Im getting rid of all my stuff. But the problem for you is that Im in Scotland. And I dont want to post things overseas
    Aww~! Some nice stuff you have. Well, I'm sure you'll find someone to take it in Europe, both folders and IGHs seem to be a lot more popular there.

    So anyway...

    I took another look at my bicycle, and it seems I miscounted the number of teeth on the single-speed wheel currently mounted. It's a T16, not a T18 like I thought earlier. Which brings up an issue... I've heard on other threads that very small cogs (like T14-15) have a tendency to shatter. Would I be safe in mounting something that small on a SA hub?

    Right now, assuming I replace the default T20 with a T16, I would be getting 41.8 / 55.8 / 74.3 gear inches, if I'm plugging the right numbers into the gear ratio calculator. That sound like a good selection, or should I go with an even smaller rear cog?

    Also, found a thread regarding someone who needed to cut their axle short, with suggestions to use an angle grinder, bench grinder, or Dremel. I've got a Dremel, so I may try that. Only problem is that the cut may turn out messy-looking:
    http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-406909.html
    Last edited by Guppeh; 05-03-10 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Expanding my reply

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    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    The 110mm OLD Sturmey hub and the 130mm OLD Sturmey hub are the same hub, just with different length axles and 10mm + 10mm spacers/thicker nuts to create the difference.

    Use thinner nuts and/or move the spacers to outside the drop outs as required.

    tcs
    TCS, do you know where I can get these thinner nuts? I see Sturmey-Archer uses a special threading, and I can't just get these at the local hardware store apparently. Also, there is a different number of spacers on each side of the hub (1x 3.2mm dark-colored on sprocket side, 1x dark colored + 1x 4.8mm silver-colored on the other side), so taking all of them out will shift the wheel to one side?

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    Speed Uno
    Dawes Kingpin 2speed

  18. #18
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    So, I received the wheel this week, still waiting on a 14t cog from another seller.

    There are a set of "Terra Trike" stickers on the rim, which I removed since the caliper brakes would probably rub them off. The rim is designed to take Presta valve tubes. The shifter that comes with the wheel has a fairly short cable attached, so it looks like I'll need to replace it with something longer.
    PDR_0258..jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppeh View Post
    So, I received the wheel this week, still waiting on a 14t cog from another seller.

    There are a set of "Terra Trike" stickers on the rim, which I removed since the caliper brakes would probably rub them off. The rim is designed to take Presta valve tubes. The shifter that comes with the wheel has a fairly short cable attached, so it looks like I'll need to replace it with something longer.
    PDR_0258..jpg
    This is an interesting thread. Keep us informed how well it goes and don't forget the pictures. I want to know how many teeth on the cog and chain ring so I can put the number in Sheldon's calculator. Regardless, keep us informed!

  20. #20
    Senior Member Fibber's Avatar
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    The Utah Trikes price for a SA hub already laced to a 20" aluminum wheel is really quite good. Try and buy the pieces alone and you will see what I mean. I made a custom 16" wheel for my daughters bike two years back. A used SA hub off of e-bay, a 28 hole rim, and 28 custom cut spokes from my LBS, and the gift of a shifter from a fellow BF member. Topped $75 in parts, plus my labor to lace it up. But in the end, you'll be happy with the upgrade. She was!

  21. #21
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    An update--

    I took this to a local bike shop. The young guy who first took a look at it seemed to think it would be no problem, but there was an older guru-type fellow who was much more cautious. His evaluation was that a cold-set on such a short frame had a substantial chance of cracking some welds. The hub could be shortened down by taking out the spacers (and re-dishing the wheel to compensate for the asymmetry). However, without the spacers, there could be problems with the chainline and mechanical clearance that could halt the project, and he wouldn't know until partway into project, with associated shop time fees that he'd have to charge me for.

    Also, there would still be too much axle sticking out at the ends, and he warned against cutting it a hollow axle like this down. As for replacing the axle, he warned that if I wanted them to do it, it would be quite expensive due to the amount of time involved. His recommendation was that I could try putting it in myself, find out if it could be done, and then bring it back to fix up any details or problems I couldn't handle.

    I may try to get a replacement axle and put it in myself. If I mess up the hub, I'll write it off as a learning experience.

    Unfortunately, the only place I've found that carries the correct part (HSA-621) is in the UK:
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-S...A621-19340.htm
    While the axle doesn't cost much, the international shipping charges are pretty steep. Dynocoaster mentioned smartbikeparts.com, but it looks like the only axles they carry are for older models. Sturmey-Archer's tech support suggested I ask a local bike shop to order it from United Bicycle Supply. so I'll ask about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve View Post
    This is an interesting thread. Keep us informed how well it goes and don't forget the pictures. I want to know how many teeth on the cog and chain ring so I can put the number in Sheldon's calculator. Regardless, keep us informed!
    The chain ring is 44t, with a 16t on the back originally. The new wheel comes with a 20t, which I'm replacing with a 14t. (Edit: Originally was a 22t, I remembered wrong).
    Last edited by Guppeh; 05-17-10 at 07:43 PM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    why can't you could just take the spacers out from between the dropouts and reinstall them or an equivalent thickness of washers outside the dropouts? That way you don't have to cold set the frame, cut the axle down or replace the axle. The axle would project a bit more than normal on both sides, but I don't see that as much of an issue.

  23. #23
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    why can't you could just take the spacers out from between the dropouts and reinstall them or an equivalent thickness of washers outside the dropouts? That way you don't have to cold set the frame, cut the axle down or replace the axle. The axle would project a bit more than normal on both sides, but I don't see that as much of an issue.
    I've been thinking about doing that, although the bike shop guy said there may be problems with mechanical clearance and chainline, plus the wheel will have to be re-dished. The protruding will interfere with folding on one side, and leave the indicator chain on the other side sticking out more, possibly being more vulnerable to damage from snags and bumps.

  24. #24
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    I don't see why there would be a chainline issue or why you would need to 'redish' the wheel. AFAIK, wheels with IGH hubs aren't dished, they are symmetrical. You only need to dish wheels with freewheels, to account for the extra sprockets on the hub.

  25. #25
    Member Guppeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    I don't see why there would be a chainline issue or why you would need to 'redish' the wheel.
    I'm just repeating what the bike shop guy said, but I believe he means that there is an asymmetrical width of spacers on the two sides, with about 6.4mm more on the left than the right, so the wheel will not be centered between the forks once they're removed.

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