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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    Write a catchy song or trashy novel and you can get copyright protection for over a century. Design something truly useful to humanity, and you currently get patent protection for ~20 years. (International laws vary a bit on this.) I personally think societies are rewarding the wrong behavior, but those are the rules of the game. Don't like it? Write bad novels instead of inventing useful things!
    Agreed. It makes practical sense, if not economic. If Pzifer discovers the cure for cancer after millions of man-hours and billions of dollars of research/testing, would it be fine for them to dictate the price for the next century? Yet on the other hand anyone with a mobile word processor and an active imagination could become the next billionaire JK Rowling, with their work protected for a century. Heck, the song "Happy Birthday" is still under copyright!

    tcs is right - patents encourage innovation in the sense that companies must continue to evolve if they want to survive. There will always be less creative types who lag behind and pick up the pieces while the truly brilliant move on to greater things. We as consumers can only win with more competition and innovation on the marketplace.

    I'm not sure why smallwheeler is so annoyed about this. Why is he worried about the "poor" Brompton owners that will lose out because their bike dropped in value a little more?

    Bromptons has have many years to enjoy the fruits of their labor - and deservedly so. They've probably made tens/hundreds of millions from it, but the general lack of competition has let them keep the price out of the reach of the vast majority of cyclists. IMO many, MANY more people deserve to enjoy (and build upon) such amazing ideas.

  2. #27
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    I would buy one due to the standard axle width. If brompton made a standard axle width I would consider buying a new one rather than upgrading a bargin basement job.

    Might have missed this, but isn't brompton main claime not patent or copyright but intellectual property. That's what they claimed on ebay when I tried to sell my merc.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  3. #28
    Senior Member DVC45's Avatar
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    Folds like a Brompton, but lighter? Heck yes, I want one!

    Any chance of exporting this to the US?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    Bromptons has have many years to enjoy the fruits of their labor - and deservedly so. They've probably made tens/hundreds of millions from it, but the general lack of competition has let them keep the price out of the reach of the vast majority of cyclists. IMO many, MANY more people deserve to enjoy (and build upon) such amazing ideas.
    A Brompton clone if done right will cost just as much or slightly less than a Brompton. A Brompton clone if done better will cost more than a Brompton. The only company that in my opinion, could make a Brompton clone would be Bike Friday, Dahon or Tern. However, each of these companies have quality bikes and consider them BETTER than Brompton. Making your own folding bike is a matter of pride and those who do it well do not copy off others.

    Years ago, I spoke with Josh Hon when he worked at Dahon and he believed the Piccolo was better than Brompton. I owned both and I'm sorry to say, he was wrong. Yet, Dahon could copy the Brompton and make clones but the price would still be about the same. Dahon's 8 speed Curve with better components cost over $1,000 dollars! Keep in mind, this bike was manufactured in China but retailed $100.00 less than a new Brompton. Because of this, the 8 speed Curve did not sell well and was discontinued. When given between the choice of two folding bikes, the customer choose the one that folded slightly better from a company that would support it for years.

    Here's my advice. Years ago, forum members were writing how Brompton's days were numbered. The clones were on the way and would cut the price in half and increase quality. I got tired of waiting and purchased a Brompton at $1,100. 00 nearly twice the price when I first noticed them on the internet. (C3's were going for $600.00 years ago if you can believe that!)

    You can forget about the price of the Brompton going down and expect it to keep going up. The clones are not going to come so you better get a Brompton before the price goes up any further.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve View Post
    A Brompton clone if done right will cost just as much or slightly less than a Brompton. A Brompton clone if done better will cost more than a Brompton.
    Output now is some 35,000 bikes a year, which sell for a 33% margin. The bikes range in price from 800 to around 1,850. - WSJ 2012

    Right... because Bromptons only make a tiny margin off their manufacturing cost. lol. Don't forget they are also made in Britain so the costs will be a lot less competitive than China.

    Even if an avalanche of cheaper, similarly-made Chinese clones appeared, it would take months if not years before they gain sufficient market recognition to threaten Brompton. The rich folks are going to continue to enjoy their Bromptons, while the rest of the world can make do with the clones. Should poor families be denied the convenience and brilliance of the bike's superior fold?

    I won't pretend I'm an engineer, but you cannot tell me the fold can't possibly be replicated with cheaper materials. China has done this with virtually every other piece of technology... Bromptons would be an absolute cake-walk for the nation with the greatest number of cyclists in the world.
    Last edited by keyven; 02-05-14 at 02:48 AM.

  6. #31
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    Just out of curiosity, how does the price of the copy compare to the original, if comparably equipped? Can you please provide specific numbers rather than say the copy is XX cheaper? Thanks!

