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Thread: Rohloff Killer!

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    Rohloff Killer!

    http://www.pinion.eu/en/produkt.html

    Was featured at Eurobike 2010.

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    New usename ThorUSA brakemeister's Avatar
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    how about 6 lbs and you need a special frame of course, price higher than Rohloff
    not bashing here ... but...

    :-)
    thor

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    jur
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    In the current cycling community mindset, no. You don't buy a pinion. You buy a pinion and a frame. No upgrading a current frame. No sending to overseas customers such as with buying a hub.
    My folding bike photo essays www.dekter.net/

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    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Germans make things at home , they don't let their jobs go overseas.

    But their target market is Mountain bikers and Adventure tourists on mountain bikes

    sell better in countrys that have legally mandated paid summer holidays .

    Red Baiting killed the paid holiday and health care in the States.
    Last edited by fietsbob; 09-09-10 at 04:07 PM.

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    Senior Member Foldable Two's Avatar
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    Americans are better and stronger people because they haven't been made "soft" by too much PAID vacation. In addition, NOT getting health-care for every little medical abnormality, and having a little extra body fat, insures our immunity to many of the diseases that kill-off lesser societies!

    I'm personally looking forward to a similar product with even more gears (and in more colors) that will be cheaper (because it was made in a place with NO PAID vacation).

    USA Kool Aid: Only $.10 a glass.

    Lou
    Last edited by Foldable Two; 09-09-10 at 06:56 PM.

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    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    The Rohloff fits virtually any bike frame...look at the number actually in the wild...something like 100,000+. I've got 2 Rohloffs and I rarely if ever run into another Rohloff owner. Now imagine the Rohloff cost more and needed a very specific frame...how many do you think will be sold? Not many.

    If you really want to point to a Rohloff killer I think the Alfine 11 will be a much bigger threat and if Shimano keeps going and produces an Alfine 14 for under $700 in the next couple years I think Rohloff will have some real problems.

    Not that I think even a 14 speed Alfine is really the equivalent of the Rohloff, but for many people who would otherwise buy a Rohloff it's probably good enough and that may cut away enough revenue to make Rohloff not a viable concern.
    safe riding - Vik
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    Senior Member JulianEdgar's Avatar
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    Why are people so negative? Surely any cycling innovation - or potential innovation - is to be encouraged and welcomed?
    I know, it's a trike...

    julianedgar.com

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    jur
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    If it could be retrofitted I would be fine with it - the problem I foresee is that because it needs a dedicated frame, it will have limited sales potential. If they could develop a version for plain old bike frames, then bring it on.
    My folding bike photo essays www.dekter.net/

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    jur
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    I am leery of statements like 'unbelievably efficient'... why not quote the actual figures? Is it efficient compared to derailers, other geared hubs, truck gear boxes or what?? When the NuVinci came out I looked but never found figures either.
    My folding bike photo essays www.dekter.net/

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    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
    Why are people so negative? Surely any cycling innovation - or potential innovation - is to be encouraged and welcomed?
    I can't see the logic in being a cheerleader for any new innovation that somebody comes up with simply because it's new. If an idea makes sense and has a useful application it should be able to survive a critical appraisal on its merits. If not the folks behind it can benefit more from rational criticism that may lead to positive change rather than having loads of people tell them how rad their device is and then find themselves disappointed when the market in general doesn't actually want to buy any.
    safe riding - Vik
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    Vik, I was merely parroting another headline from the blogosphere. I don't really think its a Rohloff killer. Personally, I don't see much of an application for Nuvinci, Pinions and Rohloffs unless one is touring, has a cargo bike or a recumbent. I know it would be waste of money for me especially given my love for singlespeeds LOL.

    Like most things in life, it comes down to price and these high end transmissions will always sell less than cheaper gear alternatives. Lets face it, for most people, derailleurs are perfectly adequate at their price point. Those who are odd may prefer IGHs. I think most bikes are too complex for the average user already.

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    The Metropolis, UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by vik View Post
    The Rohloff fits virtually any bike frame...look at the number actually in the wild...something like 100,000+. I've got 2 Rohloffs and I rarely if ever run into another Rohloff owner. Now imagine the Rohloff cost more and needed a very specific frame...how many do you think will be sold? Not many.

    If you really want to point to a Rohloff killer I think the Alfine 11 will be a much bigger threat and if Shimano keeps going and produces an Alfine 14 for under $700 in the next couple years I think Rohloff will have some real problems.

    Not that I think even a 14 speed Alfine is really the equivalent of the Rohloff, but for many people who would otherwise buy a Rohloff it's probably good enough and that may cut away enough revenue to make Rohloff not a viable concern.
    +1 Bang on.

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    The Metropolis, UK
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    @ Vik

    Do you think the SRAM dual drive 27 speed competes with the Rohloff as a good wide range gearing system on folders?

