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  1. #1
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    A very unpleasent experience with Origami Bicycle Company's folding bikes

    The matter has been resolved after the discussion on this forum; It took ~2 months to fully resolve the issue, and now the original S&H has been refunded. I want to thank everyone on the forum for their input!

    If you're new to this post and don't feel like reading all of the posts, here's the gist:

    I ordered two Origami bikes and returned them due to quality issues, which I believe merits a full return, including shipping and handling both ways. At first, only the cost of the bikes and the return S&H were refunded, but after some communications with the the owner, I have been given a refund of the original S&H.
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    Last edited by kyte; 06-16-13 at 03:55 PM. Reason: matter resolved

  2. #2
    jur
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    Personally I think it is reasonable not to refund original shipping. If you went to a store, bought something, unboxed it and after finding some defects, took it back to the store for a refund, would you get your car's running costs refunded as well? What you do when ordering something online is take part in the "gamble" of whether you will be completely happy. The shipping cost is never part of the refund deal. It is your risk.

    The rusting parts - you have my sympathy, but I also point out that rust always happens, it is just a question of time. It would seem those bikes sat in storage for perhaps a longer time than usual, in a moister place than usual. They are built in China so my guess is that is where they are stored as well. China is a bad place to store anything at all. So that little bracket and the screws etc will rust, period. They just started showing that rust a little earlier than what you wanted and that is a bit unfortunate. But yes, even real top of th line componentry often have plated steel fasteners which will rust after a while. The only way to prevent that is to use stainless fasteners, and that is true premium.

    As for premium parts, perhaps your expectation that top of the line parts are installed on an entry-level bike are unrealistic. It is a pity that stainless spokes aren't used though. That is surprising. Plated steel spokes are used on the bottom dweller bikes only.

    In this life one needs to make adjustments to ones expectations. Or you will always end up disappointed.

  3. #3
    Senior Member smallwheeler's Avatar
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Pinigis's Avatar
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    I cannot explain the minor corrosion, and we could not find other examples in our inventory. We did refund the full cost of the bikes and even went above and beyond and paid the return shipping.

    Our Crane 7 represents many improvements in components and we will continue to make improvements thanks to customer feedback.

    Thanks for the feedback from everyone, it helps to solidify our future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    As for premium parts, perhaps your expectation that top of the line parts are installed on an entry-level bike are unrealistic. It is a pity that stainless spokes aren't used though. That is surprising. Plated steel spokes are used on the bottom dweller bikes only.

    In this life one needs to make adjustments to ones expectations. Or you will always end up disappointed.
    Yes, you are totally right, I really need to lower my expectation about Origami furthur. The thing is, it's already very low by now. I mean, rusting bikes are totally common that if you search it on google, you won't even found a single entry except my post.

    Also, please read my post, I said "no premium parts, as expected."

    I posted it on bikeforums before without mentioning Origami. See what's people's reactions are. They are astonished a bike could send out in that condition.

    Like I said, it could be easily detected by just LOOK at the bike before shipping. Is it too much to ask?
    (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-bought-online)

    There are always gonna be mistakes, it's how the seller deal with it that matters.
    Last edited by kyte; 05-18-13 at 10:06 PM.

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    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    A very unpleasent experience with kyte on folding bikes, and you are not willing to tell us your full name- the peopel behind Origami is.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyte View Post
    Yes, you are totally right, I really need to lower my expectation about Origami furthur. The thing is, it's already very low by now. I mean, rusting bikes are totally common that if you search it on google, you won't even found a single entry except my post.

    Also, please read my post, I said "no premium parts, as expected."

    I posted it on bikeforums before without mentioning Origami. See what's people's reactions are. They are astonished a bike could send out in that condition.

    Like I said, it could be easily detected by just LOOK at the bike before shipping. Is it too much to ask?
    (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-bought-online)

    There are always gonna be mistakes, it's how the seller deal with it that matters.
    You posted it without mentioning origami but you did not tell it was a folder. Folders are in general more expensive than "regular bikes".

    Also, again and again I am baffeled as to what peopel expect to get for almost no money at all. Are YOU able to have (fair quality) bikes made in China, transport them to the west, have a person (who is payed a salary he can feed his family from) tune the bike up and then send it to you?

