Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Folding Bikes Discuss the unique features and issues of folding bikes. Also a great place to learn what folding bike will work best for your needs.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-09-10, 03:19 PM   #1
puppypilgrim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Bikes: Brodie Force w/ Xtracycle, Dahon Helios, Merida Folding, Pacific Carryme, Softride Classic
Posts: 791
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rohloff Killer!

http://www.pinion.eu/en/produkt.html

Was featured at Eurobike 2010.
puppypilgrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 03:50 PM   #2
brakemeister 
New usename ThorUSA
 
brakemeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Southern Illinois USA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
how about 6 lbs and you need a special frame of course, price higher than Rohloff
not bashing here ... but...

:-)
thor
__________________
www.thorusa.com
Dahon : Freedom Unfolds
Tern : all about the ride
brakemeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 03:58 PM   #3
jur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 6,857
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
In the current cycling community mindset, no. You don't buy a pinion. You buy a pinion and a frame. No upgrading a current frame. No sending to overseas customers such as with buying a hub.
jur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 04:02 PM   #4
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 7
Posts: 20,416
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Germans make things at home , they don't let their jobs go overseas.

But their target market is Mountain bikers and Adventure tourists on mountain bikes

sell better in countrys that have legally mandated paid summer holidays .

Red Baiting killed the paid holiday and health care in the States.

Last edited by fietsbob; 09-09-10 at 04:07 PM.
fietsbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 06:51 PM   #5
Foldable Two
Senior Member
 
Foldable Two's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vancouver, Washington and Ocean Shores, Washington, USA
Bikes: 2 - 2007 Custom Bike Fridays, 2 - 2009 Bike Friday Pocket 8's, Gravity 29'er SS, 2 - 8-spd Windsor City Bikes, 1973 Raleigh 20 & a 1964 Schwinn Tiger
Posts: 1,319
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Americans are better and stronger people because they haven't been made "soft" by too much PAID vacation. In addition, NOT getting health-care for every little medical abnormality, and having a little extra body fat, insures our immunity to many of the diseases that kill-off lesser societies!

I'm personally looking forward to a similar product with even more gears (and in more colors) that will be cheaper (because it was made in a place with NO PAID vacation).

USA Kool Aid: Only $.10 a glass.

Lou

Last edited by Foldable Two; 09-09-10 at 06:56 PM.
Foldable Two is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 08:01 PM   #6
vik 
cyclopath
 
vik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Victoria, BC
Bikes: Surly Krampus, Surly Straggler, Pivot Mach 6, Bike Friday Tikit, Bike Friday Tandem, Santa Cruz Nomad
Posts: 5,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The Rohloff fits virtually any bike frame...look at the number actually in the wild...something like 100,000+. I've got 2 Rohloffs and I rarely if ever run into another Rohloff owner. Now imagine the Rohloff cost more and needed a very specific frame...how many do you think will be sold? Not many.

If you really want to point to a Rohloff killer I think the Alfine 11 will be a much bigger threat and if Shimano keeps going and produces an Alfine 14 for under $700 in the next couple years I think Rohloff will have some real problems.

Not that I think even a 14 speed Alfine is really the equivalent of the Rohloff, but for many people who would otherwise buy a Rohloff it's probably good enough and that may cut away enough revenue to make Rohloff not a viable concern.
__________________
safe riding - Vik
VikApproved
vik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 09:45 PM   #7
JulianEdgar
Senior Member
 
JulianEdgar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tarago, New South Wales, Australia
Bikes: Birdy, self-built recumbent suspension trikes
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Why are people so negative? Surely any cycling innovation - or potential innovation - is to be encouraged and welcomed?
JulianEdgar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 10:20 PM   #8
jur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 6,857
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
If it could be retrofitted I would be fine with it - the problem I foresee is that because it needs a dedicated frame, it will have limited sales potential. If they could develop a version for plain old bike frames, then bring it on.
jur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 10:24 PM   #9
jur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 6,857
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
I am leery of statements like 'unbelievably efficient'... why not quote the actual figures? Is it efficient compared to derailers, other geared hubs, truck gear boxes or what?? When the NuVinci came out I looked but never found figures either.
jur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 10:40 PM   #10
vik 
cyclopath
 
