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  1. #1
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    WARNING for unserious business at Kinetics.org.uk

    Hi folding friends,

    I want to take this opportunity to issue a warning for a dealer that does not conduct serious online business.
    The store is located on these URL: s:
    http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/brompton.shtml
    http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/html/brompton.shtml

    I was willing to purchase the 8 speed conversion kit from them but they never delivered.

    Before I even placed the order I was in long conversation over email about how the conversion is done and the availability of the kit.
    Everything seemed OK and I placed my order and got a tracking id for the order on the site. And my VISA card was charged within seconds of me placing the order.

    But it was now the problem started. Kinetics was never able to produce a serious tracking id for the courier. After insisting in several mails I received a weird number which did not work to search for. I got in touch with Kinetics again and he claimed that the parcel had been returned to him, claiming that "they could not find my address". But this does not make sense; I live in the capitol Stockholm in Sweden, on a very central address. And any serious courier would not have ANY problem finding my address. And with today’s hi-tech tools there should not be any problem searching for an address.
    Kinetics claimed later that he once more sent the parcel, now with another courier. And once more Kinetics was not able to produce a tracking code, which is very weird.
    I got in touch again with Kinetics and I said I wanted to whole purchase to be canceled, and my money returned to my VISA card.
    But I did not get any help for this. Instead Kinetics once more claimed that the address could not be found and the parcel was returned.

    All this took several months. Finally I got fed up with the delays and the false claims of sending the parcel, and I got in touch with my bank that started an investigation to return my money. I provided them with the whole email conversion with Kinetics.
    My Bank returned my money to my VISA card.


    So in conclusion, do not purchase anything from Kinetics. They are not serious. He is running a scam online.
    He claims he have a store where you can visit to, maybe this is a better choice, than you can make sure you get your stuff directly.


    Regards
    Michael

  2. #2
    Formerly Known as Newbie Juha's Avatar
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    Cheers Michael och välkommen till Bike Forums!

    Quite an experience you had there. I suppose you checked and double-checked the delivery address with Kinetics once problems started? I've noticed our street address system here in Finland doesn't always play nice with web site ordering systems. If needed, I've always been able to set things right with a few e-mails though. Good thing you managed to dispute the charge with you CC company.

    --J
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  3. #3
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    Good to know, sorry you got ripped off.

    I had someone rip me off on Ebay for $700, but luckily he ripped off many people, so I didn't have to battle it and Paypal gave us our money back.
    One time I sold something off Ebay, shipped it to France, and a month later it came back damaged.
    It just didn't get delivered even though I copied and pasted the address the buyer gave me.
    Odd thing is the buyer never contacted me about it.

    You might be the victim of bad luck.
    Some employees will break or lose things just to spite their management, and maybe that's what happened.
    It is possible the courier was high on drugs or was planning to quit soon so he just didn't deliver your package.
    I mean this Kinetics website has been around since 1995.
    If the guy was a consistent scammer, someone would have hacked his site by now and brought it down.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juha View Post
    Cheers Michael och välkommen till Bike Forums!

    Quite an experience you had there. I suppose you checked and double-checked the delivery address with Kinetics once problems started? I've noticed our street address system here in Finland doesn't always play nice with web site ordering systems. If needed, I've always been able to set things right with a few e-mails though. Good thing you managed to dispute the charge with you CC company.

    --J
    Yes the address would have worked according to what I gave. I also provided it through email afterwards.
    He asked me if I entered the address correct. And yes I had, since I am willing get the thing I order :-) that is the whole point. :-)
    I also provided my cell phone number, which I told Kinetics to provide to the courier. But no, not one sound from any courier.
    Maybe because they where all imaginary fantasy items :-)

    I have ordered thing from UK, Germany, Japan, Hongkong; all with no problem and polite speedy service.

    I see Kinetics name mentioned sometimes in different forums so I wanted to share my experience with others.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttakata73 View Post
    Good to know, sorry you got ripped off.

    I had someone rip me off on Ebay for $700, but luckily he ripped off many people, so I didn't have to battle it and Paypal gave us our money back.
    One time I sold something off Ebay, shipped it to France, and a month later it came back damaged.
    It just didn't get delivered even though I copied and pasted the address the buyer gave me.
    Odd thing is the buyer never contacted me about it.

    You might be the victim of bad luck.
    Some employees will break or lose things just to spite their management, and maybe that's what happened.
    It is possible the courier was high on drugs or was planning to quit soon so he just didn't deliver your package.
    I mean this Kinetics website has been around since 1995.
    If the guy was a consistent scammer, someone would have hacked his site by now and brought it down.