    We have just seen a chlotes factory collapse in Bangladesh, more than one thousand dead. Shoe factory collapsed, plenty peopel died. Two fires in chlotes factorys just the latest few days, peopel die. Three suicides in the Foxconn factory in China in three weeks (selling components to apple among others). Do you read the news at all? Where do you think all the cheap stuff comes from??

    Go back and read what peopel care about when asking what bike to buy, it is price, price and price. Then they complain about paying $65 for a bikeshop (trying to run a buisness in the US of A) to tune the bike up. And they are not shy to tell us about it.

    "If it sounds too good to be true it probably is". If you really need a bike and have no money get a second hand one and learn how to repair it OR exchange favours with a friend who can. We buy stuff we do not need and expect it for free. We have no respect for the limited resources on earth and no respect for other peopels life or health.
    Last edited by badmother; 05-18-13 at 11:35 PM. Reason: mad.
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  7. #7
    Portable Audio/Bike Lover tds101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyte View Post

    Like I said, it could be easily detected by just LOOK at the bike before shipping. Is it too much to ask?
    (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-bought-online)

    There are always gonna be mistakes, it's how the seller deal with it that matters.
    You do know that a bike comes in a sealed box most times, and it's prepackaged before the company ships. Origami wouldn't normally look in the box,...most company's wouldn't. But, they did go above & beyond to give you your $$$ back. You lost some S&H,...it happens. Origami made no profit,...now your just attempting to slander the company. Leave it alone already,...
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tds101 View Post
    You do know that a bike comes in a sealed box most times, and it's prepackaged before the company ships. Origami wouldn't normally look in the box,...most company's wouldn't. But, they did go above & beyond to give you your $$$ back. You lost some S&H,...it happens. Origami made no profit,...now your just attempting to slander the company. Leave it alone already,...
    I agree with the OP. He shouldn't have had to pay out any money at all as it was the company's fault, not his, that the bikes were sent out in a condition other than that which was agreed upon. Kyte is doing all of us a favour by exposing the shabby treatment he received from Origami Bicycles.

    Also, before you start throwing around legal terms like 'slander', perhaps you should at least have a look in the dictionary or on the internet and find out what they mean. Kyten is obviously guilty of neither. Dissatisfied customers have a perfect right to air their views in public.

    Slander and libel are both types of defamation, which refers to statements that damage another person's reputation. While there are similarities, each focuses on different types of defamation strategy. The primary difference between slander and libel is that libel is the written or otherwise printed public defamation of a person or entity, while slander is the spoken defamation of a person or entity. Slander can also include bodily gestures while libel can include published photographs.

    http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-...-and-libel.htm

  9. #9
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
    I cannot explain the minor corrosion, and we could not find other examples in our inventory. We did refund the full cost of the bikes and even went above and beyond and paid the return shipping.

    Our Crane 7 represents many improvements in components and we will continue to make improvements thanks to customer feedback.

    Thanks for the feedback from everyone, it helps to solidify our future.
    What about the original shipping fee, Mr Pinigis? Why should Kyte have to lose money on this deal? He trusted in you to deliver him two new bicycles and you failed miserably in this regard. If you continue to treat your customers in such a shabby fashion, I hardly think your future is as solid as you might imagine.

    By sending the man the $62.00 that he has lost, you would show that you have your customers' best interests at heart, and potential buyers who are reading this thread would feel safe about dealing with you.

    Please reconsider your actions.

  10. #10
    jur
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
    I cannot explain the minor corrosion, and we could not find other examples in our inventory. We did refund the full cost of the bikes and even went above and beyond and paid the return shipping.

    Our Crane 7 represents many improvements in components and we will continue to make improvements thanks to customer feedback.

    Thanks for the feedback from everyone, it helps to solidify our future.
    You would do well to add terms and conditions to your web site. When I clicked on those links it brought up a page with no conditions added yet, obviously an incomplete page.

  11. #11
    jur
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    What about the original shipping fee, Mr Pinigis? Why should Kyte have to lose money on this deal? He trusted in you to deliver him two new bicycles and you failed miserably in this regard. If you continue to treat your customers in such a shabby fashion, I hardly think your future is as solid as you might imagine.
    Failed miserably??

    You have failed miserably in being reasonable.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    Failed miserably??

