chaadster

Maybe Sreten's point has validity within the context of the OP's initial post, where it's clear he's making inquiries about stock 20er's capabilities on group rides. The replies would have been very different had the OP asked *how* to modify a 20er for group rides, right?

cplager

Since the OP even asked about recumbent folders, I don't see anything there that suggest he's only looking at stock low-end folders. Sreten likes to share his opinions, regardless of whatever else is going on around him.

BassNotBass

I see. so Bike Fridays, Moultons, heavily modified Raleigh Twenty's, mini-velos and Dahons are OK but a $200 Miami with a $15 freewheel is out of line? Gotcha, I will make note of that.

Alec E

Related.

My own question: why in hell would anyone want to go on a club ride?

badmother

Hmm. Lets try to change the direction this thread is taking and go back to BNB`s joke:

Want a spare? It`s yours if you want it. No visual wear, unisex model, no strings atatched:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/77836183@N08/9613670779/

smallwheeler

this thread reminds me of a thread a couple of months back wherein a troll claimed that schwalbe big apples were slow and heavy tires. that statement brought the heavyweight forum members (physicists, bike dealers, riders with 20+ years experience, etc.) out of the woodwork to explain in exhaustive mathematical detail why the troll was wrong. ultimately, the troll simply stated something to the effect of, " i don't know anything about all this technical stuff, but big apples are slow and heavy because i said so."
i strongly suspect that the ID "srenten" is being operated from a parent's basement somewhere near you by a group of 15 year old boys in skinny jeans who have drifted over from the "fixie" sub-forum for the express purpose of trolling a bunch of geezers on goofy bikes that fold. you may think i'm cynical, but actually, my suspicion that srenten is a troll asserts my faith in humanity. surely, he can't be as thick as all of his ridiculous posts suggest.

chaadster

No, I wasn't trying to suggest that, rather only to point out that, from another perspective, namely within the context of the OP, I could understand Sreten's points.

Yes, the dialogue strayed quite a bit into the various ways in which a 'group rideable' 20er could be constructed, but again, I think Sreten read-- as did I-- the OP as trying to understand the capabilities of standard, off-the-rack folders, evidenced by his comment, "Only a select few small wheeled bikes have gears (speed) that roughly matches a standard road bike. I'm talking 18 speeds and up. Can a 20 inch wheeled bike keep up in group rides?"

That, to me, is not the comment of someone who's aware of Capreo hubs, 60t chainrings, or 10t cogs, and if that's true, then I can understand Sreten's view that, dude, nobody is gonna jump on a LBS Tern or Craiglist Dahon and keep up with the typical club road ride. That opinion does not preclude modding said 20ers, your Miami, or any other 20er to do the duty.

Also, a reminder that Sreten also has at least one 20er, and is 'in the family,' so to speak. I don't think he was trying to dog or otherwise bad-mouth 20" wheels, frames, or bikes, rather just to point out that most are not constructed for fast road work.

That's my opinion on where he was coming from, at least, and you're of course in no way obliged to agree.

pacificcyclist

Someone who is able to be pushing 60T and Capreo hubs 9-28 cassettes IS NOT your normal 80% recreational rider group. He or she is at the top 20% cream of the crop rider. Someone in that capacity can concieve to ride any bike fast even in club rides. We have riders here who ride a fixie and be able to keep up with Cervelo R5 and Madone posers as well as someone who actually rode a Trek 520 in a triathlon and won against guys and gals riding Guru, Cervelo, Quintana Roo and Trek whatsoever project thingy. When you have a genetic predisposition to be able to push big gears with no effort at all, you can ride almost any bike fast!

Marketing department from any bike makers love people like that. They sell bikes ranging from Treks, Specialized, Cervelos, Gurus, Bromptons, Bike Friday, Dahons and what not. Why do you think makers sponsor pro riders of all kinds huh?!? Because the rest of the 80% group of riders are your so called "followers". The OP is a follower and he will believe what these pro riders or riders here will tell them, cause heh look if Mr. Super X rides a Bike Friday Pocket Rocket Pro or Air Friday and made good time or got first place in the PBP or any sanctioned competitiion; it's an indication that if Mr. Super X can do it so could I. In theory yes; but in practise however it is not unconditionally correct.

All I am hearing here is nothing more than glorifying some form personal reality here. If someone believes his Bike Friday rides just as fast as a road bike, then it is conceivable that someone else can make the same comment that Big Apples are slow and fat. It's the same as steel frame rides better than aluminum. Everyone is entitled to make a comment and observation. It's a free country and no one should be bullied into submission that his comment is beyond acceptance. That's up to the original poster to decide. He asked the question so he has the only right to discern.

As I said it all again, the 80% rider benefit with whatever bike that will make them ride on the road. And I think that's the point. I have seen some people modified their Cervelo R5 with a high riser stem and flat bars or the super expensive Project One Madone ($8000) with a mountain bike monkey bar and ride in our club. That's called self-expression and if they are happy with that, that's fine. To bully and ridicule people like that (we have plenty of those in our club) show immaturity, insecurity and lack of sensitivity among other club members or forum members here.

We can always all agree to disagree, but I think you should think back and see what your comments could contribute. Helpful or simply having an attitude.

We have riders here who are capable of keeping up with CAT 3 or 4 riders or even 1 or 2, but what is your point? If you simply feel that 20" wheels ride faster than 700c, prove it in sanctioned events. Some people did just that and I personally know them. They are modest, humble and not showy and bragging their success at all. Which begs the question then why some people here are egotistical and showy of their rider's prowness with bragging rights while hiding behind an I.P address and an avatar name.

Cheers.

badmother

Really? Are we talking of the U S of A or.?

pacificcyclist

U S of A = United in Spanking the Acts of bravado or military might?!? LOL

kungfuguy

Hi there! I'm the original poster. This thread has gone off the rail a bit. All the technical discussion is sorta fun. But I'm not a technical rider or into modding a bike. My reason for a folder was for short day trips. I just wanted to put it into the trunk and go! I also want to experience the group ride as well. However, the club around my home are all roadies. There aren't any casual riding clubs.

The Dahon anniversary or the Terge Verge are the type I'd want. Off the self bikes. Although they are over-priced! A small wheeled folding recumbent is something I'm also into. Like the TW Bent Cobra. I've done a some research and sitting on the fence right now.

I guess 20 inch wheels isn't going to get me into many clubs.

chaadster

Don't give up!

Most of the discussion here has been highly speculative, so I think you should get the bike you want, enjoy riding it, and keep looking around for the right club. Yes, you got some pushback from that one, but maybe there's another club that has a ride day specially designated for new riders or slower rides; mine does.

That kind of thing would be perfect, allowing you to see where your abilities and the bike's capabilities fit into the scheme of things. Who knows; in time you may find you're wanting to slap a bigger chainring on front, or maybe you'll be pleased with it just stock.

A recumbent can be more challenging to fit in, particularly if you live in a hilly area where climbs might leave you badly off-pace, but again, if it's what you want to ride, do it, and find the group later.

This may be your chance to form your own posse, too! There are regional forums here you can trawl for existing rides in your area, or to start one up yourself.

We're all small-wheel enthusiasts here, and despite the small disputes you saw in the replies, I'm sure we all agree they're a blast to ride and would delight to have another enthusiast in the fold!

rodar y rodar

Welcome back, glad you enjoyed the show

Keep looking and you might find that casual ride group. Or just talk up people you know from work or the neighborhood. Informal groups can be a lot of fun.

pacificcyclist

Aren't there any bicycle meetup group in your area? Meetup groups are a good alternative to roadie clubs cause they mostly promote recreational riding.

Here's a thing or two about roadie clubs. Some roadie clubs are run by humble and modest people that don't brag, humiliate and bully weaker riders. These people have a sincere desire to help weaker riders rise above their limitations and be as good and as fast as they could be and typically they are a NO-DROP group. Riding in a group environment like this can help improve your riding strength which it did for me 2 decades ago. Having said, there are groups that promote the snobbish attitude and can sometimes be very intimidating to recreational riders. It puts them off because rides are basically training rides. There are people in there who can be bullies. All they care about is whether they can put in their time for training, so basically these people will DROP you if you can't keep up leaving you basically alone on the road. No drop groups will also ride in a pace line drafting each other in turns and typically you need to be trained properly to ride in a peloton.