    It is weird a buyer entering an address that does not work. Sounds stupid :-) the whole idea is to get the stuff you pay for.

    I'm sorry to hear you had problems with ebay, luckily it worked out well.

    I was in contact with Kinetics long ago already but that time I did not order.
    Apparently Kinetics is a one man company, a bike shop with some internet business on the side. But I don't mind that.
    I mean if he had problems finding the time or the parts I would have accepted waited. But he always claimed he had the parts and he just had sent them.


    Maybe the Kinetics internet business is not so big at that site, so there is not much experience from other customers.
    I have tried to find anything about Kinetics in other forums but I have never read anything about a customer bying something.
    The only thing I have seen are user posting the link, as if they just googled it, and never used it them self.

  6. #6
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    I thought the store was located in Glasgow , Scotland. and they also have a website.

    I see the street address and a telephone number to make a 'old fashioned' Voice call .

    did you have them read back the address as written on the package,
    for errors in understanding?


    My Bank returned my money to my VISA card.
    so other than the PIA, no monetary loss ..
    Last edited by fietsbob; 06-28-12 at 09:37 AM.

  7. #7
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    Ben, at Kinetics is well respected in the UK, I've had a few spares from him - sounds like a comms problem to me - agreed, call him

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Human_Amplifier View Post
    Ben, at Kinetics is well respected in the UK, I've had a few spares from him - sounds like a comms problem to me - agreed, call him
    Well he might be respected. But what happend, did happen. I have now opted for an other solution.

    I gave him several changes to fix the problem.
    I gave him my address both through order and several times in email, I also supplied my cell phone number to attach to the parcel so the courier could get in touch with me.
    I also asked him if there is a problem delivering, if the parts where delayed. But no everything was in place and sent. Always just sent when I complained.
    But even after all this he was not able to deliver. So I am not recomending him for anyone.

    No it was not a comm problem, it was "I keep the money but send no parcel"-problem. He had EVERY oportunity to make good, but choose not.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    I thought the store was located in Glasgow , Scotland. and they also have a website.

    I see the street address and a telephone number to make a 'old fashioned' Voice call .

    did you have them read back the address as written on the package,
    for errors in understanding?




    so other than the PIA, no monetary loss ..

    Well I question his professionalism and then he claimed to send houndreds of parcels every year. So I guess he knows his job. No need to call.
    He had just desided to keep the cash and the part to. :-)

    As I already said. If he had problems delivering because of lack of spare parts, I could have waited.
    But every time I got in touch, the parcel was just sent again. Which is weird. Secondly he was NEVER able to present a searchable parcel tracking number. Which is also wierd.

    Ofcourse everyone is free to have their own opinion, but I would not recomend buying anything from him.

  10. #10
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    I'm 1/3 of the way around the globe, from Greenwich Meridian,
    so was never thinking of it..

  11. #11
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    I'm 1/3 of the way around the globe, from Greenwich Meridian,
    so was never thinking of it..
    I am a good ways away from the Netherlands...but I still order stuff from them. They sell stuff I can't buy in the US...from Anywhere.

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  12. #12
    Raleigh20 PugFixie, Merc LittlePixel's Avatar
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    Ok so BF lost my first attempt at a reply so I'm having to type it again; Long story short - I've dealt with Ben at Kinetics many times and he's always been great, even when I had to organise a return/replacement on a part. It's sad your experience differs, but it's a shame you felt the need to come on to a public forum to bad-mouth and attempt to blacklist a genuine and honest one-man business. Perhaps you should have just called him on the phone?

  13. #13
    Raleigh20 PugFixie, Merc LittlePixel's Avatar
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    From Ben via twitter: "@Littlepixel ah, I remember him - the parcel bounced 3 times as he was never in for delivery, cost me about £100 in courier fees"

  14. #14
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Ah, .. note OP, if there is a signature required, they should not be just leaving it..
    W/O receipt signature.

    Buyers have asked for delivery at work, or have a shopkeeper-friend,
    take it in and hold it.
    for you to pick up later..

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittlePixel View Post
    From Ben via twitter: "@Littlepixel ah, I remember him - the parcel bounced 3 times as he was never in for delivery, cost me about £100 in courier fees"

    Quote Originally Posted by michael_b View Post
    ...I got in touch with Kinetics again and he claimed that the parcel had been returned to him, claiming that "they could not find my address".


    Seems to be two different versions of what happened.