    You have failed miserably in being reasonable.
    It depends on what you consider to be reasonable. I hardly think it is unreasonable to ask that the folks at Origami Bicycles crack open the box and give the bikes a quick inspection before shipping them, as our friend, Kyte, has suggested. If this problem with corrosion is uncommon, as Mr Pinigis claims, he shouldn't mind refunding the shipping costs in the few cases when it does occur. Sixty-two dollars seems like a small price to pay to assure customer satisfaction.

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    Senior Member bargainguy's Avatar
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    All companies make mistakes. It's how the company reacts to them that defines their mettle.

    If the business model for Origami means you can only order one online and can't see your bike at a brick-and-mortar store before you take delivery, it becomes imperative to up the customer service level. No one wants to order what they think is a shiny new bike and instead get a bunch of rust. I would be upset too.

    If the company had fully refunded the OP's shipping both ways and perhaps offered a substantial discount on another bike as means of compensation, we have a different ending, and possibly one that is quite beneficial for both parties should the OP want to take another chance. Or send back a bike to the OP that has been fully inspected before it goes out the door. Many ways to make this situation good.

  14. #14
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    +1 ^

    Sometimes one has to ask more than once for good customer service. My local bike shop disappointed me about a refund once, I knew I was correct and I went to the manufacter dierct instead and got more than a full refund. Still use same lbs as on whole good service.

    I suppose origirni and op will know what's been said in settling this matter.you did not entre in to a contract to take a chance on receiving a substandard bike, it should not have been a risk and seller is laible to sought out this issue.
    Possibly starting this thread so early after the dispute is not the best way of achiving good customer service. Its a two way issue for both parties to reflect on possibly?
    Last edited by bhkyte; 05-19-13 at 06:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    Personally I think it is reasonable not to refund original shipping. If you went to a store, bought something, unboxed it and after finding some defects, took it back to the store for a refund, would you get your car's running costs refunded as well? What you do when ordering something online is take part in the "gamble" of whether you will be completely happy. The shipping cost is never part of the refund deal. It is your risk.
    If they (Origami) blow it they have to refund price of the bike & shipping. Buyer has already added costs and hassle to ship it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    The rusting parts - you have my sympathy, but I also point out that rust always happens, it is just a question of time. It would seem those bikes sat in storage for perhaps a longer time than usual, in a moister place than usual. They are built in China so my guess is that is where they are stored as well. China is a bad place to store anything at all. So that little bracket and the screws etc will rust, period. They just started showing that rust a little earlier than what you wanted and that is a bit unfortunate. But yes, even real top of th line componentry often have plated steel fasteners which will rust after a while. The only way to prevent that is to use stainless fasteners, and that is true premium.
    What? He's buying a NEW bike. It's absolutely not the buyer's problem if "rust always happens...", if "....those bikes sat in storage for perhaps a longer time than usual...", if "...China is a bad place to store anything....".

    So if anybody gets a new bike with a dented or broken frame or whatever else it's normal because - let's see - "...it's only a matter of time until meteorites will fall down from the sky and hit the airplane, ship or truck transporting the goods..." or whatever other ludicrous reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    As for premium parts, perhaps your expectation that top of the line parts are installed on an entry-level bike are unrealistic. It is a pity that stainless spokes aren't used though. That is surprising. Plated steel spokes are used on the bottom dweller bikes only.

    In this life one needs to make adjustments to ones expectations. Or you will always end up disappointed.
    You're kidding, right? It's not the buyers problem if Origami displays shiny new bikes on their webiste and then ships rusted items. Period. The buyer's buying a NEW bike.




    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    Also, again and again I am baffeled as to what peopel expect to get for almost no money at all. Are YOU able to have (fair quality) bikes made in China, transport them to the west, have a person (who is payed a salary he can feed his family from) tune the bike up and then send it to you?

    "If it sounds too good to be true it probably is". If you really need a bike and have no money get a second hand one and learn how to repair it OR exchange favours with a friend who can. We buy stuff we do not need and expect it for free. We have no respect for the limited resources on earth and no respect for other peopels life or health.
    Huh..?? Origami bikes are about the same price as comparable Dahon entry level bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    We have just seen a chlotes factory collapse in Bangladesh, more than one thousand dead. Shoe factory collapsed, plenty peopel died. Two fires in chlotes factorys just the latest few days, peopel die. Three suicides in the Foxconn factory in China in three weeks (selling components to apple among others). Do you read the news at all? Where do you think all the cheap stuff comes from??
    What has this to do with rusty components on a NEW bike?