vik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Victoria, BC
Bikes: Surly Krampus, Surly Straggler, Pivot Mach 6, Bike Friday Tikit, Bike Friday Tandem, Santa Cruz Nomad
Posts: 5,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
Why are people so negative? Surely any cycling innovation - or potential innovation - is to be encouraged and welcomed?
I can't see the logic in being a cheerleader for any new innovation that somebody comes up with simply because it's new. If an idea makes sense and has a useful application it should be able to survive a critical appraisal on its merits. If not the folks behind it can benefit more from rational criticism that may lead to positive change rather than having loads of people tell them how rad their device is and then find themselves disappointed when the market in general doesn't actually want to buy any.
__________________
safe riding - Vik
VikApproved
vik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-10, 10:53 PM   #11
puppypilgrim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Bikes: Brodie Force w/ Xtracycle, Dahon Helios, Merida Folding, Pacific Carryme, Softride Classic
Posts: 791
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Vik, I was merely parroting another headline from the blogosphere. I don't really think its a Rohloff killer. Personally, I don't see much of an application for Nuvinci, Pinions and Rohloffs unless one is touring, has a cargo bike or a recumbent. I know it would be waste of money for me especially given my love for singlespeeds LOL.

Like most things in life, it comes down to price and these high end transmissions will always sell less than cheaper gear alternatives. Lets face it, for most people, derailleurs are perfectly adequate at their price point. Those who are odd may prefer IGHs. I think most bikes are too complex for the average user already.
puppypilgrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 02:36 AM   #12
mulleady
The Metropolis, UK
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vik View Post
The Rohloff fits virtually any bike frame...look at the number actually in the wild...something like 100,000+. I've got 2 Rohloffs and I rarely if ever run into another Rohloff owner. Now imagine the Rohloff cost more and needed a very specific frame...how many do you think will be sold? Not many.

If you really want to point to a Rohloff killer I think the Alfine 11 will be a much bigger threat and if Shimano keeps going and produces an Alfine 14 for under $700 in the next couple years I think Rohloff will have some real problems.

Not that I think even a 14 speed Alfine is really the equivalent of the Rohloff, but for many people who would otherwise buy a Rohloff it's probably good enough and that may cut away enough revenue to make Rohloff not a viable concern.
+1 Bang on.
mulleady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 02:38 AM   #13
mulleady
The Metropolis, UK
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
@ Vik

Do you think the SRAM dual drive 27 speed competes with the Rohloff as a good wide range gearing system on folders?
mulleady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 03:32 AM   #14
JulianEdgar
Senior Member
 
JulianEdgar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tarago, New South Wales, Australia
Bikes: Birdy, self-built recumbent suspension trikes
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I can't see the logic in being a cheerleader for any new innovation that somebody comes up with simply because it's new. If an idea makes sense and has a useful application it should be able to survive a critical appraisal on its merits. If not the folks behind it can benefit more from rational criticism that may lead to positive change rather than having loads of people tell them how rad their device is and then find themselves disappointed when the market in general doesn't actually want to buy any.
That would perhaps make more sense if every single innovation in cycle design hadn't been initially greeted by a bunch of people all saying how hopeless it was - from deraillueurs to small wheeled bikes to suspension to pnuematic tyres.

It pays no dividends to be negative about innovation. If it's no good it won't last - but no invention is helped by widespread , knee-jerk denigration.
JulianEdgar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 03:42 AM   #15
mulleady
The Metropolis, UK
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Americans are better and stronger people because they haven't been made "soft" by too much PAID vacation. In addition, NOT getting health-care for every little medical abnormality, and having a little extra body fat, insures our immunity to many of the diseases that kill-off lesser societies!
WTF?

Is that why you have more shrinks per head of population than most 'lesser societies' to help you cope with work-related stress?

What about your increasing obesity? I presume this is a well referenced article:

Obesity in the United States has been increasingly cited as a major health issue in recent decades. While many industrialized countries have experienced similar increases, obesity rates in the United States are among the highest in the world with as of 2007 74.1 % of the adults being overweight or obese.[2]
Estimates of the number of obese American adults have been steadily expanding, from 19.4% in 1997, 24.5% in 2004[3] to 26.6% in 2007.[4]

I can assure you there are many 'lesser societies' with better life expectancy and tougher people, especially the Mediterranean and Asian regions.

Apologies to my good American friends but I cannot abide this absurd and jingoistic crap which I know most of you don't subscribe to. I have 6 weeks paid leave a year but I can assure you I'm as 'tough' as anyone with 2 lousy weeks vacation. How many people strive in the US to pay proper health insurance and access to equitable treatment from the poorer classes?

