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Old 06-05-12, 12:31 PM   #1
ukoro
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Pinion P1.18: You think it will be in future folders?

I've had this bookmarked for quite sometime and it looks really interesting: http://pinion.eu/discover-pinion/pinion-p1-18/
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Old 06-05-12, 02:06 PM   #2
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Cool, I was unaware of this brand.
Unfortunately its over 3 kilos which is 2 to 3 times as heavy as a regular derailler system.
Being German it probably works well but costs too much for most bikes.
Frankly I don't see why people would go for this since it still requires a chain and sprocket on the hub.
It seems best suited for downhill but I don't think you need 18 speeds for downhill.
18 speeds would be good for cross country and road, but not when there are far lighter and cheaper derailler systems around.
I'm curious as to what bikes this ends up in.
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Old 06-05-12, 11:19 PM   #3
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+1
Weight is an issue with folders. Looks like a specially made frame is required also http://pinion.eu/de/discover-pinion/partners/ . Not sure I`d take this to my local LBS and ask them to fix it
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Old 06-06-12, 12:07 AM   #4
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seems to resemble a Motorcycle tranny.. where R'off is 3 planetary 3 speeds, x2.
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Old 06-06-12, 03:22 AM   #5
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A lot of excitement at eurobike 2011, there are a lot of very good reasons to do it this way. Weight addition will not be that significant (1kg) when compared to what it replaces. Cost is high (1500), but so is Rohloff, and Rohloff is successful - no economies of scale yet for Pinion. Frame design is moot point, since high quality gearing is usually more expensive than the frame itself. @bm - derailleur components are minimum 1.5kg.
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Old 06-06-12, 11:48 AM   #6
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Geared bottom bracket, so frame needs to be designed around it. Seems that they should be able to come up with lighter/cheaper/fewer geared versions, and if successful will probably prod others into production. Does look like a small bike tranny, so not that difficult to engineer and difficult to pursue intellectual property(if any) infringements. Already several countries who crank out light, cheap, motorbikes and scooters.

Poking around, found that these have been available for mountain bikes for a few years now. Came across this - http://iris.lib.neu.edu/cgi/viewcont...h_eng_capstone. Will be interesting to see how it matures.
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Old 06-07-12, 05:14 AM   #7
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Poking around, found that these have been available for mountain bikes for a few years now. Came across this - http://iris.lib.neu.edu/cgi/viewcont...h_eng_capstone. Will be interesting to see how it matures.
Cool paper with interesting sources embedded (their work wasn't very good though), There's also a quasi-standard attempt from gboxx,

http://www.g-boxx.org/

But it seems to be somewhat dead.
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Old 06-08-12, 06:06 AM   #8
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I believe this transmission is suited more for MTBs, and given their normal operating environment, it makes sense but for folders, I don't see it happening. In fact, not even in high end travel bikes like those made by Bikefriday. The ubiquitous rear hub gears that are available now and are more reasonably priced work very well for folding bikes.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-08-12, 06:22 AM   #9
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The answer to the title question is "no".

In the 1890s the most common place to put gearing on a bicycle was at the bottom bracket. One of my favorites here. In the decade before WWI hub gears really drove all these out of the market for a combination of reasons.

Like everything in cycling, it gets reinvented every so often. In particular, the bottom bracket gearbox seems to be an idea the Germans just can't leave alone.
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Old 06-08-12, 09:20 AM   #10
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It is interesting, but I don't see enough of an advantage to compensate for the weight and the cost. Sometimes the tried and true methods work best.
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Old 06-08-12, 09:26 AM   #11
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Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea. Reducing rotational weight is a good thing. Low maintenance and cleanness are great for city/casual riders too. There is a 3-speed gear box that's coming out for Strida: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...box-for-Strida
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Old 06-09-12, 02:24 AM   #12
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Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea. Reducing rotational weight is a good thing. Low maintenance and cleanness are great for city/casual riders too. There is a
It's an extremely good idea - it's an evolution from internal gear hubs, putting the guts in something that never needs to be changed. It won't compete with the cheap folder issue, but having a real gear range on a folder and getting the weight low and not in the wheel are the ideal solution. It just needs to reach a $1000 Rohloff'ish price point. And it can do that. Schlumpf already has a market and it's the same system albeit trivial.

Here are some other advantages that come to mind:

- removing need for a cable to rear wheel area
- rear wheel can now be cheap and allowing for narrower rear triangle
- removing derailleur is good for smaller package, less area for chain issues
- drivetrain simplicity is much cleaner/trouble free going single speed style
- opening up possibility to belt drive if those [belt fragility] issues get worked out
- you could do a kick-shift system like the schlumpf so no cables.
- mentioned advantage of getting weight out of rotating rear hub, high flanges make for more difficult builds in small wheels (eg, rohloff doesnt recommend 16" builds)

The weight penalty can be considered as 1kg over normal (non-exotic weights) derailleur systems. The gear range from Pinion is superior to anything available in IGH or derailleurs. System lifetime is vastly superior, and several quality of riding characteristics are inherent.

;
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Old 06-09-12, 06:07 AM   #13
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Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
Bottom bracket gearboxes have been tried for the last 120 years. How much more time should we give it?
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Old 06-09-12, 11:00 AM   #14
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It's an extremely good idea - it's an evolution from internal gear hubs, putting the guts in something that never needs to be changed.
;
I think the fact that the frame has to be built around it is really the biggest issue. A Rohloff can be retrofit to pretty much any bike, which is a *huge* advantage. You can put it on a Rivendell; you can put it on a Brompton; BF offers the Rohloff option as part of their BTO plan...but you can also retrofit it.

This doesn't go to the technical merits of the system at all (including the fact that I would rather have the weight of the hub at the bottom bracket as opposed to on the rear wheel), but I think that these are practical reasons suggesting that this may not be widely adopted.
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Old 06-09-12, 12:24 PM   #15
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Time will tell. it would be nice to test ride a bike with this implemented to see how it functions.
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