Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28
  1. #1
    Senior Member mtalinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Westwood MA (just south of Boston)
    My Bikes
    2009 Trek Soho
    Posts
    2,151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    hillclimb with my folder or my road bike?

    I signed up for the Mt. Washington hillclimb this summer and am wondering which bike to use. The mountain is a 12% grade for 7.6 miles.

    My default is a Spec Roubaix, currently with a 30/28 low end though I can make the front ring a 24 to get to the 1:1 ratio.

    I've been wondering whether a folder might climb equally well or even better given the smaller wheels, which I find are generally easier to get going. In the folder department, I have two to choose from:

    '06 Xootr swift with stock setup (flat bar, 406 wheels, currently 40/28 low end).

    '11 Xootr swift with drop bars, 451 wheels, currently 40/26 low end.

    Thoughts on climbing with the smaller wheels? Of the two folders, I might use the older one as I leave my hands on the tops for climbing anyway, and it's easier to swap in a wider cassette (the 451 has a capreo hub).
    Trek Domane 4.5 (commute/distance), Specialized Roubaix (climber), Xootr Swift (winter/travel), Trek Soho (around town)

  2. #2
    jur
    jur is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    6,113
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Whoa that is a monster!

  3. #3
    Senior Member mtalinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Westwood MA (just south of Boston)
    My Bikes
    2009 Trek Soho
    Posts
    2,151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    Whoa that is a monster!
    which is why I am panicked, and looking for any advantage including small wheels
    Trek Domane 4.5 (commute/distance), Specialized Roubaix (climber), Xootr Swift (winter/travel), Trek Soho (around town)

  4. #4
    New usename ThorUSA brakemeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Southern Illinois USA
    Posts
    2,469
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    put the swift front wheel in the roubaix......

    sorry couldnt help ...

    thor

  5. #5
    AEO
    AEO is offline
    Senior Member AEO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
    My Bikes
    Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
    Posts
    12,245
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    use this: http://www.gear-calculator.com/#

    see which bike gets the lowest gear.
    use that.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  6. #6
    jur
    jur is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    6,113
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OK let's have a go...

    my Swift which did the Alpine Classic a few weeks ago, has 451 wheels, a 42T small ring up front and I installed a 11-34T cassette for the event. I normally use a 11-28T cassette but for the 200km event the last 70km of climbing in high summer during the hottest part of the day, is very hard to do and I wanted looooow gears for when my legs want to give up, so I could just spin to the top.

    Even that wasn't as low as I thought I wanted.

    But the Alpine Classic while much longer does not include such steep sections, so my guess is even lower than 42T + 34T would be good to have. Not only that, but a bike setup that allows you to spin comfortably while on steep parts is also good to have. It would be no good if the front wheel lifted up, so perhaps push the saddle as for forward as it will go and tlited down, and put the bars quite far below the level of the saddle. This will be awkward to ride on level ground but uphill it should give you a good advantage.

    So to recap, give yourself as low a gear as you can fit on th bike while retaining a good range. My range was 25-108"; I would go for a 39T and a 36T cassette on Mt Washington. Or alternatively train to stand on the pedals for very long stretches.

  7. #7
    jur
    jur is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    6,113
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I actually live on a road which is like a mini Mt Washington - long parts are 10% or more, and it peaks at 19% in a few places. While I can do this one easily, I wouldn't be very cocky to be confronted with 12km of this stuff. My total climb is about 7.8km. But there are a few almost level stretches as well and the total climb is just under 500m.

    Anyway, I would probably be able to do it with the 28T cassette but I would install my 34T for this one. Unfortunately my FD can't handle anything smaller than 42T.

  8. #8
    Senior Member snafu21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Mangroves, UK
    My Bikes
    None.
    Posts
    1,896
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Get the bus.
    Last edited by snafu21; 02-13-12 at 12:32 AM.
    - every mile of road has two miles of ditch -

  9. #9
    train safe buelito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reston, VA
    Posts
    801
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    use one of your folders. Anyone an climb that on a Specialized-- but riding on the folder will be unique. Your 'bragging rights' will be enhanced with the folder I remember seeing somewhere that someone rode a 1x1 ratio fixed gear swift up that ride. That seemed a lot more impressive to me that another person going up on a big-name road bike. I will see if I can find the link--

    train safe-

    train safe
    ____________________________________________________
    avatar is on Flagstaff Mtn, Boulder, Colorado--on the fixie--

  10. #10
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    NW,Oregon Coast
    My Bikes
    7
    Posts
    39,197
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    got a Schlumpf Mountain drive for my Brompton..they have a version with a dedicated
    torque arm fitting, for those bikes.. Crank reduction gear puts its low into the mid 17'' range.
    AW3, 15 t cog, 54t chainring, 349 wheel.