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    Senior Member JulianEdgar's Avatar
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    I can't see the logic in being a cheerleader for any new innovation that somebody comes up with simply because it's new. If an idea makes sense and has a useful application it should be able to survive a critical appraisal on its merits. If not the folks behind it can benefit more from rational criticism that may lead to positive change rather than having loads of people tell them how rad their device is and then find themselves disappointed when the market in general doesn't actually want to buy any.
    That would perhaps make more sense if every single innovation in cycle design hadn't been initially greeted by a bunch of people all saying how hopeless it was - from deraillueurs to small wheeled bikes to suspension to pnuematic tyres.

    It pays no dividends to be negative about innovation. If it's no good it won't last - but no invention is helped by widespread , knee-jerk denigration.
    I know, it's a trike...

    julianedgar.com

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    The Metropolis, UK
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    Americans are better and stronger people because they haven't been made "soft" by too much PAID vacation. In addition, NOT getting health-care for every little medical abnormality, and having a little extra body fat, insures our immunity to many of the diseases that kill-off lesser societies!
    WTF?

    Is that why you have more shrinks per head of population than most 'lesser societies' to help you cope with work-related stress?

    What about your increasing obesity? I presume this is a well referenced article:

    Obesity in the United States has been increasingly cited as a major health issue in recent decades. While many industrialized countries have experienced similar increases, obesity rates in the United States are among the highest in the world with as of 2007 74.1 % of the adults being overweight or obese.[2]
    Estimates of the number of obese American adults have been steadily expanding, from 19.4% in 1997, 24.5% in 2004[3] to 26.6% in 2007.[4]

    I can assure you there are many 'lesser societies' with better life expectancy and tougher people, especially the Mediterranean and Asian regions.

    Apologies to my good American friends but I cannot abide this absurd and jingoistic crap which I know most of you don't subscribe to. I have 6 weeks paid leave a year but I can assure you I'm as 'tough' as anyone with 2 lousy weeks vacation. How many people strive in the US to pay proper health insurance and access to equitable treatment from the poorer classes?

    Stick to folding bikes. If you want to be proud of Bike Fridays & Swifts that's more than OK but keep your other flawed and eogcentric views to yourself Foldabletwo!

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    Senior Member Folding-Bikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foldable Two View Post
    Americans are better and stronger people because they haven't been made "soft" by too much PAID vacation. In addition, NOT getting health-care for every little medical abnormality, and having a little extra body fat, insures our immunity to many of the diseases that kill-off lesser societies!

    I'm personally looking forward to a similar product with even more gears (and in more colors) that will be cheaper (because it was made in a place with NO PAID vacation).

    USA Kool Aid: Only $.10 a glass.

    Lou
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/m...-European.html

    +1 on sticking to folding bikes
    www.folding-bikes.com
    Pacific Folding bikes on Facebook

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    The Metropolis, UK
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    And I really admire the Germans. They reunited a economically depressed region without falling apart. They have better holidays and a social system than many countries and they make some wonderful bike components and some pretty decent input even into folding bikes. The Birdy was born from both German and Taiwanese ingenuity. I would have nothing on my Brompton other than Schmidt (son) and Busch & Muller and what still betters the Rolhoff?

    The Germans are well tough!

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    The Metropolis, UK
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    Ahh I forgot the indomitable Scandinavians and Northern Europeans. Thanks FB! :-D

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    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulleady View Post
    @ Vik

    Do you think the SRAM dual drive 27 speed competes with the Rohloff as a good wide range gearing system on folders?
    Someone give me a Rohloff and I will gladly compair!
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  20. #20
    New usename ThorUSA brakemeister's Avatar
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    I keep myself out of the Euro?America discussion..... lol
    I do want to respond to Julian though ....
    a lot of negativity is not really a state of mind but a reasonable wisdom or dose of reality. I applaud all the transmissions I saw at Eurobike and even all the quirky inventions which obviusly will not work. I am all for it...
    HOWEVER ....
    If somebody comes up with marketing hype and no real facts .... if you can take product X out of the test and replace it with electric toothbrush and the text still makes sense ( somewhat ) than I have the right as more or less eductated bike rider to have my opinion.

    I am eager to learn ..... therefore if my opion is flawed I am the first to apologize and go with it ... but in the meantime I might have doubts. The bicycle has been around more than 100 years and has seen a lot of inventions come and go ... some of the better ones have stuck around . And without a doubt a bicycle of today is a very fine optimized machine .... BUT a lot of things look very similar than 100 years ago as well.... there are reasons for this
    Thor

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    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
    That would perhaps make more sense if every single innovation in cycle design hadn't been initially greeted by a bunch of people all saying how hopeless it was - from deraillueurs to small wheeled bikes to suspension to pnuematic tyres.