Stick to folding bikes. If you want to be proud of Bike Fridays & Swifts that's more than OK but keep your other flawed and eogcentric views to yourself Foldabletwo!
mulleady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 04:34 AM   #16
Folding-Bikes
Senior Member
 
Folding-Bikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Bikes: Pacific-Reach SL
Posts: 302
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foldable Two View Post
Americans are better and stronger people because they haven't been made "soft" by too much PAID vacation. In addition, NOT getting health-care for every little medical abnormality, and having a little extra body fat, insures our immunity to many of the diseases that kill-off lesser societies!

I'm personally looking forward to a similar product with even more gears (and in more colors) that will be cheaper (because it was made in a place with NO PAID vacation).

USA Kool Aid: Only $.10 a glass.

Lou
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/m...-European.html

+1 on sticking to folding bikes
Folding-Bikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 05:07 AM   #17
mulleady
The Metropolis, UK
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And I really admire the Germans. They reunited a economically depressed region without falling apart. They have better holidays and a social system than many countries and they make some wonderful bike components and some pretty decent input even into folding bikes. The Birdy was born from both German and Taiwanese ingenuity. I would have nothing on my Brompton other than Schmidt (son) and Busch & Muller and what still betters the Rolhoff?

The Germans are well tough!
mulleady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 05:10 AM   #18
mulleady
The Metropolis, UK
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folding-Bikes View Post
Ahh I forgot the indomitable Scandinavians and Northern Europeans. Thanks FB! :-D
mulleady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 07:56 AM   #19
bhkyte
Senior Member
 
bhkyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: York UK
Bikes: 2X dualdrive Mezzo folder,plus others
Posts: 2,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mulleady View Post
@ Vik

Do you think the SRAM dual drive 27 speed competes with the Rohloff as a good wide range gearing system on folders?
Someone give me a Rohloff and I will gladly compair!
bhkyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 07:59 AM   #20
brakemeister 
New usename ThorUSA
 
brakemeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Southern Illinois USA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I keep myself out of the Euro?America discussion..... lol
I do want to respond to Julian though ....
a lot of negativity is not really a state of mind but a reasonable wisdom or dose of reality. I applaud all the transmissions I saw at Eurobike and even all the quirky inventions which obviusly will not work. I am all for it...
HOWEVER ....
If somebody comes up with marketing hype and no real facts .... if you can take product X out of the test and replace it with electric toothbrush and the text still makes sense ( somewhat ) than I have the right as more or less eductated bike rider to have my opinion.

I am eager to learn ..... therefore if my opion is flawed I am the first to apologize and go with it ... but in the meantime I might have doubts. The bicycle has been around more than 100 years and has seen a lot of inventions come and go ... some of the better ones have stuck around . And without a doubt a bicycle of today is a very fine optimized machine .... BUT a lot of things look very similar than 100 years ago as well.... there are reasons for this
Thor
__________________
www.thorusa.com
Dahon : Freedom Unfolds
Tern : all about the ride
brakemeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 08:02 AM   #21
vik 
cyclopath
 
vik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Victoria, BC
Bikes: Surly Krampus, Surly Straggler, Pivot Mach 6, Bike Friday Tikit, Bike Friday Tandem, Santa Cruz Nomad
Posts: 5,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
That would perhaps make more sense if every single innovation in cycle design hadn't been initially greeted by a bunch of people all saying how hopeless it was - from deraillueurs to small wheeled bikes to suspension to pnuematic tyres.

It pays no dividends to be negative about innovation. If it's no good it won't last - but no invention is helped by widespread , knee-jerk denigration.
I see so you are suggesting an analysis of the pros/cons of the system relative to other available options is a knee-jerk denigration of the product? Personally I am an early adopter of technology that I think provides a useful function. I bought one of the first generation Tikits. I bought the first generation Hammerschmidt from SRAM. I had a computer at home back when that was crazy talk. You make a good product I can see a rationale for and I'll give you my money to support you and then blog about it so other people get the msg. But, I certainly feel that talking about products that are offered for sale and discussing their merits relative to other options that solve the same or similar problems is not only appropriate, but helpful to the manufacturer. It can guide their product development and let them tune their marketing campaign if certain elements of their design are not being fully understood.
__________________
safe riding - Vik
VikApproved
vik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 08:09 AM   #22
vik 
cyclopath
 
vik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Victoria, BC
Bikes: Surly Krampus, Surly Straggler, Pivot Mach 6, Bike Friday Tikit, Bike Friday Tandem, Santa Cruz Nomad
Posts: 5,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mulleady View Post
@ Vik