  16. #16
    Senior Member Pinigis's Avatar
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    You have failed to acknowledge that we offered several solutions to you concerns including replacement of the parts or a discount on the purchase price. We also paid the return shipping and issued a full refund within 48 hours of receipt of the returned bikes.

    I am proud of our customer service. We go far beyond What is customary. Just this week we sent replacement parts for damage that was caused by the bike owner and would not be covered under warranty. We even sent the tool to make the repair! (I hope that we get it back)

    Paul
    Last edited by Pinigis; 05-21-13 at 12:05 PM.

  17. #17
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    These bikes have a future because they are a good value at there price point and they have a real person who cares representing them here. As long as he can get satisfactory goods from the mfg.

    I imagine the distributor will now open boxes.

    But I must say that rust to that degree on a brand new bike would have made me feel like I had been screwed making future communication under a cloud.
    I would have accepted the offer of parts exchange , assuming no cost to buyer. Anything less than this and I am with the op.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Pinigis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebede View Post
    These bikes have a future because they are a good value at there price point and they have a real person who cares representing them here. As long as he can get satisfactory goods from the mfg.

    I imagine the distributor will now open boxes.

    But I must say that rust to that degree on a brand new bike would have made me feel like I had been screwed making future communication under a cloud.
    I would have accepted the offer of parts exchange , assuming no cost to buyer. Anything less than this and I am with the op.
    We open every box, adjust brake, adjust derailleurs, tightdn fittings and fasteners, then repackage every bike. That is why this rust is such a mystery to us. We have seen it on no other bikes and it was not present when the notes were shipped and it was not present when the bikes were returned. I have seen the same photo that you have, and it looks like there is something there, that's why we paid the return shipping and provided a full refund of the cost of the bikes. We still have the bikes in our shop because we cannot resell them because the fenders were damaged during their return because the bikes were not packaged properly by the buyer. We are out the cost of the return shipping and the value of two bikes.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Ekdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
    Anyway, I hope that [you] feel vindicated in your venting.
    You have the gall to make light of a customer who has received a faulty product from you. Unbelievable! And, to top things off, you use his real name in a public forum without--I'm sure--his permission.

    You should be doing everything possible to make things up to Kyte, who trusted in you as an honest businessman when he ordered not one but two bicycles from you. Send the man the $62.00 you owe him.

  20. #20
    Senior Member smallwheeler's Avatar
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    wow, pinigis, what a Dick move. the customer did in fact address all aspects of her dealings with you in her first thread. additionally, she steadfastly refused to name you out of respect for your position. it wasnt until she realized that she was going to be out of pocket due to no fault of her own that she started this thread. if you had simply given this person her money back, this thread wouldnt exist.

    google search "origami bikes" and the first result is your website and the second result is.. bikeforums..

    you may have a degree in engineering and a master's in business administration, but for a guy who uses social media marketing as his primary source of advertising, you certainly you would have benefited from taking psychology 101..

  21. #21
    Senior Member smallwheeler's Avatar
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    this is a very interesting thread because it represents a confluence of various topics that are cyclically discussed in this forum:

    * our collective obsession with "shiny newness"- our societies are increasingly filled with disposable goods.
    * our collective obsession with ever cheaper goods and the associated anxiety caused by the conundrum: the more cheap goods we buy, the less likely we will be able to afford anything else.
    * the (often ill-considered) idea of "value for money"- expecting something for nothing
    * "e-commerce"
    * social media marketing

    among others...





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    I want to be careful how I say this because I don't want this to be perceived as further dumping on someone who I believe is at least trying hard to succeed in a difficult situation, e.g. being a small time importer of folding bikes and trying to compete with such entrenched, high volume competitors such as Dahon, Tern, and many others, most especially with Dahon. I actually do not think it is possible for a small player such as this to compete in this market except to the point that the folding bike importer is offering a truly unique niche product that fills some unexploited part of the product range. For the record, I do not think that lower end folding bikes competing at the low end of the price range is such (an unexploited) niche, and I do not think that Origami has much chance of succeeding, long term, in competing with the likes of Dahon, Chinese direct ebay sellers, Amazon, and any number of other players for that business.

    The reasons for that opinion are in my view just plain obvious, everything from economies of scale to distribution costs and dealer network, trying to compete with these larger players for this business is like Sisyphus trying to push the ball uphill.

