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  1. #1
    Senior Member snafu21's Avatar
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    The 2010 Devil's Thread: Hub Gear vs Dérailleur

    Annoying thread warning: Contains ill-manners, abuse, man-bonding, psychotic rants, limp-wristed sycophancy, character assassinations, sociopathic assaults on the entire intellect of the cycling world, vapid and lengthy off-topic essays, and little of any lasting value.

    And you thought it was just a bicycle thread.

    Let battle commence:
    Last edited by snafu21; 06-24-10 at 02:20 PM.
    - every mile of road has two miles of ditch -

  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    Best post EVER!

    I`ve had both a hub and Capreo derailleur on the same model bike - I greatly prefer the derailleur.

  3. #3
    Lonesome No More nigelme's Avatar
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    I have on my Moulton a dual contraption known as a '3x7' - which is a 3-speed Sram Hub gear with 7 cogs worth of durale...deur..de..the other sort. I can change on the move or stationary.

    It's heavy with more things to go wrong and only 3 speed in the hub surely isn't too much evil.

    I would say it's OK! but my vote goes to the Integrated Hub Gear because all the gubbins is hidden and I don't like seeing gubbins exposed and covered in dirt.

    I also have a Brompton with a 3x2 - Don't get me or anyone else started on what's wrong with that!

    Dérailleur: 2 -- Hub Gear: 1
    Last edited by nigelme; 06-01-10 at 02:16 AM. Reason: more info

  4. #4
    jur
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    I vote fixie.

    I don't have any so they must be good.

  5. #5
    Senior Member stevegor's Avatar
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    Horses for courses.

    Give me a Rohloff hub gear for touring, commuting or pootling

    But for serious fast pace riding..... NOTHING beats a Derailleur system, enough said.


    Derailleur: 3 Hub Gear: 1
    I'm lame,
    I'm sore,
    I'm stonkered.

  6. #6
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    I vote dual drive as I hate front mechs!

    There I got away with out spelling drailer,dylerer,drayleeer, derayleer,draelerer,dayrleer,(rear mech)................................daisy,drawleer,trawler,rear thingy,............................................................................................. ..........................daywaster.....
    Last edited by bhkyte; 06-01-10 at 04:05 AM.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8.

  7. #7
    Eschew Obfuscation SesameCrunch's Avatar
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    Snafu, you trouble-maker - stirring the pot again! Answering this is too hard! It's like asking me which of my girlfriends I love the most . How can I possibly choose?


    Well, the answer depends on the application, doesn't it? What kind of bike ride are you doing? Slow pootle to get ice cream, or 8 day solo touring, or racing with your testosterone-laden roadie group?

    My problem is - I love them all! I like my Duomatic (almost fixie-like), love my clunky Brompton 6 speed bodge, love my Schlumpf, love the Capreo. They're all fun and interesting. I guess that's why I have so many folders - too much love to give...

    OK, OK, if you really force me to choose. If you threaten to scratch the paint on my Moulton unless I answer. If you threaten to weld my Brompton so that it never folds again...I would grudgingly answer with the Capreo derayler system. There, now you have it. Now all my other folders won't love me anymore. Are you happy now?

  8. #8
    Eschew Obfuscation SesameCrunch's Avatar
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    Pssst! You can set this up as a poll to save you from having to count all the responses yourself...

  9. #9
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Ahhhhhh ... we might as well get this annual conversation over with ...

    I'll vote derailer -- ala Sheldon Brown -- since in most circumstances it is the better choice, IMO.

    Essentially, I think that derailer systems are very robust to the point that the increased robustness of an IGH is not worthwhile in most circumstances. Derailer drivetrains are also more available, cheaper, lighter, and very easy to fix.

    If you have a super small wheel -- roughly less than the 20" sizes -- then I would seriously consider an IGH. I would also consider an IGH for a multimode commuter.

    D: 4
    IGH: 2

  10. #10
    New usename ThorUSA brakemeister's Avatar
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    on a steel or alloy frame ?