  16. #16
    Senior Member kamtsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittlePixel View Post
    From Ben via twitter: "@Littlepixel ah, I remember him - the parcel bounced 3 times as he was never in for delivery, cost me about £100 in courier fees"
    It does not explain the lack of courier tracking number the OP mentioned.
    Happier than a camel on wednesday.

  17. #17
    New usename ThorUSA brakemeister's Avatar
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    tracking numbers from the US to foreign countries usually can only be tracked til the border from US mail..... I would assume that this would be similar to tracking numbers from Europe over here.... There is of course the fed ex UPS version, which would allow tracking all the way, but usually this also incurs the mch greater possibility to pay for clearing fees, customs etc. plus a much higher freight rate....

    cannot find address..... or nobody at home to sign for package,..... sounds vastly different to us normal logical thinking peeps ...
    but in the shipping game it actually can mean the same.... its just where some driver makes a mark on the return sticker ... barely a centimeter away for the next ... or the driver doesnt know the difference ....
    :-)

    Thor ...
    whose stuff always gets delivered and the one who never makes any mistakes
    ( yeah right ...lol )

  18. #18
    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    I have found that sometimes the tracking number only tell the story to the border of the country where I bought stuff. Then i need to go to the page of my country`s mail companys tracking site and take it from there.

    It can be a pain when you need to sign for stuff, especially when it is just a small parcel, like spokes for a wheel or similar that they could easily have placed in my mailbox.

    Also I am told by both DHL and UPS that my adress can not be found on the GPS so they all call and ask for directions. Just now I am waiting for a hub I bought that kind of disappeared and no word from the (private) seller..

    And yes, stuff from Thor always reached me no problems .
    °Empty drums make a lot of noice... (Old Hungarian proverb).

  19. #19
    Senior Member kamtsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    I have found that sometimes the tracking number only tell the story to the border of the country where I bought stuff. ....
    I would think that even with a wrong address, partial tracking, and non delivery the tracking number should still appear in a search on the carrier's site.

    Anyway, last year I considered once to buy a Brompton IHG upgrade from Kinetics but eventually did not because of the extra weight. He has some interesting mods and was responsive over few occasional emails. I would not worry about ordering from him in the future. Like every other merchant, if he will not deliver, I will get my money back from Visa as the OP did. And if there is a systematic problem (and I don't know if there is), they will eventually close his merchant account. The system works.
    Happier than a camel on wednesday.

  20. #20
    jur
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    I once ordered from Kinetics after reading good feedback about this person Ben... my order never materialised either. No emails about the order were ever answered. But in my case I don't think the card was charged, although it certainly looked like an order was placed and the card was charged. Later when I checked my statements I found no trace of any charge. I was just totally ignored. I ended up assuming that my ISP domain might have been blocked and gave up. I didn't get the impression that it is a scam at all, merely comms problems.
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    jur
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittlePixel View Post
    From Ben via twitter: "@Littlepixel ah, I remember him - the parcel bounced 3 times as he was never in for delivery, cost me about £100 in courier fees"
    This actually sounds insincere to me. AFAIK, couriers don't return parcels to their point of origin at all. No, they will take it to their depot or a post office and leave a card. But shipping it all they way back when there is an address found?? No way.
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    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    This actually sounds insincere to me. AFAIK, couriers don't return parcels to their point of origin at all. No, they will take it to their depot or a post office and leave a card. But shipping it all they way back when there is an address found?? No way.
    Depends what you call couriers. I am just now waiting for a parcel from VO that was returned and now they are trying again. Second time it happened to me.
    °Empty drums make a lot of noice... (Old Hungarian proverb).

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    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamtsa View Post
    I would think that even with a wrong address, partial tracking, and non delivery the tracking number should still appear in a search on the carrier's site.
    Maybe you should read what I wrote:

    I have found that sometimes the tracking number only tell the story to the border of the country where I bought stuff. Then i need to go to the page of my country`s mail companys tracking site and take it from there.
    °Empty drums make a lot of noice... (Old Hungarian proverb).

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    Senior Member kamtsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    Maybe you should read what I wrote:

    I have found that sometimes the tracking number only tell the story to the border of the country where I bought stuff. Then i need to go to the page of my country`s mail companys tracking site and take it from there.
    Thanks for the clarification.
    Happier than a camel on wednesday.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael_b View Post
    Hi folding friends,

    I want to take this opportunity to issue a warning for a dealer that does not conduct serious online business.
    The store is located on these URL: s:
    http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/brompton.shtml
    http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/html/brompton.shtml

    I was willing to purchase the 8 speed conversion kit from them but they never delivered.

