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Old 06-18-12, 07:33 PM   #1
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Dahon finally releases their Brompton "killer"!


http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/current/jifo.htm

...and I got to test ride it Saturday at my old LBS. Impressions:
-Folds very small, but I'm not sure if it's smaller than a Brompton or not without seeing them side by side.
-Stands more sturdily while folded than the Brompton.
-Lighter than I remember the Brompton being.
-Handles well with a fairly stiff ride...way stiffer than the Brompton or tikit.
-Folds quicker than the Brompton...maybe not as quickly as the "hyper fold" tikit, but the Jifo's system of linked rods is less finicky: clack-clack and it's folded without any way to foul it up.
-Quick release pedals with a very easy-to-operate design.

So overall the Jifo seemed like it pretty much shared the same advantages and feel of other Dahons just with a smaller fold...and that includes the folding mechanism which has a certain polish and stiffness about it because the rods eliminate the need for the user to guide any flopping or swinging parts into place (hard to describe, but folding the Jifo feels more like "shutting a door" than "folding" something).

Only thing I don't like is the non-unified rear triangle...but I'm picky about that (when is Bike Friday going to make a 20" wheeled tikit?).
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Old 06-18-12, 08:00 PM   #2
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I see a couple of quick issues...

Single speed
Won't work for anyone over 5'-9"
Max weight recommendation is 209#

NOT a Brompton Killer IMHO


I'm out.

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Old 06-18-12, 08:08 PM   #3
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the ones we have are copper color, quite nice
darn that thing is small ..it fits very easy into the back of my miata ( mx5 Mazda ) almost certain I can get two in there ...
It fits EASY in the lazarette of my boat with lots of room to spare ...

Yes its one speed and 5.9 is pushing it ... although taller people have testride mine and they were impressed.
I will loose the silly fenders on my personal one ....

Now I am thinking of selling my Curve SL (internal gears) ... its a different bike and somehow rides even nicer, but I have too many bikes and having the jifo in the box on my boat will be better than having the Curve sitting at home ... ( no its not going to be cheap ...lol )

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Old 06-18-12, 08:16 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
I see a couple of quick issues...

Single speed
Won't work for anyone over 5'-9"
Max weight recommendation is 209#

NOT a Brompton Killer IMHO
Not sure where you got the idea that it "won't work" for anyone over 5'9" or 209lbs...thorusa says he "recommends" it for people under 5'9" and under 209lbs but perhaps he'd recommend the same for the Brompton? Thor says,
"these are some numbers, weights, measurements, which are different than the official Dahon word, but I feel much more comfortable with my own suggestions."

All I can say is to me it didn't feel any more cramped than the Brompton and the Brompton is also sold as a single speed, so I'm not sure why you'd count that as an "issue" with the Jifo (though I just realized that according to thor the Jifo uses a super narrow 76mm rear hub...so maybe upgrading it to a 3 speed will be harder than I initially thought).
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Old 06-18-12, 08:44 PM   #5
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Disclosure statement: I own a Brompton and I am very happy with it.

That said, I see one major flaw with the Dahon's rear fender: it's too short. Water will cling to the rear tire and then launch itself onto the back of the rider, their head and/or helmet, and the seat post. In know this because I own another folder with a rear fender that is too short, the KHS-F20-A. The front fender of the Dahon is also a little short and will splash the feet of the rider...again, because my KHS folder has the same problem.

Ultimately, I see Dahon's entry into the market as a good thing because it will drive the design and engineering of folding bikes to be more compact and more efficient. Brompton has the advantage because they've had decades to improve their design. Dahon has shown they are willing to take on the challenge, but I don't think they are there just yet.
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Old 06-18-12, 09:59 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky View Post

http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/current/jifo.htm

...and I got to test ride it Saturday at my old LBS. Impressions:
-Folds very small, but I'm not sure if it's smaller than a Brompton or not without seeing them side by side.
-Stands more sturdily while folded than the Brompton.
-Lighter than I remember the Brompton being.
-Handles well with a fairly stiff ride...way stiffer than the Brompton or tikit.
-Folds quicker than the Brompton...maybe not as quickly as the "hyper fold" tikit, but the Jifo's system of linked rods is less finicky: clack-clack and it's folded without any way to foul it up.
-Quick release pedals with a very easy-to-operate design.