    My own experience with Origami was that I purchased a Fox a couple of months ago, whose folding latch did not work properly, and when I asked if I could be supplied with another one (parts worth perhaps 50 American cents, perhaps with a 25 cent spring in addition and I'm being generous here) I was told that there were none available. So much for the advantages of dealing with a "local" merchant based in the USA. It did not take me long to come to the conclusion that the basic bike itself was of low quality and that I did not want to ride it going forward, so I "dealt" with this problem by donating the bike to a charity thrift store after doing a half-assed repair myself on the folding latch.

    As to the original poster's comments about the condition of the bikes he/she received, not having seen them I'm not able to comment and I don't want to get into the pissing match over what the OP should have expected in the way of a remedy from this merchant. What I will comment on is that it is not uncommon for merchants and importers to hang around enthusiast forums, and for that presence to be interpreted by other forum participants as showing that the merchant is a cool person and since he is posting his posts in some way validates the forum's overall value, giving forum participants a warm and fuzzy feeling all over about the merchant and what he is selling. I have seen this many times on many enthusiast forums dealing with all manner of hobbies and interests.

    Bottom line, as a purchaser you are unlikely to get something for nothing from anyone, it is unlikely that a small player in the niche of cheap folding bikes can really compete effectively with large players such as Dahon, and if it was me and my dollars, I'd be going with a regular merchant selling more mainstream product, such as Thor, Brands Cycle, or quite a few other established players in this market.

    The above represents my opinion only and please accept it as being no more than that.
    Last edited by champignon; 05-19-13 at 10:17 AM. Reason: avoiding repetitious sentence structures :-)

  23. #23
    Senior Member DVC45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    You have the gall to make light of a customer who has received a faulty product from you. Unbelievable! And, to top things off, you use his real name in a public forum without--I'm sure--his permission.
    This is really bad, unprofessional attitude.

    Pinigis please edit your post and removed the OP's name.

    Kyte bought, and expects a new undamaged bike, Kyte did not get a new undamaged bike. Kyte wants a refund. Kyte should get a full refund. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    You have the gall to make light of a customer who has received a faulty product from you. Unbelievable! And, to top things off, you use his real name in a public forum without--I'm sure--his permission.

    You should be doing everything possible to make things up to Kyte, who trusted in you as an honest businessman when he ordered not one but two bicycles from you. Send the man the $62.00 you owe him.
    Thanks Ekdog! When I read the first few posts, I started to feel like I was living in an alternative universe. I mean, blame Chinese workers? Should lower my expectation?? I'm hiding my real name??? Oh, there is a fun one, disrespect of natural resources??? I know Origami company may have influence here, but to that extent?

    Glad that you bring back the reality I know, where people simply believe buyer shouldn't have to pay for a seller's mistake.
    Last edited by kyte; 05-19-13 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Add "disrespect of natural resources", too fun to miss

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    Quote Originally Posted by champignon View Post
    .....What I will comment on is that it is not uncommon for merchants and importers to hang around enthusiast forums, and for that presence to be interpreted by other forum participants as showing that the merchant is a cool person and since he is posting his posts in some way validates the forum's overall value, giving forum participants a warm and fuzzy feeling all over about the merchant and what he is selling. I have seen this many times on many enthusiast forums dealing with all manner of hobbies and interests.

    Bottom line, as a purchaser you are unlikely to get something for nothing from anyone, it is unlikely that a small player in the niche of cheap folding bikes can really compete effectively with large players such as Dahon, and if it was me and my dollars, I'd be going with a regular merchant selling more mainstream product, such as Thor, Brands Cycle, or quite a few other established players in this market.

    The above represents my opinion only and please accept it as being no more than that.
    Thanks for your input!
    I can't agree more about how they creates the warm and fuzzy feeling! My nice roommate who bought the bike with me actually FELT BAD when we have to return the bikes! It's a very effective way to discourage buyers to discuss the true quality issues, because, let's face it, who wants to blame a seemingly really nice guy??

    But there are quality issues, and those issues need to be discussed so other buyers knows what they can expect. Like I said, eventually, we, the buyers have to deal with all the communication, return or replacement.

    Also, I'm sorry you have to donate your Origami fox folding bike.
    Last edited by kyte; 05-19-13 at 01:06 PM. Reason: gramma

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