  11. #11
    Senior Member snafu21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Mangroves, UK
    My Bikes
    None.
    Posts
    1,896
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    --
    Last edited by snafu21; 02-13-12 at 12:32 AM.
    - every mile of road has two miles of ditch -

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    63
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Get an Eno hub and run the Specialized as a fixed gear. (Are fixed gears allowed on that hillclimb?)

    Ryan

  13. #13
    Senior Member mtalinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Westwood MA (just south of Boston)
    My Bikes
    2009 Trek Soho
    Posts
    2,151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    use this: http://www.gear-calculator.com/#

    see which bike gets the lowest gear.
    use that.
    wouldn't any gearing setup be lower on a bike with smaller wheels?

    It would be no good if the front wheel lifted up, so perhaps push the saddle as for forward as it will go and tlited down, and put the bars quite far below the level of the saddle. This will be awkward to ride on level ground but uphill it should give you a good advantage.
    thanks for this tip - I have been doing some involuntary mini-wheelies on my practice rides
    'Bragging rights'

    The TV crews will have a field day with the rider coming home last on a 'clownbike'.

    For real bragging rights, ride up on the road bike, with the folder on your back. :-)
    you've obviously mistaken me for someone confident in his ability to finish :-)

    well, I am hoping to drop poundage the equivalent of two Swifts by the time of the race!

    of course if someone already did it on a FG swift then bragging rights would seriously be reduced...

    Whack the biggest cassette you can on the back of the road bike, and a smaller chainwheel on the front, and fit hard treadless tyres, with low profiles, (less sidewall flex and air movement), tension up the spokes, and get the tyre pressures way up, is the simple answer.
    that is pretty much the plan. thanks for the endorsement
    Last edited by mtalinm; 02-12-12 at 04:10 PM.
    Trek Domane 4.5 (commute/distance), Specialized Roubaix (climber), Xootr Swift (winter/travel), Trek Soho (around town)

  14. #14
    AEO
    AEO is offline
    Senior Member AEO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    A Coffin Called Earth. or Toronto, ON
    My Bikes
    Bianchi, Miyata, Dahon, Rossin
    Posts
    12,245
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mtalinm View Post
    wouldn't any gearing setup be lower on a bike with smaller wheels?
    yes, however most folder bikes are geared so they have the same gearing range as a regular bike.
    your best bet is to run your gearing through a calculator to see which bike comes up with the lowest gearing.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  15. #15
    Senior Member mtalinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Westwood MA (just south of Boston)
    My Bikes
    2009 Trek Soho
    Posts
    2,151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    yes, however most folder bikes are geared so they have the same gearing range as a regular bike.
    your best bet is to run your gearing through a calculator to see which bike comes up with the lowest gearing.
    ok, then maybe I should find the lowest setup I can resaonably do on the road bike (24/28, I think) and then replicate it or better on the folder (maybe 24/36, that would be fun!)
    Trek Domane 4.5 (commute/distance), Specialized Roubaix (climber), Xootr Swift (winter/travel), Trek Soho (around town)

  16. #16
    jur
    jur is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    6,113
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OK, I did the Full Monty again this morning on the way to work to see how my gears would be while seated.

    On the steep section which is about 19% I could not remain seated - cadence too low, not comfortable enough, so I had to stand up. Everywhere else I could remain seated but if I was going to do Mt Washington (or Mt Baw Baw) I would think about getting some lower gears. (Actually I have done Baw Baw before on about the sort of gears I have on the Swift, and it involved lots of standing. It took me 44min.)

  17. #17
    Senior Member mtalinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Westwood MA (just south of Boston)
    My Bikes
    2009 Trek Soho
    Posts
    2,151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    wow, thanks for the test run!
    Trek Domane 4.5 (commute/distance), Specialized Roubaix (climber), Xootr Swift (winter/travel), Trek Soho (around town)

  18. #18
    jur
    jur is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    6,113
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The mention of Mt Baw Baw - it is Australia's hardest climb, and not that far from my house, so I have a desire to do it this coming weekend. It is just about exactly half a Mt Washington. Same average gradient, same bits in excess of 20%, but half the elevation gain and half the distance.

