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  1. #1
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    ISO406 kevlar belted folding tires

    Is there anything other than the Greenspeed Scorchers [EDIT: Scorchers don't have both features] and the Schwalbe Big Apple Lites? I know Schwalbe makes a few other tires with puncture protection, but I'm not sure if it's Kevlar and I try to avoid products with trademarked features.
    Last edited by chucky; 01-03-11 at 08:57 PM.

  2. #2
    Hooligan Abneycat's Avatar
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    (Sorry, missed kevlar *and* folding. Marathon Supreme is close to what you may want)

    Schwalbe makes a huge swath of 406mm tires. Their terms are as follows:

    "Raceguard" is basically nylon reinforcement.
    "Kevlarguard" is a kevlar belted reinforcement, which is pretty obvious
    "Smartguard" is a kevlar belt reinforcement with a thick buffer layer of india rubber on top. I personally think it works fantastically, albeit this makes the tire quite portly.
    Last edited by Abneycat; 01-03-11 at 08:34 PM.

  3. #3
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abneycat View Post
    I know of Primo Comets, and Continental makes the contact and sport contact in 406.

    Schwalbe makes a huge swath of 406mm tires. Their terms are as follows:

    "Raceguard" is basically nylon reinforcement.
    "Kevlarguard" is a kevlar belted reinforcement, which is pretty obvious
    "Smartguard" is a kevlar belt reinforcement with a thick buffer layer of india rubber on top. I personally think it works fantastically, albeit this makes the tire quite portly.
    -Primo Comets come with either a kevlar belt or a kevlar bead, but not both together.
    -The SportContact has a wire bead and although Continental makes the Contact Extralight with a kevlar bead, they don't offer that version in ISO406.

    So it looks like if I want both a Kevlar puncture belt AND a Kevlar folding bead my choices are:
    -Schwalbe Big Apple Lite
    -Schwalbe Marathon Racer (folding version)
    -Greenspeed Scorcher (kevlar version) [EDIT: scratch that this is a mistake]

    Are there any other tires I'm missing? There's also the Marathon Supreme (folding version) from Schwalbe with the HD Ceramic guard, but I'm not sure what that is or if I want it. Personally I'm not interested in the Smartguard of the Marathon Racer either, but I've included it in the above list for completeness.
    Last edited by chucky; 01-03-11 at 08:55 PM.

  4. #4
    Hooligan Abneycat's Avatar
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    Oops! I missed the folding part, sorry about that!

    Marathon Racers have nylon reinforcement instead of kevlar.

    The Supreme is a really nice tire. HD guard supposedly is a step up from a regular kevlar belt in terms of protection. The ride quality was extremely good, and they're very grippy in wet conditions. I was personally really happy with these tires in particular, ended up riding a winter season here with the supreme as the rear tire and never bothered installing the winter tire instead. Fishtailed on some ice ponds here and there on the roads, but it did a really nice job of staying in control for the most part. I can't get away with that using most other tires in these parts.
    Last edited by Abneycat; 01-03-11 at 08:37 PM.

  5. #5
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abneycat View Post
    The Supreme is a really nice tire. HD guard supposedly is a step up from a regular kevlar belt in terms of protection. The ride quality was extremely good, and they're very grippy in wet conditions. I was personally really happy with these tires in particular, ended up riding a winter season here with the supreme as the rear tire and never bothered installing the winter tire instead. Fishtailed on some ice ponds here and there on the roads, but it did a really nice job of staying in control for the most part. I can't get away with that using most other tires in these parts.
    Yeah, well that's just the problem with these fictitious names. By calling it "HD guard" Schwalbe gets to tell people what to think because when people say "What is HD guard?" Schwalbe says "HD guard is a step up" and, bingo, placebo effect ensures that people think it's better regardless of whether or not it really is. No thanks, I'm not playing that game. If you try to manipulate me like that then I won't buy your product regardless of how good it is.

    I don't have any problems with grip. What I do have problems with is getting my damn tires on and off the rims and with punctures. I find a Kevlar belt with a Mr Tuffy stops the punctures and a Kevlar bead makes it easier to get the tire on and off the rims. So that's what I need, not any damn "HD guard" which I've never heard of in my life.

    You know I was just doing a little more research and I don't think the Scorchers are available with both a Kevlar belt and a Kevlar bead simultaneously (like the Comets). So we can scratch that one off the list, leaving:
    -Schwalbe Big Apple Lite
    -Schwalbe Marathon Racer (folding version)

  6. #6
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    In the mean time I've ordered a Maxxis Miracle folding tire from danscomp.com

    I also researched some other folding bead tires which I'd be interested in trying such as:
    1. Tioga Powerband S-spec - as slick as a normal road tire and amazingly light (295g) for its width (1.85")
    2. Intense Micro Knobby or Mk2 - available in many widths and also extremely light...it's not perfectly slick but could be good for unpaved roads
    3. Panaracer Minits Lite PT - at 170g this must be the lightest 20" tire available...it's narrow (1.25"), but it also has some sort of puncture belt.

    I went with the Maxxis because it was too cheap to pass up ($12) and for brand loyalty (since all my non 20" tires are Maxxis). It weighs about the same as the wire beaded version of the Big Apple it's replacing...so we'll see how it compares.

    None of these have Kevlar belts, but they're so much lighter and cheaper than the typical recommendations that I'm willing to experiment.
    Last edited by chucky; 01-04-11 at 01:21 AM.

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    I like my Maxxis Grifter.
    Btw, I found my wire bead 20x2 BAs to weigh around 615g rather than the 530 official spec.

  8. #8
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chagzuki View Post
    I like my Maxxis Grifter.
    Btw, I found my wire bead 20x2 BAs to weigh around 615g rather than the 530 official spec.
    The Grifter's a bit knobby for the street isn't it?

    I decided to cancel my order for the Maxxis Miracle due to reports of extreme stiffness. Instead I'm gonna get the Tioga Powerband S-spec because it's cheap and has a high thread count. The folding tire from Suelo also looks good with the silkworm cap, but it's not much cheaper than the Big Apple Lites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    Instead I'm gonna get the Tioga Powerband S-spec because it's cheap and has a high thread count.
    Where did you find them cheap? .. the folding S-spec seems to run $30+ and up ..

  10. #10
    jur
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    I used a Maxxis DTH 20x1.75 foldable on my NZ tour.
    My folding bike photo essays www.dekter.net/

  11. #11
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceMetras View Post
    Where did you find them cheap? .. the folding S-spec seems to run $30+ and up ..
    Niagara cycle has them on clearance (both on their site and on Amazon) for $27.72. Not as cheap as the $12 Maxxis Miracles at Danscomp, but between the thread count, the psi rating, the product description, and Tioga's reputation (from the discontinued Comp Pools) I'm expecting the S-spec Powerbands to be comparable in suppleness to Schwalbe's folding tires which cost more like $50.

    Sure the Intense Micro Knobbys are a little cheaper but I decided to try the Powerbands while they're on sale. The other fat folding BMX tires with high psi ratings have reputations for stiffness (Suelo even brags about it) and the MiniTS, while also affordable, aren't going to help me wear out my steel beaded Big Apples in front.

    Also, if you're looking for deals on tires Calhouncycle.com is having their annual $2 flat rate shipping sale. Unfortunately they don't carry any cheap folding tires in ISO406.

    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    I used a Maxxis DTH 20x1.75 foldable on my NZ tour.
    How did you find them? Not too stiff? Puncture prone/proof?
    Last edited by chucky; 01-04-11 at 08:22 PM.

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    I still have a good pair of the Tioga Comp Pools.. I like that tire a lot! .. totally slick, low rolling resistance and comfortable.. too bad it's not still made.. great tire in the 1.75 width...

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    jur
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    How did you find them? Not too stiff? Puncture prone/proof?
    They aren't as fast as say the Primo Comets I am running now. I did not get punctures with them (but I do run with a Slime liner in the back). The sidewalls are quite flexy so I suspect their rolling resistance is not bad. They are a racing tyre so that bodes well. They stood up perfectly against the rigours of touring on and off-road.

    I wanted a folding tyre as it is so much easier to take a spare along.


    BTW I have nothing but praise for the Intense Micro Knobbies. It is light weight, very flexible sidewall and is perfect for mixed-mode riding. Connie has one of them on the front and it is lasting many 1000s of kms. She has had the odd puncture, I don't think they are very puncture resistant. But we run all our back wheels with Slime liners anyway as I have long ago lost confidence in built-in puncture protection. It has never really worked for me. I am not so sure though about its longevity when used on the back. I think the tread will wear rather quickly.
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  14. #14
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    They aren't as fast as say the Primo Comets I am running now. I did not get punctures with them (but I do run with a Slime liner in the back). The sidewalls are quite flexy so I suspect their rolling resistance is not bad. They are a racing tyre so that bodes well. They stood up perfectly against the rigours of touring on and off-road.

    I wanted a folding tyre as it is so much easier to take a spare along.