No Drop group benefits. The leader will usually look out for all the riders and maintain the group togetherness and will ride with a certain pace dictated by the level of the group. If one of the members of the group showed consistent lack of the ability to keep up or the ability to maintain in a formation (pace line), the leader will assertively tell the member to leave the group.

Drop group is basically similar to no drop except that the leader usually will talk to you first or might not before the ride of your expectation and liabilities per se. Meaning that, if you can't keep up and get dropped, you are on your own.

In order to keep up with these roadies on the road with your 20" wheeled bike, it must be properly fitted first to exact the maximum efficiency of your own body to the pedal. Next is when you will see that drop bars help you move faster not only because you are more aerodynamic efficient, but you are also able to leverage bigger gears due to the mechanical advantage of your upper torso and your arms anchoring on the lower drop bars hence creating a longer lever to the crank arms as opposed to sitting upright. Sitting upright reduces this length which then reduces the mechanical advantage.
In order to leverage this advantage, you must have good or exceptional hip flexibility without moving your butt sideways too much (pro riders butt stay relatively putt on the saddle with ischium bones planted on both wings of the saddle). Which also explains why there are different widths for the wings of the saddle itself. If a 20" wheeled bike is measured and tailored for your body with dropped bars, then 20" wheeled bikes can keep up with roadies. However, bikes like that isn't cheap. Bike Friday Pocket Rocket or the Pocket Rocket Pro has a price tag no cheaper than a Trek Madone, except with a Madone you get a carbon frame and a stiffer bottom bracket.

Having said that, a mortal recreational rider benefits from a bike that provides all the efficiency that he or she can get riding on a road. This is due to the fact that most of the top 20% riders had ridden bikes all their lives and trained their cardiovascular and muscular systems to be at their peak. You don't reach your peak until about 10 years of riding. If you look at Lance Armstrong during his early years, you'll see that he only reached his peak (sans his EPO injection) until after 10 years of racing and the bout of cancer. So the people you hear and given good advise from are people who had ridden bikes for a long time and been probably in races and trained with fast people. Their cardio and muscular development thus offset any deficiencies the bike might have and their fuel storage in both their liver and muscle glycogen are vastly bigger than a mortal recreational rider. Unless you have a prior sports of ultra-marathon running or cross country high intensity sports that you had been doing in your under belt, most people will benefit from a traditional road bike if you want to first develop your cardio and muscular systems so you can ride stronger and faster. That's why I suggest that you get a decent road bike. You don't need a fancy road bike. A Giant Defy series or even a Fuji Altamira low end series are slightly more upright road bikes that can be had no more expensive than a Tern Verge X10 or X20.

If you do want the folding advantage of the Tern Verge, please keep in mind that the verge series has a very upright geometry compared to a typical road bike with drop bars so unless you add your own drop bars to allow yourself to go down lower and leverage bigger gears, you will be using more strength than you need. The downfall to this is that, by pushing down bigger gears using your body weight as leverage, your hips will move sideways more and cause your knees to bend excessively inwards causing unnecessary knee pain and can also inflame the I.T band! All I am saying is that, a road bike is designed so you have the fitting for going fast while your body is in good efficiency. Some people with a gene predisposition don't seem to have all that pain and be able to push bigger gears and be able to be at their peak less than 10 years; with some less than even a few years. That's them and they are outliers and not you. If you want to wreck your body in the name of going fast, that's your choice really. All I am saying that, there is nothing wrong with riding a 20" wheel bike and going as fast as you want it to. However, the club people did tell you to get a road bike. When they tell you something of that and they judge who you are, you better believe it. Of course, it's your own choice to buy this bike because that's what you want. But other people don't share your choice and nor will they baby sit you on any club rides either. It's not fair for them to do so anyhow.

Cheers..

brakemeister

For somebody which has a Verge X 20 .... a Dahon Ani Replica.... a Custom MU 18... a 20th aniversary ltd edition superlight helios SL ... in stock ready to sell .... the OP could be a dream customer....
and yes it would be usual to say.... NO PROBLEM ( just go ahead and buy one of these from me )

BUT....
the question is loaded, as Pacific has explained to us in detail ( well done) what group rides could be.... and in those groups are subgroups which would make the determination, even more difficult.

If you see one of those group rides and havent ridden fast and for years itmakes not a hue of difference what bike you bring to the start line, you will be dropped and most likely bullied. Thats one reason I absolutely hate most of them. Bike shops have those, so they can sell more and more expensive bikes .... plain and simple.

Than it almost doesnt make any difference what bike you have.

However, if you are riding those and get good speed, and not being dropped, and you just put a little more effort into the whole thing ( and a couple years of agony ) than you might as well ride a high performance foldy ....

impossible with a standard low quality one, but again there are rides which are family orientated and free of bullies, and those you can obviously ride with any bike...

Best Thor

cplager

It looks like this bike can be bought with much bigger chainrings

meaning a much bigger geared bike.

Once you get the right gearing, it's going to depend on, well, you to keep up.

brakemeister

as much as I like recumbents.... I highly doubt that they will be welcome on any group ride.... just sayin

smallwheeler

the 5 second google search refutation. recumbent rider leads group ride:

badmother

See? Thor is right. He is not welcome, they are chasing him..

BruceMetras

That shot is just before the pack blows by him preparing for the ascent stage .. likely electric hub motor bikes would also not be welcome ..

smallwheeler

rodar y rodar

CPL, is it really available with 68/52/42? I don`t see if you quoted that from somebody else, but that`s wild! The old Rocket my buddy rides has a huge ring (62?) that looks pretty intimidating, but a 68 must look like an escapee from a lumber mill! I wonder if a standard FD can handle such a spread.

Also, TW is the same as ActionBent, isn`t it? I thought they disappeared, could be wrong.

BassNotBass

I've been intrigued by the seemingly generally accepted notion that recumbents aren't particularly good for climbing.

Granted I have limited experience with them but from the ones I've ridden I certainly felt that they were quicker/faster and utilized the rider's energy more efficiently in all conditions than a 'standard' or 'upright' bike, whether it be for ergonomic or aerodynamic reasons or both. For instance, from personal experiences the acts of either climbing or sprinting while riding a 'bent seemed to be quicker and utilize less energy than if I were to get out of the saddle and stand on an upright bike. IMHO it seemed easier to use the backrest of a 'bent to push against for applying force to the pedals than standing up and supporting my weight to apply pressure to the pedals on an upright... basically the difference between exercising on a StairMaster rather than doing leg presses on a Universal... the former of which I dreaded and would kick my arse out of alignment on a regular basis back when I used to be masochistic ().

Could it be that an average rider can benefit, from what I perceive to be an efficiency advantage, of a recumbent and enable him/her to keep up with a faster group on the flats only to have that advantage relegate the rider to 'average' levels of what he/she could accomplish while riding an upright bike so that he/she no longer can keep up with the faster pack and hence have that result be wrongly perceived as an inefficiency of the bike rather than just a mere relegation of the rider to a level he/she would be at if he/she were riding an upright in the first place?

Put in simple terms, if that 'bent rider were on an upright, would he even be ahead of the pack to begin?

On a side note, on the occasions where free-spinning allowed me to relax a little, I felt more refreshed sitting in the Barcalounger position of a 'bent than I did hunched over drops of an upright (even while sitting on a beloved Brooks) and I think that also goes a long way in justifying why speed and endurance events seem to be done on a 'bent when they are allowed.

But hey, that just may be me over thinking things.

1nterceptor

Ask what are the speed averages and mileage for the rides.
Measure your speed and distance. If the numbers match no
need to get another bike. Here's me catching up to a club
after they left me in the gas station while I fiddled with my
camera. My 16 inch wheeled Brompton passed and I think
was the only bike in the group that didn't walk the steep
climb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jea4lv48bDQ

BruceMetras

Naw, I think you're on the right track .. my good buddy switched because of a bad back.. he was fast on a DF and faster on his 'bent ... he would tell me some of the hills were a challenge and it took him a few months to get his leg muscles accustomed to the new power position.. he seems pretty content now .. I'll have to ask him if he still rides a pace line with his roadie group..