So overall the Jifo seemed like it pretty much shared the same advantages and feel of other Dahons just with a smaller fold...and that includes the folding mechanism which has a certain polish and stiffness about it because the rods eliminate the need for the user to guide any flopping or swinging parts into place (hard to describe, but folding the Jifo feels more like "shutting a door" than "folding" something).

Only thing I don't like is the non-unified rear triangle...but I'm picky about that (when is Bike Friday going to make a 20" wheeled tikit?).
I thought the Brompton killer/cloner was supposed to be the Dahon Curl which to this date is still missing in action?!?
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Old 06-19-12, 02:39 AM   #7
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agreed-not a "brompton killer" at all
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Old 06-19-12, 03:42 AM   #8
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I am 6-2" and Dahon bikes, even the ones rated for someone my height run over an inch small in the leg extension department. Brompton says rider weight limit of 245#, and they offer the extension seat post.

I ride where there are hills, gears are a gotta unless you plan on walking...a lot. FWIW my regular Raleigh 3 speed has a 24t cog on the rear and I still have a couple that I have to walk up.

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Old 06-19-12, 05:51 AM   #9
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That aluminium single spar is going to crack away from the steering tube due to torsion induced work hardening. It is a common failure with Dahons and yet we all soldier on in denial of this design fault. This saddens me because the more successful folding designs there are out there the better.
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Old 06-19-12, 06:56 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky View Post
Thor says, "these are some numbers, weights, measurements, which are different than the official Dahon word, but I feel much more comfortable with my own suggestions."
Thor also claims the Jifo has a coaster brake, even though it doesn't.

Quote:
(though I just realized that according to thor the Jifo uses a super narrow 76mm rear hub...so maybe upgrading it to a 3 speed will be harder than I initially thought).
We'd all love to hear your thoughts on how multiple gearing could be added to the Jifo in any practical way.

I'm not in the industry and like Will Rogers I only know what I read in the papers. Andrew Ritchey has said the Brompton factory can produce 40,000 bikes a year. Dr. Hon has said the Dahon factories can produce 1,600,000 bikes a year. I seriously doubt there's been a single internal memo written @ Dahon N.A. about Brompton, and I don't even see these two bikes as competitors. The Jifo is a niche "last mile" bike in their extensive line-up.
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Old 06-19-12, 08:08 AM   #11
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I believe the Dahon Jifo 16 is a potential Brompton sales killer to people who might be looking at something like this. The Jifo gives people that option. It's the convenience when combined with transit that's closeby. You can cycle a mile or 2 FASTER than walking and people like that. Do they really care about fenders? They are just there to give a piece of mind. When it rains, they'll just walk.

How many Bromptons did I see thus far in Vancouver? Just 3 with 1 that's regular. I see a lot more Dahons. I was told that Dahon sales are the strongest in Europe, Asia and Australia + NZ. North American sales is a shockingly small portion, so how big is Brompton sales in North America? Probably very small as well. How many single speed cruisers I see on bike racks and in trains? A plenty! Single speed is not a limitation; it's what people want if they only plan to bike in the city and utilize transit which is what Brompton was conceived to do. You can get a basic non-folding single speed bike for a lot lot less than a Jifo or a Brompton. You can even get a non-folding steel Asama road bike with more speeds than a Brompton for 1/4 of the price. There are many factors that are potential Brompton sales killer and Dahon is not one of them.
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Old 06-19-12, 08:29 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacificcyclist View Post
I thought the Brompton killer/cloner was supposed to be the Dahon Curl which to this date is still missing in action?!?
You are right, the Jifo is the Brompton killer killer.
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Old 06-19-12, 08:46 AM   #13
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Hmmmm ... Brompton Killer is probably an overstatement. Although assuming Chucky's review is broadly accurate regarding ride and such, it certainly is a competitor.