    BTW I have nothing but praise for the Intense Micro Knobbies. It is light weight, very flexible sidewall and is perfect for mixed-mode riding. Connie has one of them on the front and it is lasting many 1000s of kms. She has had the odd puncture, I don't think they are very puncture resistant. But we run all our back wheels with Slime liners anyway as I have long ago lost confidence in built-in puncture protection. It has never really worked for me. I am not so sure though about its longevity when used on the back. I think the tread will wear rather quickly.
    I operate under the philosophy that a tire liner doesn't protect against large objects (such as nails) and a built in kevlar belt doesn't protect against fine points (like fine wires, glass slivers, or the tip of a nail). Therefore, I use a built in kevlar belt to block the large objects AND a liner of cut resistant material to stop the sharp points.

    One should note that I do not believe built in cut resistant layers can substitute for a cut resistant liner nor can a kevlar liner substitute for built in kevlar. The reason is that large objects need to be braced against entering deep into the tire (which can be accomplished with kevlar held firmly by the carcass) whereas the cut resistant layer works better if it can move a little because that makes it more difficult to cut...especially if most potential cutters are the short tips of "icebergs" which are being held at bay by the braced kevlar.

    The only flats I've gotten this way have been from either not using a wide enough liner to cover the tread or from not installing the liners properly (with talc).

    So that's why I want Kevlar belting and I want folding beads because my rims are simply horribly outside of reasonable manufacturing tolerances and removing steel bead tires from them is such a barbarous task that I refuse to do it ever again.

  15. #15
    tcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    Are there any other tires I'm missing?
    Bell Sports Freestyle. $10-$15 @ Walmart, Kmart, Target, Sears (USA).
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

  16. #16
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    Bell Sports Freestyle. $10-$15 @ Walmart, Kmart, Target, Sears (USA).
    This appears to have a steel bead (not a folding tire).

  17. #17
    AEO
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    I operate under the philosophy that a tire liner doesn't protect against large objects (such as nails) and a built in kevlar belt doesn't protect against fine points (like fine wires, glass slivers, or the tip of a nail). Therefore, I use a built in kevlar belt to block the large objects AND a liner of cut resistant material to stop the sharp points.

    One should note that I do not believe built in cut resistant layers can substitute for a cut resistant liner nor can a kevlar liner substitute for built in kevlar. The reason is that large objects need to be braced against entering deep into the tire (which can be accomplished with kevlar held firmly by the carcass) whereas the cut resistant layer works better if it can move a little because that makes it more difficult to cut...especially if most potential cutters are the short tips of "icebergs" which are being held at bay by the braced kevlar.

    The only flats I've gotten this way have been from either not using a wide enough liner to cover the tread or from not installing the liners properly (with talc).

    So that's why I want Kevlar belting and I want folding beads because my rims are simply horribly outside of reasonable manufacturing tolerances and removing steel bead tires from them is such a barbarous task that I refuse to do it ever again.
    IMO, bad tire mounting and removal technique is more of a problem than bad tolerances.

    And steering around such large, puncture causing, road debris is much better than all the armour you can clad your tire up with. You can still get punctures, even with all the protection you slap on the tire.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
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  18. #18
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    BTW I have nothing but praise for the Intense Micro Knobbies. It is light weight, very flexible sidewall and is perfect for mixed-mode riding. Connie has one of them on the front and it is lasting many 1000s of kms. She has had the odd puncture, I don't think they are very puncture resistant. But we run all our back wheels with Slime liners anyway as I have long ago lost confidence in built-in puncture protection. It has never really worked for me. I am not so sure though about its longevity when used on the back. I think the tread will wear rather quickly.
    Is your praise for the regular Micro Knobby or the Micro Knobby MK2? As to tread wearing down quickly in the rear...I'd prefer a slicker center tread anyway.

    After another order mishap I decided to also cancel the Powerband tires and order the Intense MK2 Micro Knobby. The reasons are:
    -They're a much narrower 1.5", I believe a good deal of my tire mounting problems are due to using tires which are too wide for the rims. If they're very easy to mount then I might consider wire beads again, which would greatly increase my choices.
    -Many people have been impressed with their efficiency and flexible sidewalls...someone even said the efficiency is comparable to Stelvios.
    -I'd like a little more traction over unplowed/unshoveled snow. Once I wear out the Big Apples I'd also like to try the Panaracer MiniITS and the MK2 might get a second life as an easy front tire swap for snow.
    -I'd like to experiment to see if built in puncture protection really complements urethane tire liners as I believe...so we'll see how the supposedly puncture prone MK2s stack up when supplemented by a Mr Tuffy. If the liner provides 99% of the protection then I'd have many more tires to choose from.
    -They have a low MSRP, so if I like them I should always be able to get them cheaply, which will save me lots of $ in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    IMO, bad tire mounting and removal technique is more of a problem than bad tolerances.
    ...and I used to believe this, but after many years of honing my technique and being able to change the tires without tools on my other bikes, it still takes me a good 3-4 hours, a few destroyed tire levers, and some blood to change the tires on this bike.