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDiamonDog View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how does the price of the copy compare to the original, if comparably equipped? Can you please provide specific numbers rather than say the copy is XX cheaper? Thanks!
    Well, the MIT V8 is going for S$1,250.

    * Model: MIT V8 *16" RD 8-SPEED HANDY FOLDING BIKE *
    * Specific feature descriptions:
    1. Mixture with hydraulic-forming front alloy frame/cr-moly rear triangle makes the frame solid and stronger.
    2. Cr-Moly Threadless fork and ahead stem provides stable and safe riding
    3. Sealed bearing ahead set makes smoother steering.
    4. Extra hanger for converting to a standard external derailleur system
    5. Alloy double- wall rims, enhance wheel solidness
    6. Anti-pucture 85psi high pressure tire (w/reflective stripe) make the bike both durable and safer
    7. Sealed bearing front hub, make low resistance during road riding
    8. Alloy chain tension guider, stronger than regular plastic tension guider
    9. Soft saddle
    10. Crank set: 52T Alloy
    11. R/Dearilleur: X4 SRAM 8 Speed
    12. Shifter Lever: SRAM grip shifter
    13. Inter routing brake/derailleur cables, makes the bike neat
    14. Integrated with luggage dragging device, portable while folded or unfolded. Handy for pushing
    15. Extremely compact while folded, save space when parking
    16. Weight: 10 KGS
    17. Folding Size: 66x36x66 cm (LxWxH)
    18. Color Options: Orange, Green and Black
    19. Optional accessories: front bag kit, bicycle carry bag

    Read more: http://www.pinoymtbiker.org/forum/sh...#ixzz2sVepqhT4


    I can't vouch for the quality of the materials, but it doesn't seem much worse than what Bromptons uses. According to reviews it folds slightly bigger, but is lighter (somewhat debatable) and easier to tweak/upgrade due to more non-proprietary parts.

    By comparison a base M6R which I enquired about a few weeks back starts at S$2,750 here. That includes EZ-wheels and every color combination except for Raw, and a 5-year warranty.
    Last edited by keyven; 02-05-14 at 09:06 PM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    [I][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]Should poor families be denied the convenience and brilliance of the bike's superior fold?
    The answer to your question is yes. Should the poor be denied the brilliance of an Alex Moulton or Lightspeed? The answer is yes because these are luxury items that cost alot of money and are out of reach of the poor. However, I don't want to see a Moulton costing $99.00 dollars because it would be nothing more than a department store bike.

    There are plenty of options out there for the poor if they want a folding bike. So what if the bike is slightly larger and doesn't fold as well. It's not the end of the world and there are plenty of members on the forum who consider the rear Brompton suspension the reason they purchased another bike.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    Well, the MIT V8 is going for S$1,250.

    By comparison an M6R which I enquired about a few weeks back starts at S$2,750 here. That includes EZ-wheels and every color combination except for Raw, and a 5-year warranty.
    We paid $1480 for our M6R with rear rack, EZ-Wheels and Marathon tires. Incidentally, we avoid alu frames on account of considerations that include upgradability - ease of damage to alu frames with add-ons and inability to add braze-ons.

  10. #35
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    Hmmm...Looks like 1 Singapore $ = 0.79 US $. I don't have perspective on Singapore currency but understand US $.

    So 2750 Brommie = 2173 US and 1250 MIT = 988 US.

    That 2173 US is very high for an M6R compared to prices elsewhere. For example 2_i got his, with rack and Marathons for $1480 in the US. Is there some type of prohibitive duty charged? I don't recall seeing such high prices for a non-ti Brompton in other parts of the world. It can't just be shipping cost to account for that difference.

    Where else besides Singapore can one purchase a MIT? What is the price with IGH?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve View Post
    The answer to your question is yes. Should the poor be denied the brilliance of an Alex Moulton or Lightspeed? The answer is yes because these are luxury items that cost alot of money and are out of reach of the poor. However, I don't want to see a Moulton costing $99.00 dollars because it would be nothing more than a department store bike.

    There are plenty of options out there for the poor if they want a folding bike. So what if the bike is slightly larger and doesn't fold as well. It's not the end of the world and there are plenty of members on the forum who consider the rear Brompton suspension the reason they purchased another bike.
    Wait, a fold mechanic is now a luxury item? No one can take away Brompton's storied history and reputation for quality. That's the prime advantage they have over any number of competitors.

    I can understand if the materials are rare and expensive, but an idea is an idea. Multiple companies working on improving a great concept is far better than any single company, no matter how brilliant it may be. You sound like a very impractical idealist.

    Many held up the first Apple iPhone as a prime example of what a focused company like Apple can accomplish, but in this era it's quite the opposite. Cheaply accessible Android and Windows Mobile has driven market adoption of smartphones to record levels, leading to cheaper technology leading to higher adoption rates leading to a more vibrant tech community leading to greater evolution.

    That might never have happened if Apple had somehow managed to patent touchscreens or prevent Android from taking off. Imagine most of us still using regular, number-padded mobiles while only the rich could afford super-premium-priced touchscreens. There would be far less apps on the App Store due to lower number of users and app designers, far less innovation as Apple sits comfortably in its walled garden.
    Last edited by keyven; 02-06-14 at 01:51 AM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDiamonDog View Post
    Hmmm...Looks like 1 Singapore $ = 0.79 US $. I don't have perspective on Singapore currency but understand US $.

    So 2750 Brommie = 2173 US and 1250 MIT = 988 US.

    That 2173 US is very high for an M6R compared to prices elsewhere. For example 2_i got his, with rack and Marathons for $1480 in the US. Is there some type of prohibitive duty charged? I don't recall seeing such high prices for a non-ti Brompton in other parts of the world. It can't just be shipping cost to account for that difference.

    Where else besides Singapore can one purchase a MIT? What is the price with IGH?
    I'm not sure the V8 comes with IGH. I do not know where else the bike is sold. The shop I quoted is very popular so the price should be pretty standard.

    http://www.diginexx.com/DIGINEXX/brompton.html

    This is a price listing for one of most popular shops in Singapore selling Bromptons. It's S$2,710 (my bad on the 2,750) according to this, which includes all non-raw color options, EZ-Wheels and a 5-year warranty.

    http://www.flyingfurniture.com.au/sh...custom-brommie

    Also, a random Aussie website quoted a price difference of a few hundred dollars for the exact same build - Given that the A$ (which has dropped quite significantly) was A$1=S$1.2 only 3 months back, it costs A$2,201 for an M6R (or S$2,641) on the site. Now it's even cheaper with the A$1=S$1.12 (S$2,465).

    All-in-all, maybe it's just in Asia Pacific that Brompton buyers get a raw deal? Comparing Singapore to NYCEWheels is about a ~$500 difference for a M3L (roughly 30% diff). Still, I might want to wait till I get back to Australia to buy I guess o.O;
    Last edited by keyven; 02-06-14 at 06:59 PM.

  13. #38
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    Based on 3,000km or more of rides with the V8, our friend who uses this bike has already given it passing marks. It was recently used in the 200km Audax ride.

    52T is just fine even with the 8-speed cogs. The 16" wheels make the pedaling lighter. In fact, for the strong rider, having a 32T cog may not be of use already. One can go for 32T and 9-speed and a 9-speed shifter if one wants to have a larger cog. This will probably set one back around P1,500-2,000, not counting the cost of the 9-speed chains, so unless it is a necessity, best not to go this route as the cost can go P2,500-P2,800 easily.

    The Audax 200km ride (Subic to Masinloc and back) drew out the need for a 55T or 56T crank if one wants to hit 35kph for long periods of time. 52t or 53t is not enough. But we are talking 30kph speeds and up. For city riding, A 50-53T is enough. Besides a 55/56T large crank isn't exactly cheap. You will also need to buy a shifter and FD.

    For bimodal city commuting, there really is no need to change from the stock setup of the V8. Stock, it does what it needs to do quite well. Only if one wants to make it lighter or make it faster for races and really long rides will you need to think of spending more for it.

    Read more: http://www.pinoymtbiker.org/forum/sh...#ixzz2sW5ebh8W


    Just a little more impressions about the V8
    Last edited by keyven; 02-06-14 at 01:34 AM.

  14. #39
    cpg
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    Got its own face book page, lots of photos, looks nice. I especially like the internal cable routing and the wheels.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...0048870&type=3
    Mezzo I4 (converted to dual drive), Whyte PRST-1, Trek 1200, Dahon Jack, Bickerton (work in progress)

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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    I'm not sure the V8 comes with IGH. I do not know where else the bike is sold. The shop I quoted is very popular so the price should be pretty standard.

    http://www.diginexx.com/DIGINEXX/brompton.html

    This is a price listing for one of most popular shops in Singapore selling Bromptons. It's S$2,710 (my bad on the 2,750) according to this, which includes non-raw color options, EZ-Wheels and a 5-year warranty.

    http://www.flyingfurniture.com.au/sh...custom-brommie

    Also, a random Aussie website quoted a price difference of a few hundred dollars for the exact same build - Given that the A$ (which has dropped quite significantly) was A$1=S$1.2 only 3 months back, it costs A$2,201 for an M6R (or S$2,641) on the site. Now it's even cheaper with the A$1=S$1.12 (S$2,465).