The typical Brompton has a wider gear range and can carry stuff with the front mount. Moreover, the bag can stay on the front mount while folded. I think that these are big plusses in Brompton's favor.

It's hard to tell visually whether the Brompton or Jifo will fit a wider range of people -- the Jifo's handlebar post is height adjustable and is likely compatible with other Dahon stuff that lets different handlebars and such be conveniently used. I didn't see the Dahon factory specs, but it appears that the Brompton has a higher weight limit. I can't tell which bike's fold is more conveniently small in a neat package.

From some videos it appears that the Jifo folds fast and that you can roll it on its 16" wheels while folded. This is Although I would include the time to lower the saddle to the frame in its folding time and the time needed to adjust the saddle to the correct height in the unfolding time. Whether or not one includes pedals is a toss up, IMO. The Jifo's price is much lower. Overall, I'd think that this is clearly the advantage of the Jifo over Brompton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDzt8VdGeNQ
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Old 06-19-12, 09:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacificcyclist View Post
I believe the Dahon Jifo 16 is a potential Brompton sales killer ......


There are many factors that are potential Brompton sales killer and Dahon is not one of them.

Am I missing something here ?
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Old 06-19-12, 09:15 AM   #15
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16" wheeled Dahons have no stiffness advantage over bromptons, the handlepost, extended as far as it must be with such a low and short head tube, flexes as much as the Brompton does except being aluminium it's not such a lively, springy sort of flex. The felt increase in rigidity of the jifo will originate from the lack of rear suspension, which IMO is a massive disadvantage in a bike with such small wheels and such a short wheelbase.

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Old 06-19-12, 10:15 AM   #16
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I thought this was the curl ? Dabrom
http://www.nycewheels.com/dahon-fold...3484#f20360833
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Old 06-19-12, 11:05 AM   #17
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Look guys I put "killer" in quotes because that's what some people were calling Dahon's new designs that share some of the Brompton's advantages. I wasn't going to call the Jifo a clone because it's a very innovative design, but the design also clearly combines many of the Brompton's advantages while also solving some of the disadvantages....so IMO it's definitely an improvement over the Bromptom in some respects even if not the "killer" some were expecting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
I am 6-2" and Dahon bikes, even the ones rated for someone my height run over an inch small in the leg extension department. Brompton says rider weight limit of 245#, and they offer the extension seat post.


I ride where there are hills, gears are a gotta unless you plan on walking...a lot. FWIW my regular Raleigh 3 speed has a 24t cog on the rear and I still have a couple that I have to walk up.

This bike also has an extension seat post. So maybe you naysayers should give it a try before declaring how inferior it is based on brand name alone.


Not saying it will work for everyone, but the Brompton doesn't work for everyone either. I'm just sharing my impressions that's all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Thor also claims the Jifo has a coaster brake, even though it doesn't.


We'd all love to hear your thoughts on how multiple gearing could be added to the Jifo in any practical way.

Just swap out the singlespeed hub for a 3-speed hub just like a Brompton. However, if the rear hub is really only 76mm wide then this obviously won't work, but I'm skeptical about Thor's specs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pacificcyclist View Post
Single speed is not a limitation; it's what people want if they only plan to bike in the city and utilize transit which is what Brompton was conceived to do.

Exactly. The Brompton was conceived for "last mile" multimodal transit and many of Brompton's customers pay thousands of dollars for singlespeed Bromptons for this purpose.


Those are the Bromptons that this bike might "kill" (ie the singlespeed titanium Bromptons that cost twice as much and are more fiddly to fold). As for the other Brompton models, I doubt this will be the only model Dahon is going to release featuring this innovative new folding design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
Although I would include the time to lower the saddle to the frame in its folding time and the time needed to adjust the saddle to the correct height in the unfolding time.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDzt8VdGeNQ

I'm not entirely sure that you do really need to lower the saddle separately like you do with the Brompton because the Jifo's seat tube is telescoping and the bottom portion is linked with the rest of the folding mechanism...it might depend on how you achieve the initial fit adjustment. However I agree that this is a major flaw for most folders, including the Brompton (only ones I can think of that don't have this issue are the tikit and carry-me).


