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  1. #1
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    R20 Owners Group Buy... and some total nerd-dom.

    Was talking to my partner and frame builder here about R20's and how nice it would be to have a nice aftermarket fork with an adequate steerer length, modern 100mm spacing, bosses for cantis / v brakes, and eyelets and mounts to handle fenders, racks and low riders.

    No-one makes one like this... yet.

    Should have the beta version next month and will be having it built to retain the same rake / trail as the stock fork.

    Since my bike will be in getting some other frame work done we will be able to test and fine tune the fork and make adjustments in the frame shop to really dial it in and will also test it with a front load to see how it performs.

    He was not aware these little folders had such a passionate following and said that I would see if any other Twenty owners would be interested in acquiring one of these forks as if you design and build one... you could then build twenty and they might also appeal to other folder riders who want a little more from their forks.

    But you don't want to build twenty forks and not be able to give them a home.

    Cost will of course be a little more than a Sun EZ fork (2x) but can tell you that the man builds beautiful forks with wonderful ride qualities with a classic look to match the bike... thinking they will have sloping fork crowns and should have Reynold's forged dropouts to keep things British.

    The Sun EZ is a adequate replacement but was not made to match the Twenty's geometry and it's a bulky straight legged thing that does not offer much damping quality and would like a touring quality fork that would match up well with narrower higher performance 100 psi tyres.

    Anyways... thought I'd throw this out there and see who might be interested in something like this.

    This is a non commercial offer (on my end) and I will just facilitate for anyone who is interested.

    Wait til you see my new stem...

  2. #2
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    so approximately how much will one of these babies cost?

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    Senior Member Rob_E's Avatar
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    Sounds intriguing. I'll be curious to see what you come up with. But it will be a hard pill to swallow price-wise for a cheapskate like me, but the idea of a fork made for the twenty with modern spacing is really appealing. For me, part of the appeal of the twenty was that was a decent folder that I could get much cheaper than a modern, quality folder. But I guess we all know that's the justification, not the reality, and that once I've replaced every outdated part of that bike and modded it to my satisfaction, it will have more invested in it than something I picked up brand new.

    Still, I'm currently trying to figure out if I can get away with the cheap, Pyramid fork + extender or if I'm willing to go whole hog on the recumbent fork. Or if there's any way yet that I can make the original fork do the job. Cheaper is better right now.

    But I do look forward to seeing your creation. I think it's a great idea if it can be made to work out economically. When you spend a lot of time on this forum, it seems like everyone in the world must have a twenty they're trying to upgrade/bring back to life, but the reality is that there's not that many of us compared to owners of just about any modern bike. Still, it would be nice... Good luck.

    What are your plans for the headset? Threaded? Threadless? Taking advantage of the original quick-release clamp? Using a threading that no one will have parts for, just for authenticity's sake.

  4. #4
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    so approximately how much will one of these babies cost?
    Forks like this are usually $140.00 with powder coated finishes and chroming adds $25.00... would hope that if there is decent interest that the price might be brought down to $120.00 or even a little less and the shipping should not be excessive for NA locations.

    Have ridden on Arvon forks and appreciate his dedication and attention to detail in making a solid and well tuned fork and these are as nice as any I have ridden.

    If you are running fatties on a Twenty you could get by with the stock fork or a Sun as the lower psi tyres provide more than enough suspension and vibration damping but when you start using high psi tyres the ride suffers as they were not designed for this type of tyre.

    I will be helping to design and build the low rider rack for the new fork... I am looking forward to firing up the torch on these and am also looking at a custom fixed stem since I rarely fold up my bike... I have a few of these here in shorter lengths that I should shoot pictures of.

  5. #5
    AEO
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    this is what the ebay sun recumbent fork looks btw.
    I drilled out the back for calipers so I can run 451, but it's for 406mm wheels.

    It doesn't really match and looks like what you'd find on newer MTB instead of older bikes like the R20.
    Any options for a disc brake?

    Last edited by AEO; 06-18-10 at 02:39 PM.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  6. #6
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Wonder how much are repro Twenty frame would cost... I bet there would be a helluva market for them!

    Aaron
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  7. #7
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
    Wonder how much are repro Twenty frame would cost... I bet there would be a helluva market for them!

    Aaron
    If the quality of the Raleigh reissue Chopper frames and the 7005 Dahon frames are any indication, they just wouldn't make 'em like they used to....

  8. #8
    Senior Member stevegor's Avatar
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    I have a frame builder here in Oz that could build a high quality R20 type frame in steel, Alu or carbon.... and with "NORMAL" threading, wider rear spacing, better brakes, custom top bar length fitting, bidon cages, pannier and fender bosses... etc etc

    When I get out of this mature age student, part time employed gig and start making money again I might have a chat to him about building me one.

    His road and track racing bikes are of the highest quality, so this R20 would be superb.
    I'm lame,
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  9. #9
    Senior Member JosephLMonti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
    Wonder how much are repro Twenty frame would cost... I bet there would be a helluva market for them!