Do you think the SRAM dual drive 27 speed competes with the Rohloff as a good wide range gearing system on folders?
I've used the previous 3 x 7 system on a recumbent, but haven't used the Dual drive. I don't think it compares to a Rohloff since it has many of the problems of a derailleur drivetrain plus the losses due to the planetary gears in the IGH. However, it seems to work well enough that if the cost is considerably less than it would merit attention...I don't know what they cost. If the cost starts approaching Rohloff territory I would stick with a Rohloff. If you can get the DD for 30% of the cost of a Rohloff its probably worth it.

The Rohloff will still be working after 100,000kms...probably after 200,000kms so the operating cost is low if you ride enough kms.

If the Shimano Alfine 11 turns out to be a good IGH I think I would use it instead of the DD or Rohloff since it provides most of the benefits at less than 50% of the cost.
__________________
safe riding - Vik
VikApproved
vik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 08:54 AM   #23
Bacciagalupe
Professional Fuss-Budget
 
Bacciagalupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 6,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I for one welcome our new IGH overlords.

I concur it is unlikely to present a serious challenge to Rohloff, unless the Pinion truly does offer a major advantage over the Speedhub. However, I have little doubt that when the Speedhub first came out, some people were certain it would bomb due to high price and minimal advantages over the existing IGH's.

The Pinion could be very beneficial for touring, since it will be much easier to work on the rear wheel, and relocating the weight of the hub to the BB might improve handling. I'm not sure if folders will end up as the ideal application though.
Bacciagalupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 09:03 AM   #24
brakemeister 
New usename ThorUSA
 
brakemeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Southern Illinois USA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,469
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
funny fact is that the pinion people were seen going to lunch with the Rohloffs and drinking beer and having a good time ....

so much for Rohlloff killer

the dualdrive is very reliable despite mixing the bad and the good from both worlds. its roughly 30 to 40 % of a Rohloff if I remember
its absolutely great for folders as the cables are uncomplicated and chainline problems are no existing and the weight is tolerable and and and ......

thor
__________________
www.thorusa.com
Dahon : Freedom Unfolds
Tern : all about the ride
brakemeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-10, 09:18 AM   #25
bored117 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Riverside, CA
Bikes: Helium SL DA DI2, Defy Advanced 0 Di2, 6KU Fixie
Posts: 1,043
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I use SRAM dual drive 24 speed everyday and quite happy with it (Speed TR). Definite advantage is the fact you can change gear while stopped. Disadvantage is too similar to using dérailleur system. I believe DD is about 30% or less of the cost of Rohloff. Right around the price of current nexus 8 is my guess.
Excellent gear range, convenience, etc.
One thing I feel missing is the overlap of gearing make me having to switch both side at same time for things like mid+8 to high+6 to keep my cadence. (which definitely is easier to do than on front/rear dérailleur system) I would imagine rohloff or alfine 11 speed would be just... up... and forget it.
In short, very happy with what I have based on cost/performance. Daydreaming about tikit with 11 alfine or rohloff. (waiting to see how 11 alfine is going to turn out to be).

Oh and back on topic. That system looks very interesting. If they can make it more universal (not requiring weird bottom bracket) and cut down on weight a little, I can see it becoming valid option. I mean, it replaces some weight of crankcase, hub or dérailleur so probably 1.5lbs to 2lbs reduction would be excellent. I also like the idea about center of weight of bike being in middle. Would be interesting if they can figure out a way to make it work on regular bottom :")


Quote:
Originally Posted by vik View Post
I've used the previous 3 x 7 system on a recumbent, but haven't used the Dual drive. I don't think it compares to a Rohloff since it has many of the problems of a derailleur drivetrain plus the losses due to the planetary gears in the IGH. However, it seems to work well enough that if the cost is considerably less than it would merit attention...I don't know what they cost. If the cost starts approaching Rohloff territory I would stick with a Rohloff. If you can get the DD for 30% of the cost of a Rohloff its probably worth it.

The Rohloff will still be working after 100,000kms...probably after 200,000kms so the operating cost is low if you ride enough kms.

If the Shimano Alfine 11 turns out to be a good IGH I think I would use it instead of the DD or Rohloff since it provides most of the benefits at less than 50% of the cost.

Last edited by bored117; 09-10-10 at 09:42 AM.
bored117 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:36 PM.