    Before I even placed the order I was in long conversation over email about how the conversion is done and the availability of the kit.
    Everything seemed OK and I placed my order and got a tracking id for the order on the site. And my VISA card was charged within seconds of me placing the order.

    But it was now the problem started. Kinetics was never able to produce a serious tracking id for the courier. After insisting in several mails I received a weird number which did not work to search for. I got in touch with Kinetics again and he claimed that the parcel had been returned to him, claiming that "they could not find my address". But this does not make sense; I live in the capitol Stockholm in Sweden, on a very central address. And any serious courier would not have ANY problem finding my address. And with today’s hi-tech tools there should not be any problem searching for an address.
    Kinetics claimed later that he once more sent the parcel, now with another courier. And once more Kinetics was not able to produce a tracking code, which is very weird.
    I got in touch again with Kinetics and I said I wanted to whole purchase to be canceled, and my money returned to my VISA card.
    But I did not get any help for this. Instead Kinetics once more claimed that the address could not be found and the parcel was returned.

    All this took several months. Finally I got fed up with the delays and the false claims of sending the parcel, and I got in touch with my bank that started an investigation to return my money. I provided them with the whole email conversion with Kinetics.
    My Bank returned my money to my VISA card.


    So in conclusion, do not purchase anything from Kinetics. They are not serious. He is running a scam online.
    He claims he have a store where you can visit to, maybe this is a better choice, than you can make sure you get your stuff directly.


    Regards
    Michael
    This is what happened when logistics distribution company failed in their process to deliver an item to an address that they can not verify the recipient. Most logistics distribution company can effectively deliver from 1 business address to another business address; preferably a warehouse or distribution center. Reason for this is that, a lot of major companies are now employing 3PL or TPL as their warehouse, packaging and distribution. Companies that do this are UPS, Fedex, Ceva Logistics, etc and they are essentially doing the storing, packaging and delivery either to the end customer or businesses. For a typical small business, the courier is doing the distribution and delivery of the product to you. In regards to the seller, he might not have access to the tracking number if the item is sent through different countries. The frustrating part is that, and it happens a lot in our business too, things like this happens a few times. The problem is with the domestic courier the main courier uses to hand off the package to for final end point delivery. Due to cost cutting measures, a lot of these hand offs are sometimes fed to contracting couriers. Good luck in getting that tracking number. The best way to ensure you get your stuff delivered pronto is to utilize one of the largest couriers that you know you can track easily. Problem is that they may not provide the best discounts to the small business owners. Sometimes, these business owners would pay more to re-deliver the items back to the customer in the attempt to complete the delivery. Sometimes the address and the person is difficult to find that these couriers would simply give up and return the package back to the sender. I was told that since the Youtube debut of those Fedex and UPS drivers who simply threw the packages right at people's front yard when they're not home; now their policies are now more strict! Judging from what I read thus far, this was what the seller was doing out of his pocket. The meaning of returning to the sender is that, it goes back to the distribution warehouse of this 3PL if the company uses them. For example; x company signed an agreement with UPS to store their computer parts in the UPS warehouse (mega mega huge) and a sale happens. The computer part then get packaged and shipped out of UPS warehouse and not from x company. When the delivery failed, the item then goes back to the UPS warehouse not x company. Then x-company can opt to have the item delivered to their x warehouse and then opt for a different courier to have it shipped out. A lot of companies are now using this 3PL arrangement. It's not uncommon for an Asian company to have their products housed in a Canadian 3PL warehouse and then get mainly shipped to the states! UPS and Fedex do all the brokerage stuff.

    One the fallacies most people think is that well I live in a pretty known area so the couriers can find me easily. Couriers deliver to thousands of different addresses every day and sometimes they just can't find yours. To assist couriers in delivering the packages successfully is to simply deliver the package to your workplace or your own post office box. I know some companies have policies against personal mail delivery, but if you are allowed to, then this is your best choice. Most couriers know the addresses of the main businesses in your area and can deliver successfully all the time. I have a personal mailbox that I use to re-direct packages to and I find that the couriers from all over the world can find this place.

    I think he was sincere in trying to get the parts delivered to you out of his own pocket but failed. However, it's rather unusual not to refund the money to you when he clearly admitted on another forum that he couldn't deliver the package multiple times. As an honest businessman running a business in this tough economic environment, it's wise just to cut the loses and move on. Now the customer had to resort in posting his poor experience on this forum for all to see.
    Last edited by pacificcyclist; 06-30-12 at 04:59 PM.
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