  11. #11
    Senior Member Grishnak's Avatar
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    + 1 dérailleur,though my folders are all hub gear,and thankfully have lasted a long time.50,000miles on the shimano 7 speed,I bet it goes up the pictures now i have typed this ;-).

  12. #12
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    Hub +1

  13. #13
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    Hub
    Dahon Jifo
    Dawes Kingpin 2speed

  14. #14
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Obviously all of you who voted derailleur are a bunch of ignorant ninnies because derailleurs clearly aren't even worthy of consideration. The most likely cause of your confusion is that you perpetuate the sins of derailleur equipped bikes in all your cycling endeavours rather than allowing the glory of internal hubs to set you free. For example:
    1. Dished wheels built to accommodate derailleurs are weak and difficult to build. As a result they're typically way overbuilt and give the impression that the simple task of wheelbuilding is not suited to the average cyclist. Since the undished wheels of internal hubs are inherently stronger you have the choice of either dropping weight with fewer spokes and lighter rims or considerably increasing the wheel strength by maintaining the same specification as a dished derailleur wheel. If you think IGHs wheels are heavier then you can only blame yourself for not building them according to your preferences and if you don't think building a wheel is easy then you can only blame your derailleur cassette for making it difficult.
    2. On the topic of repair I would argue that a derailleur cannot be repaired by the average cyclist or in fact anyone at all because they simply aren't capable of working. What is so special about a derailleur system that it is considered functioning when cannot ever work after being scrubbed clean? How would you feel if you bought a new television which only worked when slathered in oil or covered in mud? Would you consider it functional or broken? At least IGHs can be fixed by someone as opposed to derailleurs which are in an eternal state of disrepair literally glued together with rotting carcases. IGH can be used as you need to use them, but deraileurs put the cart before the horse and need to be used according to their own fickle requirements.
    3. Also internal hubs allow one to independently tune drivetrain efficiency whereas the efficiency of derailleur setups depend heavily on factors which cannot be optimized. For example, it is well known that things like chainline and cog sizes are some of the most important parameters affecting drivetrain efficiency (particularly cog sizes for small wheels). However, since these are the very parameters which a derailleur manipulates in order to affect mechanical advantage, the very use of a derailleur makes it impossible to have an all else equal comparison with equal chainline, cog sizes, etc. Consequently, like the wheel advantages above, since most derailleur users are accustomed to this derailleur limitation they leave these advantages unclaimed and unappreciated when they ride IGHs.
    4. Expense: let's face it deraileurs require the entire gear system to be replaced every so often and cassettes aren't cheap. On the other hand IGHs need only have two sprockets replaced which represents a considerable savings.
    5. Fixing flats. I don't know how derailleur equipped bikes got a reputation for being easier to fix flats, but I think it's decidedly easier with an IGH. The tangled web of spring loaded chain that you need to wrestle the wheel away from with a derailleur is a real chore.
    6. Derailleurs take up more space all along the bike. This means there will be conflict whenever anything else tries to occupy that space like debris being kicked up, your clothing flapping in the breeze, or even just nice smooth aerodynamic air flow.

    A few other points of clarification are:
    -Shifting when stationary is exactly what you need for effectively moving on to the next thing while track standing. When riding in traffic the need to shift comes almost exclusively in response to sudden changes in conditions around you. In such cases predicting what gear you will need next or whether you will need to stop, track stand, or hammer is impossible and the planning required to effectively derail yourself into the right gear is futile and a dangerous distraction if you attempt it.
    -I think fixed gear or single speed votes should count for hub gear. After all a single speed is simply a hub gear with one gear and shares all the aforementioned advantages of other hub gears.

    Adding up Dynocoaster and me (and counting fixie for internal):
    derailleur 6 igh 6

  15. #15
    Pedaling fool ShinyBiker's Avatar
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    IGH

    Derailleurs make sense if you ride for long distances without stopping. However, for a city rider like me, IGH make perfect sense.