    Aaron
    I totally agree. A steel-framed replica of the original R20, but with modern bb, hub and headset configuration would command a lot of interest. Companies like Rivendell currently build old school touring bikes with some modern elements, so why not the R20?

  10. #10
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JosephLMonti View Post
    I totally agree. A steel-framed replica of the original R20, but with modern bb, hub and headset configuration would command a lot of interest. Companies like Rivendell currently build old school touring bikes with some modern elements, so why not the R20?
    That is my take on it too. Most of the modern folders fall short of the R10's simplicity. A repro frame using off the shelf parts that are readily available and will remain available would be a very viable.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

    ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

    "Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
    RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
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    Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
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  11. #11
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevegor View Post
    I have a frame builder here in Oz that could build a high quality R20 type frame in steel, Alu or carbon.... and with "NORMAL" threading, wider rear spacing, better brakes, custom top bar length fitting, bidon cages, pannier and fender bosses... etc etc

    When I get out of this mature age student, part time employed gig and start making money again I might have a chat to him about building me one.

    His road and track racing bikes are of the highest quality, so this R20 would be superb.
    Sounds like you have been wandering through my head...

    Figure that after I get all the little modifications done to my Twenty I will have a pretty good template to work from as it already has wider dropout spacing, a modern bb, and will have a modern fork and custom stem and will be going with the threaded headset to go with the custom stem.

    I don't fold my Twenty very often and appreciate it's other virtues like it's nice ride quality and snappy handling.

    I like hearing all these ideas as they become good discussion material when we sit down and discuss our building plans and might order up a replacement stem in a non threaded version to do some ride testing until we get the new fork built.

    Am looking to spend a good part of July and August in the frame building shop so who knows what might come out of that... thinking it would be pretty cool to make an S&S coupled version of the Twenty to make it easily packable.

  12. #12
    AEO
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    you know, since the frame has a front section and rear section, you should be able to just make a new front end for 1-1/8 steerer forks.
    that should give a beefier steerer tube and it should be no problem to load the fork with disc brakes, mount a rack to the head tube, which aids in steering, or give a longer steerer tube for people who want their bars higher without flimsy adaptors or extensions.

    as much as I like balancing out heavy loads to both front and rear, the steering becomes a bit odd when the load is attached to the fork.
    Dahon has that strange headtube mount contraption that suspends the load off the fork and onto the frame. maybe something similar would work?

    since the wheels are already small, making the load sit a bit higher isn't too big a deal and it gives more cornering clearance.
    Last edited by AEO; 06-21-10 at 01:51 PM.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  13. #13
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    this is what the ebay sun recumbent fork looks btw.
    I drilled out the back for calipers so I can run 451, but it's for 406mm wheels.

    It doesn't really match and looks like what you'd find on newer MTB instead of older bikes like the R20.
    Any options for a disc brake?

    Looks like the Sun fork will reduce the trail and believe Sheldon Brown observed this when he used a BMX fork as a replacement and that the ride quality with high psi tyres was fairly harsh and twitchy.

    Will have to see about a disc option as this has great appeal to many folks... a 6 inch disc on a 20 inch wheel would look insane.

  14. #14
    AEO
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    yeah, the trail on the sun recumbent fork is about 1cm further back than the stock fork.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  15. #15
    jur
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    Remember I straightened out my R20's fork which improved handling quite a bit. I could easily ride no-hands afterwards. So there's no reason to stick to rake religiously.
    My folding bike photo essays www.dekter.net/

  16. #16
    my nice bike is at home kraftwerk's Avatar
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    I agree with Jur, the fork rake could stand to be lessened, in other words: less rake. That much rake is old fashioned,
    also 451 wheels with a low profile caliper brake. A thread-less-one-inch fork would be amazing. Keep us posted.
    i am, sure you can find 20 folding 20 fanatics who would go for it.

    And yes! Why stop at the fork? Reproduce the whole bike, Make mine a titanium one please!
    Must have a 1 1/8th head tube, modern BB shell, Carbon fork (maybe)
    S &S couplings sound okay too. I have often dreamed of this. It is a good design.
    Everyone is always trying to reinvent the folding bike, while
    R 20's were good enough the first time around! Better than most new ones,
    They dismantle neatly and re-assemble well for the suit case set.
    They just need to be lighter, much much lighter..


    jt
    Last edited by kraftwerk; 06-21-10 at 10:15 PM.

  17. #17
    AEO
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    oh, and there's definitely no need to keep the welded or brazed chain-guard mounts and that protrusion at the bottom of the BB, kickstand mount.

    would be better to just have a standard kickstand plate for bolt on kickstands.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  18. #18
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftwerk View Post
    I agree with Jur, the fork rake could stand to be lessened, in other words: less rake. That much rake is old fashioned,
    also 451 wheels with a low profile caliper brake. A thread-less-one-inch fork would be amazing. Keep us posted.
    i am, sure you can find 20 folding 20 fanatics who would go for it.