    It pays no dividends to be negative about innovation. If it's no good it won't last - but no invention is helped by widespread , knee-jerk denigration.
    I see so you are suggesting an analysis of the pros/cons of the system relative to other available options is a knee-jerk denigration of the product? Personally I am an early adopter of technology that I think provides a useful function. I bought one of the first generation Tikits. I bought the first generation Hammerschmidt from SRAM. I had a computer at home back when that was crazy talk. You make a good product I can see a rationale for and I'll give you my money to support you and then blog about it so other people get the msg. But, I certainly feel that talking about products that are offered for sale and discussing their merits relative to other options that solve the same or similar problems is not only appropriate, but helpful to the manufacturer. It can guide their product development and let them tune their marketing campaign if certain elements of their design are not being fully understood.
    safe riding - Vik
    VikApproved

  22. #22
    cyclopath vik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulleady View Post
    @ Vik

    Do you think the SRAM dual drive 27 speed competes with the Rohloff as a good wide range gearing system on folders?
    I've used the previous 3 x 7 system on a recumbent, but haven't used the Dual drive. I don't think it compares to a Rohloff since it has many of the problems of a derailleur drivetrain plus the losses due to the planetary gears in the IGH. However, it seems to work well enough that if the cost is considerably less than it would merit attention...I don't know what they cost. If the cost starts approaching Rohloff territory I would stick with a Rohloff. If you can get the DD for 30% of the cost of a Rohloff its probably worth it.

    The Rohloff will still be working after 100,000kms...probably after 200,000kms so the operating cost is low if you ride enough kms.

    If the Shimano Alfine 11 turns out to be a good IGH I think I would use it instead of the DD or Rohloff since it provides most of the benefits at less than 50% of the cost.
    safe riding - Vik
    VikApproved

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    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    I for one welcome our new IGH overlords.

    I concur it is unlikely to present a serious challenge to Rohloff, unless the Pinion truly does offer a major advantage over the Speedhub. However, I have little doubt that when the Speedhub first came out, some people were certain it would bomb due to high price and minimal advantages over the existing IGH's.

    The Pinion could be very beneficial for touring, since it will be much easier to work on the rear wheel, and relocating the weight of the hub to the BB might improve handling. I'm not sure if folders will end up as the ideal application though.

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    New usename ThorUSA brakemeister's Avatar
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    funny fact is that the pinion people were seen going to lunch with the Rohloffs and drinking beer and having a good time ....

    so much for Rohlloff killer

    the dualdrive is very reliable despite mixing the bad and the good from both worlds. its roughly 30 to 40 % of a Rohloff if I remember
    its absolutely great for folders as the cables are uncomplicated and chainline problems are no existing and the weight is tolerable and and and ......

    thor

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    I use SRAM dual drive 24 speed everyday and quite happy with it (Speed TR). Definite advantage is the fact you can change gear while stopped. Disadvantage is too similar to using dérailleur system. I believe DD is about 30% or less of the cost of Rohloff. Right around the price of current nexus 8 is my guess.
    Excellent gear range, convenience, etc.
    One thing I feel missing is the overlap of gearing make me having to switch both side at same time for things like mid+8 to high+6 to keep my cadence. (which definitely is easier to do than on front/rear dérailleur system) I would imagine rohloff or alfine 11 speed would be just... up... and forget it.
    In short, very happy with what I have based on cost/performance. Daydreaming about tikit with 11 alfine or rohloff. (waiting to see how 11 alfine is going to turn out to be).

    Oh and back on topic. That system looks very interesting. If they can make it more universal (not requiring weird bottom bracket) and cut down on weight a little, I can see it becoming valid option. I mean, it replaces some weight of crankcase, hub or dérailleur so probably 1.5lbs to 2lbs reduction would be excellent. I also like the idea about center of weight of bike being in middle. Would be interesting if they can figure out a way to make it work on regular bottom :")


    Quote Originally Posted by vik View Post
    I've used the previous 3 x 7 system on a recumbent, but haven't used the Dual drive. I don't think it compares to a Rohloff since it has many of the problems of a derailleur drivetrain plus the losses due to the planetary gears in the IGH. However, it seems to work well enough that if the cost is considerably less than it would merit attention...I don't know what they cost. If the cost starts approaching Rohloff territory I would stick with a Rohloff. If you can get the DD for 30% of the cost of a Rohloff its probably worth it.

    The Rohloff will still be working after 100,000kms...probably after 200,000kms so the operating cost is low if you ride enough kms.

    If the Shimano Alfine 11 turns out to be a good IGH I think I would use it instead of the DD or Rohloff since it provides most of the benefits at less than 50% of the cost.
    Last edited by bored117; 09-10-10 at 09:42 AM.

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