    I quoteth the late Sheldon Brown:

    Internal-gear hubs are more reliable than derailer systems, and require much less maintenance. The step-up ratios of their top gears make oversize chainrings unnecessary on small-wheel folding bicycles. Unlike derailers, internal hubs shift even at a stop, very nice in stop-and-go urban traffic.

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html

  16. #16
    I... Don't care. nekohime's Avatar
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    Hub. I like being able to shift down when I'm stopped. At the speeds I'm going who cares about decreased efficiency or increased weight or whatever? The 20lbs of groceries don't care. Also. I hate cleaning derailleurs. It is the epitome of suckity suck for me.
    Wanna join my charity folding bike ride? Sign-up here!
    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way :p

  17. #17
    Eschew Obfuscation SesameCrunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    Obviously all of you who voted derailleur are a bunch of ignorant ninnies because derailleurs clearly aren't even worthy of consideration. The most likely cause of your confusion is that you perpetuate the sins of derailleur equipped bikes in all your cycling endeavours rather than allowing the glory of internal hubs to set you free. For example:
    1. Dished wheels built to accommodate derailleurs are weak and difficult to build. As a result they're typically way overbuilt and give the impression that the simple task of wheelbuilding is not suited to the average cyclist. Since the undished wheels of internal hubs are inherently stronger you have the choice of either dropping weight with fewer spokes and lighter rims or considerably increasing the wheel strength by maintaining the same specification as a dished derailleur wheel. If you think IGHs wheels are heavier then you can only blame yourself for not building them according to your preferences and if you don't think building a wheel is easy then you can only blame your derailleur cassette for making it difficult.
    2. On the topic of repair I would argue that a derailleur cannot be repaired by the average cyclist or in fact anyone at all because they simply aren't capable of working. What is so special about a derailleur system that it is considered functioning when cannot ever work after being scrubbed clean? How would you feel if you bought a new television which only worked when slathered in oil or covered in mud? Would you consider it functional or broken? At least IGHs can be fixed by someone as opposed to derailleurs which are in an eternal state of disrepair literally glued together with rotting carcases. IGH can be used as you need to use them, but deraileurs put the cart before the horse and need to be used according to their own fickle requirements.
    3. Also internal hubs allow one to independently tune drivetrain efficiency whereas the efficiency of derailleur setups depend heavily on factors which cannot be optimized. For example, it is well known that things like chainline and cog sizes are some of the most important parameters affecting drivetrain efficiency (particularly cog sizes for small wheels). However, since these are the very parameters which a derailleur manipulates in order to affect mechanical advantage, the very use of a derailleur makes it impossible to have an all else equal comparison with equal chainline, cog sizes, etc. Consequently, like the wheel advantages above, since most derailleur users are accustomed to this derailleur limitation they leave these advantages unclaimed and unappreciated when they ride IGHs.
    4. Expense: let's face it deraileurs require the entire gear system to be replaced every so often and cassettes aren't cheap. On the other hand IGHs need only have two sprockets replaced which represents a considerable savings.
    5. Fixing flats. I don't know how derailleur equipped bikes got a reputation for being easier to fix flats, but I think it's decidedly easier with an IGH. The tangled web of spring loaded chain that you need to wrestle the wheel away from with a derailleur is a real chore.
    6. Derailleurs take up more space all along the bike. This means there will be conflict whenever anything else tries to occupy that space like debris being kicked up, your clothing flapping in the breeze, or even just nice smooth aerodynamic air flow.

    A few other points of clarification are:
    -Shifting when stationary is exactly what you need for effectively moving on to the next thing while track standing. When riding in traffic the need to shift comes almost exclusively in response to sudden changes in conditions around you. In such cases predicting what gear you will need next or whether you will need to stop, track stand, or hammer is impossible and the planning required to effectively derail yourself into the right gear is futile and a dangerous distraction if you attempt it.
    -I think fixed gear or single speed votes should count for hub gear. After all a single speed is simply a hub gear with one gear and shares all the aforementioned advantages of other hub gears.