    All-in-all, maybe it's just in Asia Pacific that Brompton buyers get a raw deal? Comparing Singapore to NYCEWheels is about a ~$500 difference for a M3L (roughly 30% diff). Still, I might want to wait till I get back to Australia to buy I guess o.O;
    Would there be any issues with Singapore customs if I bought one and decided to sell it to you and ship it?

  16. #41
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    I very much doubt there would be a problem. Being a minuscule country, we rely on shipments for most of our goods, so how much threat could a (tiny) bike pose?

    That said, where do you live? I wonder where is the cheapest country in the world to get a Bromptons.
    Last edited by keyven; 02-06-14 at 07:00 PM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpg View Post
    Got its own face book page, lots of photos, looks nice. I especially like the internal cable routing and the wheels.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...0048870&type=3
    Yeah this shop - My Bike Shop Too - was where I went to try the bike. IMO it was a decent enough ride, not much different from a Brommie (an amateur's viewpoint, obviously). I like that the V8 gives people not willing to spend S$2,700+ a viable option.

    Still, I would buy a Bromptons for the additional value - and resale value - it offers.

  18. #43
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    I live in Seattle, but bought my bike in Portland. I just went to the Brompton site and saw that there is a dealer in Hawaii - I wonder if the price is similar or if a better deal can be had buying from Portland even though shipping is further. I believe that it is best to buy from the local dealer but in this case, if price so so much higher, why not go with the free market?

    On the other hand, a brompton in Singapore may not be such a good idea:

    http://blog.brompton.com/?p=550

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpg View Post
    Got its own face book page, lots of photos, looks nice. I especially like the internal cable routing and the wheels.

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...0048870&type=3

    WOW! I am impressed with MIT V8.

    -The quality of the welds and general construction looks very good!
    -The use of high quality industry standard componentry is a big plus in my book.
    -The MIT V8 Chrome moly rear triangle (drop outs in particular) look more substantial than its competitor.

    Lighter, Faster, Stronger...somebodys pushing design. I wish I could get one

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebede View Post
    WOW! I am impressed with MIT V8.

    -The quality of the welds and general construction looks very good!
    -The use of high quality industry standard componentry is a big plus in my book.
    -The MIT V8 Chrome moly rear triangle (drop outs in particular) look more substantial than its competitor.

    Lighter, Faster, Stronger...somebodys pushing design. I wish I could get one
    Agreed, its a good example of what Brompton should be offering, especially for the price they charge.
    Mezzo I4 (converted to dual drive), Whyte PRST-1, Trek 1200, Dahon Jack, Bickerton (work in progress)

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpg View Post
    Agreed, its a good example of what Brompton should be offering, especially for the price they charge.
    Personally, I find the money spent on Brompton to be an excellent expenditure. I was highly hesitant before the purchase, but the bike just wowed me. I am not sure any other bike related purchased delivered for me more value per price, this while I spend money rather selectively.

  22. #47
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    I'm assuming that there's significant flex in the frame since it's so narrow in the middle region; a very odd design choice it seems to me. Perhaps the styling of the main tube and cable routing is enough to get past any copyright issues.
    Incidently, the Brompton cable routing is thought through properly with regards to luggage.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleDiamonDog View Post
    I live in Seattle, but bought my bike in Portland. I just went to the Brompton site and saw that there is a dealer in Hawaii - I wonder if the price is similar or if a better deal can be had buying from Portland even though shipping is further. I believe that it is best to buy from the local dealer but in this case, if price so so much higher, why not go with the free market?

    On the other hand, a brompton in Singapore may not be such a good idea:

    http://blog.brompton.com/?p=550
    Hah, I thought that article was going to highlight the pointlessness of using a Brompton in Singapore or something.

    I agree. Seeing as I would likely be bringing it to Australia in 6 mths for a few years, it doesn't matter where I get it from. The international warranty backs that up, so it's just a matter of which country would be the cheapest to buy from - inclusive of shipping costs.

    Now I just need to confirm the color...

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebede View Post
    WOW! I am impressed with MIT V8.

    -The quality of the welds and general construction looks very good!
    -The use of high quality industry standard componentry is a big plus in my book.
    -The MIT V8 Chrome moly rear triangle (drop outs in particular) look more substantial than its competitor.

    Lighter, Faster, Stronger...somebodys pushing design. I wish I could get one
    Where there's a will there's away.

    Maybe you can buy a Brompton and send it to Keyven and he will buy a MIT and send it to you with $300.

    Win win...

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpg View Post
    Agreed, its a good example of what Brompton should be offering, especially for the price they charge.
    Makes you wonder how they stay in business...

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