    I'm not the only one, there's something wrong with these rims:
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...e-off-the-rim-!!

    Perhaps they're overly narrow. Although the rims are erroneously marked "16-559", I dare not take the tire off to measure because I'm not sure if the steel bead can survive another beating. Seriously, it's a good thing small diameter wheels are so stiff because I've tacoed wheels with far less force than what it takes to remove tires from these rims.

    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    And steering around such large, puncture causing, road debris is much better than all the armour you can clad your tire up with. You can still get punctures, even with all the protection you slap on the tire.
    Sure you can steer around road debris and directly into the path of that Mac truck which has decided to pass too closely, but, personally, I'd rather get puncture protection and live.

    Last puncture I got was from hitting a deep pile of glass on a highway service road at night. It looked like an entire pane that fell off a truck and was swept into a pile and the only reason it managed to puncture was because the glass was deep enough to bypass the tread and tire liner.

    ...and it took me half the next day to repair the tire (I'm lucky I didn't have to go to work). The idea is not to eliminate punctures entirely, but to reduce the frequency of failure to that of any other bike component so that punctures are no more of an issue than cracked frames.

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    If it were me having that much trouble with a set of rims, I'd just lace up something else... the only time I have ever had a problem with any 406 wheel over the last 8 years was with genuine Rolf wheels and Continental Grand Prix tires... ever .. that combination is seriously tough.. with all the Downtubes I've had, never a problem swapping tires around ... so I'd assume your VIIIH rims are oversize for whatever reason and just swap them for most anything that works.. then your tire choices become a more normal selection process.

  20. #20
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceMetras View Post
    If it were me having that much trouble with a set of rims, I'd just lace up something else... the only time I have ever had a problem with any 406 wheel over the last 8 years was with genuine Rolf wheels and Continental Grand Prix tires... ever .. that combination is seriously tough.. with all the Downtubes I've had, never a problem swapping tires around ... so I'd assume your VIIIH rims are oversize for whatever reason and just swap them for most anything that works.. then your tire choices become a more normal selection process.
    Given the fact that folding tires are lighter and the fact that, even on normal rims, changing out a steel bead on the side of the road isn't exactly a picnic (and especially not with an IGH), I think rebuilding other bike components in order to make wire bead and/or nonkevlar belted tires more appealing is counterproductive.

    There are many reasons why folding beads and kevlar belts are better and even if I jump through hoops to eliminate the most compelling reasons, the other reasons will still remain. What you're proposing is a bit like noting that one bike is faster than another and then concluding that one should ride the fast bike with the brakes on.

    Besides, like you said, even premium tires on premium rims can cause problems, so we (I) might as well figure out how to pick tires that work regardless of what rim they're mated with and that entails finding tires which:
    1. Have enough give to muscle on even if they don't quite fit.
    2. Hardly ever need to be removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    Given the fact that folding tires are lighter and the fact that, even on normal rims, changing out a steel bead on the side of the road isn't exactly a picnic (and especially not with an IGH), I think rebuilding other bike components in order to make wire bead and/or nonkevlar belted tires more appealing is counterproductive.
    Really, I think spending 3 to 4 hours changing out a tire is counterproductive and emotionally destructive .. for someone who enjoys being efficient in regards to your biking whenever possible, call me surprised .

    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    There are many reasons why folding beads and kevlar belts are better and even if I jump through hoops to eliminate the most compelling reasons, the other reasons will still remain. What you're proposing is a bit like noting that one bike is faster than another and then concluding that one should ride the fast bike with the brakes on.
    Not me.. what I'm saying is, if any rim that I own took me longer than 10 minutes to change the vast majority of tires on, I would jettison it..

  22. #22
    AEO
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    well, if you're so determined to keep the combo, then cut the beading on the tire in a few spots.
    they're perfectly ridable after this and mounting/unmounting is much easier.


    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  23. #23
    tcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky View Post
    This appears to have a steel bead (not a folding tire).
    It comes folded in a box! But suit yourself.
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

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  24. #24
    It's got electrolytes! chucky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    well, if you're so determined to keep the combo, then cut the beading on the tire in a few spots.
    they're perfectly ridable after this and mounting/unmounting is much easier.
    Nice tip...maybe I'll try it. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    It comes folded in a box! But suit yourself.
    Thanks for pointing this out. I'll have to go track one down.

  25. #25
    jur
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    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    well, if you're so determined to keep the combo, then cut the beading on the tire in a few spots.
    they're perfectly ridable after this and mounting/unmounting is much easier.
    This is new to me... how does this affect the reliability? Why is a bead then needed at all? I can only think that a bead is the base for the tyre strength.
    My folding bike photo essays www.dekter.net/

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