    Adding up Dynocoaster and me (and counting fixie for internal):
    derailleur 6 igh 6

    Wow, are you always this inhibited?

  18. #18
    Eschew Obfuscation SesameCrunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekohime View Post
    Hub. I like being able to shift down when I'm stopped. At the speeds I'm going who cares about decreased efficiency or increased weight or whatever? The 20lbs of groceries don't care. Also. I hate cleaning derailleurs. It is the epitome of suckity suck for me.
    Now, this here is a compelling argument!

  19. #19
    I... Don't care. nekohime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SesameCrunch View Post

    Now, this here is a compelling argument!
    Seriously, I think this is one of the big reasons why my mixte with derailleur system sits in the garage, being all pretty. I cannot stand to get the drivetrain dirty and decreasing the prettiness of this bike, and it's too much of a pain to clean off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way :p

  20. #20
    Senior Member stevegor's Avatar
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    Wow, people are actually passionate about hub gears, they are catching up in this vote.

    I know one of my plethora of multiple personalities likes them, but I won't let him vote
    ...... the other ten vote for DERAILLEUR.
    I'm lame,
    I'm sore,
    I'm stonkered.

  21. #21
    I... Don't care. nekohime's Avatar
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    Oh, also, I happily admit to being Satan.
    Wanna join my charity folding bike ride? Sign-up here!
    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way :p

  22. #22
    AEO
    AEO is offline
    Senior Member AEO's Avatar
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    I like drop bars.
    that pretty much forces me to use derailer systems.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  23. #23
    The Legitimiser Sammyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    I like drop bars.
    that pretty much forces me to use derailer systems.
    Nope!



    Other ways of mounting also exist (there's a thing that screws into the end of your drop bars, there's a regular bar end shifter, you can mount a bar-end extension on the stem, you could mount it on one of those extra stand-off bars people mount their endless GPSes and speedos on).

  24. #24
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Dual drive=1. Sitting on the fence because I like the sensation !
    Please register my vote snafu.
    Thankyou.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    1. Dished wheels built to accommodate derailleurs are weak and difficult to build.
    And no shop knows how to build them! Every shop, on the other hand, can build hub gears without a problem.

    2. On the topic of repair I would argue that a derailleur cannot be repaired by the average cyclist or in fact anyone at all because they simply aren't capable of working.
    Absolutely. People with derailleurs are actually not moving at all. It's ALL A HOAX. "These aren't the derailleurs you're looking for."

    3. Also internal hubs allow one to independently tune drivetrain efficiency whereas the efficiency of derailleur setups depend heavily on factors which cannot be optimized.
    Very true. Hubs let you tune your efficiency to all sorts of different levels, all of which are less efficient than the standard non-tunable one for derailleurs!

    4. Expense: let's face it deraileurs require the entire gear system to be replaced every so often and cassettes aren't cheap. On the other hand IGHs need only have two sprockets replaced which represents a considerable savings.
    A bargain! For example: for the cost of one Rohlhoff Speedhub 500/1 XC, you can buy a mere 31 SRAM PG-970 cassettes. After you've exhausted them, you'll be sorry you didn't buy that Speedhub.

    5. Fixing flats. I don't know how derailleur equipped bikes got a reputation for being easier to fix flats, but I think it's decidedly easier with an IGH. The tangled web of spring loaded chain that you need to wrestle the wheel away from with a derailleur is a real chore.
    Plus quick-release axles are overrated. Give me a good wrench any day.

    6. Derailleurs take up more space all along the bike. This means there will be conflict whenever anything else tries to occupy that space like debris being kicked up, your clothing flapping in the breeze, or even just nice smooth aerodynamic air flow.
    Plus the derailleur takes up the valuable space I need to install my chain tensioner.

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