    And yes! Why stop at the fork? Reproduce the whole bike, Make mine a titanium one please!
    Must have a 1 1/8th head tube, modern BB shell, Carbon fork (maybe)
    Make mine a titanium one please! S &S couplings sound okay too. I have often dreamed of this. It is a good design.
    Everyone is always trying to reinvent the folding bike, while
    R 20's were good enough the first time around! Better than most new ones,
    They dismantle neatly and re-assemble well for the suit case set.
    They just need to be lighter, much much lighter..

    jt
    It is an old fashioned frame with very slack angles and a lot of rake... the handling is impacted more by the stock headset and more trail offsets the quicker handling you get with the smaller wheels. This is what makes the 20 such a nice ride as many modern folders are not as they have even smaller wheels and steeper frame angles and less trail which makes them twitchy as heck.

    Lighter materials and a better parts spec might be all that is needed and will be starting from there and then fine tuning things.

    One could of course just go and order a Bike Friday but where is the fun in that ?

  19. #19
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    I like the bolt style hinge, it work for me and my needs, plus the bolt size is available at any hardware store in the US.

    I like the idea of a kickstand plate versus the OEM one, chainguard tab is not necessary with current clamp on hardware. I would like to see a QR on the handle bars to allow them to rotate downward. I am not sure I would like the S&S couplers, kind of on the pricey side. I would like to see a brand new version of the Twenty ready to roll for ~$400-450usd which is about what a Twenty sold for new in 1972 based on 2009 dollars. What would be neat would be the possibility of semi custom upgrades all based on the same frame...might be time to learn how to braze/weld frames.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

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  20. #20
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    So... how about a titanium frame, S&S couplers, carbon fork, 11 speed Alfine drive, and disc brakes ?


  21. #21
    my nice bike is at home kraftwerk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    So... how about a titanium frame, S&S couplers, carbon fork, 11 speed Alfine drive, and disc brakes ?

    Yes, why not? There could be two versions a lightweight expensive model and then classic, though inproved, steel with all the original quirks, minus that plastic headset bushing, (that thing should have never left the drawing board)
    Who owns the R 20 patent? Heck, just make a few boot leg frames and call it a day.

  22. #22
    AEO
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    I think all that weight is in the frame hinge.
    they're like 3/8" thick steel plates welded onto the tubing.

    replaceable derailer hanger is a must, IMO for the titanium version.
    horizontal dropouts for the rear would be a must too.

    I like the idea of keeping the same frame hinge design and not having to buy specialized nuts and bolts to replace lost ones.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  23. #23
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    That nylon bushing does it's job... in their stock form they are a bike nearly anyone can ride with complete confidence.

    I have upgraded a number of 20's with proper headsets and the steering is much quicker and takes a little getting used to, especially when you are also running drop bars and ride in a more aggressive position... but the 20 will forgive you for things other bikes won't and is very recoverable when you push it beyond it's limits.

    Custom frames and forks tend to run upward of $1000.00 while a mass produced version would be significantly cheaper but I will ask how much it would cost to replicate the Twenty with better quality tubes and standardized parts.

  24. #24
    AEO
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    I would be satisfied with this sort of layout...

    front end: 1" standard and would allow backwards compatibility with the original R20.

    fork:
    1" steerer
    disc mount tab
    canti bosses
    flat/recessed crown eyelet for modern callipers with recessed nuts
    bosses for dynohub cable and disc brake cable/hose
    100mm OLD

    rear end:
    canti bosses
    flat/recessed stay eyelet for modern callipers with recessed nuts
    horizontal dropouts
    replaceable RD hanger or no-RD plate for IGH.
    135mm OLD
    68mm BB
    at least 4 sets of eyelets at the dropouts. preferably M6 size, since they're tougher.
    plate for bolt on kickstands

    I don't think it's possible to have horizontal dropouts and disc brakes. The only bike I've seen that works around this is the Salsa Ala Carte.
    the only question I would have is how high you can extend the steerer past the head tube without worrying of it buckling.

    but if it's possible, I'd like 1-1/8" steerer, because it doesn't twist as much and is simply stronger all around as well as open up the possibility for aluminum or carbon steerers. And also if possible a lugguage mount for the headtube, like seen here: http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/accessories/baskets.htm

    If anyone ever builds a modern R20 frame, you might want to give it a slightly slacker HTA and STA since many modern forks have less rake.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  25. #25
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    I think all that weight is in the frame hinge.
    they're like 3/8" thick steel plates welded onto the tubing.

    replaceable derailer hanger is a must, IMO for the titanium version.
    horizontal dropouts for the rear would be a must too.

    I like the idea of keeping the same frame hinge design and not having to buy specialized nuts and bolts to replace lost ones.
    I think the frame and fork weighs 9 pounds... the main tube is extra strong as it will support the bike on it's own without the lower braces.

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