  19. #19
    Senior Member mtalinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Westwood MA (just south of Boston)
    My Bikes
    2009 Trek Soho
    Posts
    2,151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by buelito View Post
    use one of your folders. Anyone an climb that on a Specialized-- but riding on the folder will be unique. Your 'bragging rights' will be enhanced with the folder I remember seeing somewhere that someone rode a 1x1 ratio fixed gear swift up that ride. That seemed a lot more impressive to me that another person going up on a big-name road bike. I will see if I can find the link--

    train safe-

    train safe
    turns out that one of the founders of Xootr, Karl Ulrich, did it on a singlespeed Swift with 22/23 gearing (not fixed though). he had to swap the crank to fit the teensy chainring on there, but it worked great.
    Trek Domane 4.5 (commute/distance), Specialized Roubaix (climber), Xootr Swift (winter/travel), Trek Soho (around town)

  20. #20
    jur
    jur is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    6,113
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I did Baw Baw today. Its specs show it is almost exactly half a Mt Washington. It was relatively easy, interestingly enough I didn't notice the claimed +20% stretches, everything is so steep that a little steeper still you notice mainly by the necessity to stand up. My GPS was giving trouble so that one does not show the complete ride I did. But even though I enjoyed it, I was very glad to arrive at the top. To have to do another stretch as long and as steep, well...

    OK, back to gearing issues: It strikes me the most important parameter is to find the power you can sustain. That, combined withg the total mass that you are displacing vertically, gives the vertical average speed. Combine that with the average slope, and you have your forward speed on the slope. That now gives you the ability to calculate the gearing for a given cadence.

    So you need to find a constant longish slope and go do it for say 30 minutes at a pace which you can sustain for 90+ minutes. From that you can calculate power. Or you could directly extrapolate from the gear you used to Mt Washington's slope and the gear you will need. Factor in the expected weight loss, and give yourself a bailout gear as well.

    Easy!

  21. #21
    jur
    jur is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    6,113
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ah forgot to say the most important thing!

    The descent really sucked. Because it is so steep, you cannot just let go because in a few seconds you reach catastrophic speeds. And because of the small wheels, the braking surface is smaller. I was acutely conscious of the possibility of an overheating rim and possible blowout. So I stopped 4 or 5 times while descending to let the rims cool.

    So big question: Do you have to descend also? In that case the roadie may be a marginally better choice, although you would still need cooling stops even with the bigger wheels. Of course the more mass the worse the situation.

  22. #22
    Senior Member snafu21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Mangroves, UK
    My Bikes
    None.
    Posts
    1,896
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    "Of course the more mass the worse the situation."

    F=MA, both going up, and coming down: Newton was right. Take the road bike, mtalinm, unless you have somehow bypassed the physical laws of the known universe.

    (Karma to Jur for doing the practical experiment)

    Gravity sucks. Oh, a good starting point for a folder v. road bike comparision is the rotating mass of the wheels, the mass (M) of which is going to suck a lot of the F out your F=MA. Uphill, you're applying constant force to provide A and the less M (in the case of rotational inertia) the better.
    Last edited by snafu21; 02-18-12 at 02:40 AM.
    - every mile of road has two miles of ditch -

  23. #23
    Senior Member social suicide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Marquette
    Posts
    648
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by snafu21 View Post
    Get the bus.
    I went up Mt. Washington on the bus and read that the bicycle race is only about 1 minute faster than the foot race!
    http://www.tinmtn.org/mwarbh/results...2011/index.cfm
    http://www.mountwashingtonroadrace.c...ourse-records/

  24. #24
    Senior Member mtalinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Westwood MA (just south of Boston)
    My Bikes
    2009 Trek Soho
    Posts
    2,151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    they won't allow you to descend Mt. Washington; you have to have a driver to bring you down.

    I'm having a front wheel built with a Sturmey-Archer drum hub, so that might help on descents should I do any...

    Oh, and that Baw Baw is a nasty climb! There is a mt in Vermont also about half of Washington, but I"m going to give myself a couple of months of training before I attempt that.
    Trek Domane 4.5 (commute/distance), Specialized Roubaix (climber), Xootr Swift (winter/travel), Trek Soho (around town)

  25. #25
    jur
    jur is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    6,113
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by snafu21 View Post
    "Of course the more mass the worse the situation."

    F=MA, both going up, and coming down: Newton was right. Take the road bike, mtalinm, unless you have somehow bypassed the physical laws of the known universe.

    (Karma to Jur for doing the practical experiment)

    Gravity sucks. Oh, a good starting point for a folder v. road bike comparision is the rotating mass of the wheels, the mass (M) of which is going to suck a lot of the F out your F=MA. Uphill, you're applying constant force to provide A and the less M (in the case of rotational inertia) the better.
    I am inclined to think that bike mass is not as important as the few pounds of difference between the roadie and the Swift. In the scheme of things that's about 1% of total mass. If you are trying to win a race, by all means. But that definitely won't help you if you haven't put in the right training. Same with wheel rotating mass. It is so small in the overall scheme.

    So by a HUGE margin, the absolutely dominating factor is fitness, endurance. Riding uphill for long times is first and foremost an endurance issue. Get the engine right, and you will get DOUBLE the bike mass up there no problem. It will take you ten minutes longer but that's all.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •