Folders and Amtrak advaice...or mabe just venting?
 

Hi Everyone,

Sorry this is so long....

I have been reading posts on this forum for years, but have not posted much myself. My background is in road racing, but I've started to commute on a bike lately as well. I am currently in a job that requires me to stay in a town downstate for part of the week and I just bought a folder in order to replace my car trips with a bike-Amtrak-bike trips. Would be a great change if it would work well. I have been having lots of fun upgrading/ getting to know my folder (although the lack of available parts and range of fit are a bit off-putting), but am not having great luck with Amtrak.

Amtak employees with whom I interact (especially conductors) do not know or believe the baggage policy that seems to indicate that folders can travel with passengers for free. I use the Lincoln Service Trains, which travel between Chicago and St. Louis and find that just about every trip I take I have to explain, lobby, convince even argue with the conductors or agents. I have read everything I can find on the net, have studied the baggage policy, and have discussed this with many conductors, ticket agents, and customer service people.

I wonder if others of you are having a tough time taking your folders on Amtrak trains as well - most of the stories I find are several years old? I have read and have been told over and over that taking a copy of the policy on the train is the thing to do, but lately I have been hearing from conductors that the policy does not explicitly state that there is no fee (even though the customer service people seem to think the policy indicates that there is no fee). The exact language is a bit vague when you really examine it.

Very curious about the thoughts, opinions, and experiences of others - especially if any of you share the same train line as me (though it seems that many on my line have never seen a folder before). I wonder if there is any kind of advocacy group working on bike train relations regarding folders specifically?

thanks for tolerating the rant and for any feedback

this is pretty much all you need- laminate it.
you are right that it doesnt explicitly state that folding bikes are free. but, it is implied as it clearly makes a distinction between folding bikes as "carry-on luggage" and reserved "ticketed" bicycles.

not ticketed = free.

http://www.cyclotour.com/images/Amtr...ike_Policy.jpg

I agree that a copy of the above notice should be sufficient and since it says that folding bicycles can be brought along as "carry-on baggage" there shouldn't be any question about an extra fee since carry-on baggage is free of charge. There's also this note on the Amtrak website under special items: "Folding bicycles under the dimensions of 34" x 15" x 48"/860 x 380 x 1120 mm will be allowed onboard all trains in lieu of a piece of baggage. They must be considered a true folding bicycle." I note that this indicates that the folder *will* count as one of the two allowed carry-ons whereas the notice above says it *will not* count. If possible I'd try to limit myself to only one other carry-on piece of baggage so that doesn't become an issue.

I haven't had this issue with Amtrak and our bike club regularly has a ride where we use Amtrak on the return - but it's on one of their trains that allows regular bikes and has hooks for them at the end of the cars. I've also used Amtrak without incident with my folder as carry-on on one of their other trains which doesn't allow regular bikes. Might be a question of how often the personnel encounter people traveling with bicycles on a particular route.

Thanks for the feedback Smallwheeler and Prathmann. It is very helpful to know a bit about how it has been going for others.

Smallwheeler, do we know where this document came from and how it got into the hands of the general public? It looks to be an internal memo? I have been hearing recently about something called the "Blue Book" that employees have which contains all policies. When I asked a conductor if I could get my hands on a copy he just laughed. I wonder if this document is pulled from that inner circle?

friend,

your initial inquiry has been addressed and a satisfactory solution has been provided including necessary documentation. any further inquiry is prohibited. related details are graded "eyes only" and are classified. any supplemental documentation should be considered redacted and non-existent.

your IP address has been logged.

thank you for your inquiry.

have a pleasant weekend.

http://thenightsky.org/images/information/pbb/pbb.jpg

customerservice.amtrak.com/standards/osu/OSU_07_15.pdf

Note the URL. Copy and paste into your browser (I tried adding the http:// to make the link clickable but ran into some weird problems...).

John

check.

I have found that if it is bagged in a nondescript duffle or cover-up that it is never questioned, it is a carry on bag.

Aaron :)

I never thought that there would be such a problem with Amtrak. I guess employees need to be brought up to speed, so to speak. I have met a few people where I bought my Brompton who say that they have never had an issue with airlines. They have always brought there Brommies on the plane and stored them in the overhead compartments with no problem/issues at all. I'm amazed that today this should be an issue with any such form of transportation.

It's really just the Chicago station agents and conductors. I used to ride from Champaign-Urbana to Chicago weekly (now live in SF Bay Area). The agents/conductors that were based in Chicago would tell me that I needed a bike ticket. I would always counter that the policy was that folding bikes were considered carry-on luggage. They would grimace and let me on the train without further fuss. I was always polite... as I got the sense that if I wasn't polite, I might not get on the train. Additionally, when I bothered to put the bike in it's cover/bag... I never got questioned about the bike.

Now that I live in California, things are very different. I've never once been asked about my folding bike on an Amtrak train. I hop on without issue... and if I do get asked about the bike it's because they genuinely want to know about the bike.

So... I don't know what's up with the Chicago based crews, but they have an issue with folding bikes. Maybe a folding bike rider kicked one of their puppies once?

ha! I'm going to tape a picture of several puppies on my bike and see if that works in Chicago

Totally jealous about the attitude you describe on the California trains

No conductor issues here in Maryland along the Northeast Corridor. Many folding-bike commuters here make use of Amtrak's cross-honoring policy so we're a frequent sight.

I just wish sleeping passengers wouldn't hang half their bodies into the aisle!

Another data point, from the Northwest...

Have ridden Amtrak to/from Seattle, Portland, Vancouver BC, with Bromptons nude, in Ikea Dimpa bag and in Brompton B-bag and never had an issue. I am quick to snag the lower space at the end of my coach which very nicely fits 2 Bromptons. Two will also fit on the first shelf up, but the bars which comprise the shelf are not as friendly to use.

My husband and I will be taking Amtrak from Albuquerque to LA tomorrow with our full size Montigue Navigator folding bikes. We have the soft cover bags for them. I am hoping to bring on the train as a carryon, they are under the dimensions shown for folding bikes.

I took my Birdy on my trip to Texas on Amtrak two years ago. They didn't give me any trouble with it.

According to my logs, I'm up to 2,169 trips on Amtrak's Keystone (between Philadelphia and Paoli, PA) with my folders over the last 6+ years. No issues since May 7, 2007!

Bring that rule , laminated as advised above, and bring a tape measure.

I notice Lalato that you are in the SF Bay Area and Sacramento. Those are served by the Capitol Corridor train of Amtrak, which has the following policy on bicycles (as of March 7, 2012): http://customerservice.amtrak.com/st.../OSU_12_13.pdf . The Capitol Corridor caters to commuters and has embraced bicycle commuting. Other areas may have their own local policy deviations from the general Amtrak bicycle and baggage rules.

I'm currently trying to plan a short bike camping trip, starting at the San Jose Amtrak Station, taking Capitol Corridor the Suisun/Fairfield station, and from there riding with my loaded bike to a state park 4.5 hours away for a 2-night self-supported bike camping trip. Amtrak doesn't make it easy to go this way, when you get down to the details. The rules allow me to take my bike on board, but it will count as 1 of the maximum 2 pieces of carry-on baggage. There is no way to check baggage on this train, even though the station is equipped for baggage checking on other routes that pass through. I guess the Capitol Corridor has no baggage cars, but it does have bike hanging areas on the lower level of passenger cars and limited space for other carry-ons. So, my challenge is how to get shelter, clothing, cooking, and sleeping gear into the limits imposed by the baggage rules, which only allow one bag of specified maximum size (similar to a large suitcase). I was able to do it once before when I rode with a folding bike and 1 duffle bag, but that didn't involve camping.

I wonder if anyone has had experience with this dilemma. Things come to mind: Will the conductor allow me to keep panniers on the bike and not count them as additional carry-on baggage? (My guess is that small bags like tool kits in frame bags will be ignored, but panniers may be counted as baggage, which would put me over the limit.) Can I take my sleeping bag as the "blanket" exception which isn't counted as carry-on baggage?

'never', 'no problems/issues at all' can be classified as solid dose of fantasy and/or wishful thinking.

While I don't have experience with this dilemma, I do have extensive experience with Capitol Corridor trains. While there is an overarching policy to limit bags, this policy is rarely enforced on Capitol Corridor trains. No one will be counting the number of bags you bring on board. Each car has a number of bike racks. These bike racks also double as luggage storage areas. Additionally, there are overhead compartments for storage of carry on items. Additionally, the first car's lower level is mostly bike rack/luggage.

If you avoid rush hour commuting times for your trip you shouldn't have any issue taking as much stuff as you want on the train.

I can't speak specifically to the Capitol Corridor, but when I traveled with a boxed bike, they were pretty clear that everything had to be removed. I left a few things on it, thinking it would go unnoticed, but there were comments about the weight (although people comment on the weight of my bike when there is no luggage on it). Of course if you're stowing your own bike, the issue will be more about what the mechanism is for securing the bike, how much weight it can take, and how much the bulk affects the ability of others to use the racks. I suspect you're right that small bags, or maybe empty panniers will be overlooked, but more than that might cause an issue.

What I did was bring a large, cloth duffle bag and a backpack. Two of my four panniers could be stuffed into the duffle, and the contents of the remaining two panniers were distributed between the duffle and the backpack, with a few items left in the mostly-empty panniers that remained on the bike. It was a tight fit, but I ended up with two carry-on bags that held all of my gear. I've tried to pare down my touring gear a little better, so I think I could improve on the situation next time. I also have a set of panniers that will snap together when off the bike. I've done that, and added a bungee and/or a belt to make it a more solid, compact package, and passed two panniers off as one carry on.

I'm surprised you've had trouble on Illinois trains. I regularly take my folder on the Illinois Zephyr and Carl Sandburg without any hassle. I often take the train to one station, bike to the next, and train back home (e.g., Macomb to Galesburg), as well as connect in Chicago to long distance trains. Once in a great while a newbie conductor will ask for my bike ticket. When I mention the magic word, s/he always moves on. One of the veteran conductors always asks me where I'm going and how many miles I'm riding. The best place to stash a folder, or full size bike for that matter, on Horizon coaches used in Illinois is in the open space or luggage rack at the ends of the car. Even the gate Nazis at Chicago Union Station have never hassled me. My wife and I are quite a sight pushing our way to the head of the line in Chicago with folders when they call for senior citizens.

I've long since quit carrying a print out of the policy found on the website. You must have encountered what is known as bicycle derangement syndrome.

I've also taken my folder on long distance trains to every part of the country. Only once, boarding the SW Chief in LA did a conductor try to give me a hard time as I was about to board. I simply stood there smiling, figuring it was his problem and he could figure out how to solve it. He finally had the sleeping car attendant put it on the ski locker.

The one problem I see is Viewliner sleepers which don't have community luggage racks; and there is not enough space in the room, especially when there is two of us, both with folders. A while back I was able to sneak them into a coach car with large community luggage racks. But I wouldn't want to try it with the greatly increased ridership the last few years.

Pacific Northwesterners can perhaps provide more information, but we had trouble fitting our folders into the small community luggage racks on a Cascade train between Portland and Seattle. We should have taken them to the baggage car.

I forget the details, but not too long ago a folder carrying passenger was hassled (perhaps on the Texas Eagle) and the story went viral as they say. Amtrak apologized profusely and publicly (and probably gave the passenger a generous voucher good for future travel) and sent out a bulletin reminding train personnel of the policy. Think of a manufacturing plant that doesn't have a manager or foreman on site, and you've got an Amtrak train.

http://biketrain.x10.mx/HENNEPIN/pics/iz.jpg
No that's not trash but a Dahon Speed P8 on board the Carl Sandburg en route to a tour of the Hennepin Canal Trail

http://biketrain.x10.mx/GAP/pics/kew1.jpg
Waiting for the Illinois Zephyr at the fancy new Kewanee, IL station on our way to a tour of the Great Allegheny Passage

http://biketrain.x10.mx/GAP/pics/cumSta.jpg
Waiting for the eastbound Capitol Limited at Cumberland, MD after biking the Great Allegheny Passage

http://biketrain.x10.mx/MOB/pics/handicap.jpg
On board the southbound City of New Orleans

http://biketrain.x10.mx/MOB/pics/brookhaven1.jpg
Ready to head to Mobile, AL after detraining from the City of New Orleans

http://biketrain.x10.mx/NY/pics/depew.jpg
All set to head out to Albany, NY on the Erie Canal Trail. Can you spot the odd ball?

http://biketrain.x10.mx/GAP/pics/pdx.jpg
Portland, OR Union Station

^^^^ Now you're talking! :thumb::thumb:

Aaron :)

Thanks for those ideas. However, the problem with a backpack is that you're stuck with it when you reassemble the bike with the panniers at your destination, so you have to carry it on the bike or on your back, neither of which are ideal unless you really are going to hike with the backpack at your destination. Capitol Corridor doesn't have checked baggage for a boxed bike so by the rules you can only bring 2 carry-ons (the bike and one bag, plus some un-counted items including a blanket, purse, and digital devices). Mounting a large backpack on a bike is going to be difficult, especially with all of the belts and straps backpacks typically have. Travel backpacks that are sleek with pockets to hide away the shoulder straps don't typically have frames that would support the bag being mounted like a pannier. Maybe the conductors are more lenient on the Capitol Corridor than the rules specify, but I'm not comfortable going to the station packed with extra baggage on that assumption. I'm thinking about using a large soft-side travel bag (within Amtrak dimensions) that has telescoping handles and wheels, removing the metal handle system, adding some aluminum strips attached to the plastic wheel plate, bolting mounting hooks on the strips at a good level for hanging the bag vertically like a pannier, wheels down. I'd wheel the entire packed bike through the station to the platform, remove the bag, roll or carry the bike and bag onto the passenger car and stow them in the luggage rack. Inside the bag I'd also have a pannier that could be mounted to distribute the load at my destination, leaving the top portion of the big bag for storage of my light-weight personal carry-on items that didn't get counted as baggage ("blanket" sleeping bag, small tote bag for personal items, digital devices, etc. as defined in the general baggage policy of Amtrak). I once tried to ride with an entire large duffel bag bungeed to the top of my rack, but the bike was so unstable I had to use panniers to ride to the station and then pack them in the duffel, but this left me with a duffel to pack around at the destination, so I'm thinking of creating a mountable duffel as I described. The bag's wheels would add a little extra weight, but they would let me maneuver the bag when off the bike, on train and at destination. On my one prior trip with folder and duffel, the huge heavy duffle was hard to handle even when slung over my shoulder with a shoulder strap, going through bus aisles and such.

Thanks. When I rode Capitol Corridor from San Jose to Davis, the car's lower level had 2 toilets, an alcove for vertically hanging 3 bikes (or conductor could raise a shelf and make it entirely baggage storage), 2 baggage alcoves, a wheel-chair seating area, a couple of single-width seats, and some tables with chairs. I didn't look at the first car.

You are correct. You end up carrying your bag with you. I didn't have a problem with this because the duffle folded up small enough to fit in with the rest of my gear. The backpack is also fairly light and frequently travels with me because I like to have one piece of luggage that's easy to carry off of the bike. One pannier generally holds all of the items that I'd like to have easy access to throughout the day. The backpack contains the items that I don't want to leave on the the bike unattended. Lock up the bike, grab the backpack, and go.
But what bag you use is not especially relevant. If you can find one that fits all your gear and folds up small enough to travel, you may be able to make it work. Yes, it's one extra thing to carry, and every item has to be evaluated when you're touring. When I took the duffle and backpack aboard, it did include all of my camping equipment, apart from a few items left on the bike, so it seems like a full touring load can be brought on a carry-on luggage. On the one hand, I did have two bags, not one, but on the other hand, I feel like I tend to carry more gear than many people. I hope, for an upcoming trip, to get all of my gear into one, airline-legal bag, although if I'm going by air, I'll have the option letting a little spill over into a carry on. But really, getting all my gear into one bag would be beneficial all around.

But here's something that's not clear to me: I can see from Amtrak's bike/baggage policies that taking a bike as checked luggage will count against your checked baggage allowance, and taking a folding bike as a carry on will count as one of your carry on bags. But what I don't see is where taking advantage of roll-on bike service means that your bike counts as a carry on. Certainly when I've used the local bike solution, which allows an unboxed bike to be hung on the wall of the baggage car, I've had no indication that the bike counts against any limits. As far as I can tell, I could bring one, unboxed bike, two checked bags, and two carry on bags, as long as I was on a train with roll-on bike service. It may be that, as Lalato says, you can easily get away with bringing two bags with no one questioning you. If carrying a duffle complicates things too much, perhaps you could carry some straps, tie your panniers together into sets, and try to pass off each set as one carry on. I have certainly combined multiple items together, and, as long as the total package doesn't exceed the size limit, no one has questioned me.

My suggestion would be as follows...

At the start of the trip, put everything on the bike (panniers, luggage, etc). Board the bike storage car. This is either the first or last car (ask a conductor to be sure). The middle cars only have one storage well. You'll know it when you board the bike storage car. Lots of space there.

Once on the train, begin your unpacking ritual so that you can put your bike up. Contrary to popular belief, you do not have to have your bike completely stowed before the train starts moving. Sure, it's preferred, but it's not absolutely necessary. After your bike is stowed, place your "luggage" next to the bike, if it's not stable, use bungie to to tie it to the rack bars.

About 10 minutes before your stop, begin the reverse process. Pull your bike down off the rack, load it up and wait for your stop to arrive. When you arrive, hop off, without a care in the world... :D

Reading again the Amtrak bicycle policy, I think you are correct. The policy does not say that the roll-on full-size bicycle (on trains which provide bicycle racks for them) counts either as carry-on or as checked baggage. So I should still be able to bring 2 carry-on items onboard with a roll-on "full-size" bicycle. Notice that they say "full-size" for the roll-on service. I know that the bicycle rack in the car I rode on the Capitol Corridor had a hanging hook up where the front wheel of a full-size bicycle would be, and that the hook had no adjustment to lower it for a shorter bike wheelbase. So a 20" folding bike in unfolded state would dangle by the front wheel from that hook, not touching the floor. That may be a problem in securing the bike, which is perhaps why they are explicit about "full-size". (The policy says that you are responsible for bringing the appropriate straps to secure your bike. The rack I saw had a hook to hang the front wheel and a cable to lock the bike with your own lock but no securing straps.) So if you arrive at your station with your full-size bicycle and 2 carry-on bags on a route (or at a station) which does not provide checked baggage, and the bike racks are full, you are out of luck. The conductor has the right (and duty) to refuse your boarding with the bike. But if you plan for that and bring a folding bicycle with your 2 carry-on bags and the bike rack is full, thinking that you're being smart because you could fold the bike and stow it in the carry-on luggage rack, that would be your 3rd item of carry-on, which is prohibited, so you're out of luck. When I travel, I'd rather follow the restrictions than rely upon the chance that someone won't notice or will be lenient.

So what's the bottom line?
-- If you travel where you can or must reserve a space for your roll-on full-size bike, you do that and you can bring 2 carry-on items and (if checked baggage service is available at your origin and destination stations) 2 checked items. If you're taking this option, I would recommend that you verify the baggage limits on the phone with the ticket agent when you reserve the first time you travel that way.
-- If you travel where bike reservations are not available and checked baggage is not allowed (such as Capitol Corridor and routes not listed in the bicycle policy), to be sure you can board with your bike and all luggage, you need to bring a folding bike and only 1 carry-on baggage item (some small carried items being excepted of course).
-- If you travel where bike reservations are not available but roll-on bikes are allowed first-come-first-served and checked baggage service is provided, and you bring 2 carry-on baggage items, you should arrive at least 1 hour before scheduled departure time, check with a conductor about an available space for your bike in a roll-on bike rack, and if no space then go to baggage check, buy a box, fit your bike into the box, tape it with the package sealing tape you brought, check the bike and optionally other baggage, and board the train with your carry-on items, hopefully before the train departs without you.
-- If you travel where roll-on bikes are not allowed but checked baggage service is provided at your origin and destination, then plan to box the bike and check it and pay the bicycle fee ($10 plus $15 for the box). You could also check up to 1 other item without extra charge since you are allowed 2 checked items without extra charge but the bicycle box may count as one of them. (It's not clear whether you can pay for the bike and still check 2 more items for free since you paid for the bike as a 3rd item although not at the full checked baggage fee. See * below.) You can also provide your own box, such as one of those fancy re-usable bike shipping cases, but you're stuck with it at the destination. If you have a small enough folding bike, you might consider using a Bike Friday travel trailer/suitcase, which is a re-purposed hard-side suitcase that converts into a bike trailer, instead of buying the Amtrak cardboard box at each boarding station on a multi-station trip.

* -- The baggage policy says "Each passenger can check up to 4 bags - 2 free of charge and 2 for $20 per bag, each not to exceed 50 lbs. (23 kg), 75 linear inches (length + width + height)."

Consult the Amtrak bicycle policy for the list of routes which provide for roll-on bicycles and which routes require reservations or not. It's not clear whether you actually are allowed to reserve a space on routes where not required to do so, which of course would be best if possible. You also need to consult the list of stations to see if yours provide for checked baggage. And if your trip involves an Amtrak Thruway bus, you need to check with that particular bus company to determine if your bicycle is allowed in the under-bus storage area and whether it must be boxed.

There, now, wasn't that simple?!

Even among "full size" bicycles you get variation in wheelbases, so I can't imagine that every bike would hit the floor, and I've ridden some small-wheeled bikes with wheelbases to rival my full sized touring bike, so it might be worth asking around to see if there's really any reason to worry that your bike might pose a problem.

Of course space considerations are always a concern, and it might also be a good idea to figure out how likely the route is to be at capacity for roll on service. The regional forums might be the best source of that information.

I agree that the best, catch-all, scenario is to show up with all your gear in one carry-on-legal bag and one carry-on-legal folding bike. The problem is getting your gear to fit into one bag. If you can do that, you'll be in great shape. That's a goal of mine, as well, because is really opens up your options for travel. I am right now trying to set up a folding bike that can fit in a suitcase along with a duffle of all my gear along with the towing parts needed to tow the suitcase. Then I can do it all Bike Friday-style and build my bike from suitcase which I then fill with the rest of my gear. We'll see how it goes.

But for you, if getting your gear into one bag is unlikely to work, then you're back to using roll-on service and two bags. In that scenario, apart from the possibility of there being problems with your bike being too small for their set-up, your situation might not differ from a non-folding bike traveler. So if you really want to collect all possible data and feedback, you might ask the question on the Touring section.

Here's a video showing the Bike Friday travel trailer, which is a suitcase containing the extra parts to convert it into a bike trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwStL94Xudo . The first half of the video shows re-assembling a Bike Friday Tikit that was transported in the suitcase, and the second half shows converting the suitcase into a trailer for carrying the carry-on bags. The outer dimensions of the Bike Friday suitcase meet the 62 linear inches maximum of airlines, but since the length is over 28" it doesn't meet the Amtrak carry-on restriction. It could be checked as baggage on Amtrak since Amtrak's lineal maximum is 75" without oversize charge. Bike Friday sells just the trailer kit (regular and heavy-duty models) so you could provide your own suitcase and adapt it to the kit, assuming the parts would fit in your suitcase: https://store.bikefriday.com/product...roducts_id=972. The longest piece is the towing arm, which might have to be modified into a 2-piece with coupling to fit a shorter suitcase.

Here's a video showing a home-made suitcase trailer with a Brompton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCs1tkdQA3E .