But you really have to try folding the Jifo for yourself because it's not like folding other bikes...like I said it's really more like opening a folding door because those rods just guide everything into place without any attention or skill required of the user.

Quote:
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16" wheeled Dahons have no stiffness advantage over bromptons, the handlepost, extended as far as it must be with such a low and short head tube, flexes as much as the Brompton does except being aluminium it's not such a lively, springy sort of flex. The felt increase in rigidity of the jifo will originate from the lack of rear suspension, which IMO is a massive disadvantage in a bike with such small wheels and such a short wheelbase.
I never liked the Brompton's rear suspension because it felt mushy and power robbing (not to mention squirmy handling when the entire rear end tries to fold over big bumps). You might be right about handlebar flex, but I'm not so sure about that either because the Brompton depends on the handlebars themselves for extra extension and narrow aluminum handlebar tubing tends to be rather flexy.
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Old 06-19-12, 01:51 PM   #18
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That aluminium single spar is going to crack away from the steering tube due to torsion induced work hardening. It is a common failure with Dahons and yet we all soldier on in denial of this design fault. This saddens me because the more successful folding designs there are out there the better.
care to explain common failure ..... maybe even show me ONE .......... what a load of BS
Thor

p.s yes even Dahon has the once in a year broken frame,and they have. So far I have been able to solve every single one of them under warranty. Even if the bike was used lets say a little harder than its supposed to, even if it was not the original owner, even even even ..... can you tell me ANY other company who would do the same ?
and without any big problems.
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Old 06-19-12, 01:59 PM   #19
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back to Jifo
it is a super small rear axle ...... and of course I have to fix that coaster brake stuff on the website ...lol
I do have the gearing right and all the oter stuff should be pretty accurate as well
stiffness is not only cause of a certain length of tube .... it can be handled with doing a lot of different design things ..
The Jifo is definitely not a flat out racer, where stiffness is important. Its not designed for that.
Its not a Brompton Killer and is not designed to take away from Brompton marketshare of 0.000092 %
Are you kidding .... these guys dont hate eachother, they all want to grow the folding market !!!!
Those poor excuse of fenders, need to go ... they are silly, worthless, and make the bike look cheap ......
The front needs a v brake same as the rear ...

The Jifo is not perfect ...... But it folds in a jiffy, folds super small, is light, has ONE very good brake on it, and if you pedal hard it goes like a rocket ....

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Old 06-19-12, 02:13 PM   #20
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.. planning a drone attack on Bromptons, chucky?
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Old 06-19-12, 04:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky View Post

This bike also has an extension seat post. So maybe you naysayers should give it a try before declaring how inferior it is based on brand name alone.

I don't base my opinions on brand name alone, I base them on FACTS. I have tried every folder that I have ever come across, in the 16" wheel size, Brompton is the ONLY one that has enough saddle to pedal range to fit me.

FWIW I currently own two Dahon Classic III. I can barely ride them by pulling the seat posts past the minimum mark. I only ride them fairly short distances. I have ridden a properly set up (for me) Brompton over 20 miles and see no problem with riding it much, much further if I chose. Dahon builds decent bikes for the price point, bu they don't build bikes to fit tall people with long legs like me. Brompton and Bike Friday do.

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Old 06-19-12, 05:29 PM   #22
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I can hear a distance cry from Jifo 16 -- Can't we all get along?!?
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Old 06-19-12, 05:58 PM   #23
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I wonder when the EEZZ is being released?
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Old 06-19-12, 09:55 PM   #24
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Is Jifo an original design from Dahon? I've found this on Japanese magazine from last year.


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Old 06-20-12, 04:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
I don't base my opinions on brand name alone, I base them on FACTS. I have tried every folder that I have ever come across, in the 16" wheel size, Brompton is the ONLY one that has enough saddle to pedal range to fit me.

Have you tried the mezzo out of interest.
(Adding a sprung saddle can add up to 2 inchs leg to pedal when combined with cleat cycling shoes)
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