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  1. #151
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    Brompton and Patents

    Patent and patent protection used to up to 17 years only. On an international summit in the 1980's, they have extended this. Now it is 20 years. Andrew Richie, the founder of Brompton started his prototype in the mid-70's and even if we stabilize his patents and say fast forward to 1986 to 1990 for the Brompton's design and other features, by 2010, for sure all of these are past deadline and the patent is open for the public to use. No doubt, before 2010, any patent B's may have filed have already expired.

    But patents are of different kinds. IP or Intellectual Property basically hinges on 3 main areas:

    1) Patents for inventions and and new processes, including plant
    2) Copyright - which covers artwork such as literature, poetry, songs, etc.
    3) Trade Mark - for those

    Copyright tend to last much longer than Patents. If I recall correctly, it is enforced as long as the author is alive and is perptuated and can be inherited by its heirs up to 75 years after the death of the author (or composer). I need to check on the details of Copyright as maybe I am wrong. Regardless, when it comes to bikes, we deal more with patents that copyright.

    So, whatever patent protection B's have are already expired. However, the B's also is a design and it can also be rightly be argued that some features of the B is design oriented. And in some lawsuits against the clone makers in the past 20 years, Brompton won on the basis of design copyright rather than the patent aspect of it. The use of the curve frame, M-bar, and cable routing are some of the things that a Netherland court found in favor of Brompton in one of the litigation it had against Neo bike, or the Flamingo in the ensuing years. The Brompton clones were called many names depending where they were sold, with Flamingo as the most well known to many.

    I will not go into each case or the history of the company and how in 1990's B's had tried to crack the Asian market by partnering with Taiwanese firms to make B's for the east asian market. What is important is this, betrayal and appropriation of their technolgy, has forced B's future decisions as to how they do things to be done in house.

    In reality, any good engineer can reverse engineer any Brompton bike.

    As far as MIT V8 and their IH version goes (BP01), the hydroformed frame, and the use of internal fame cable routing are some of its adjustments to avoid future litigation. The use of a aluminum and a different frame alone almost automatically removes any disputes in the matter. Because the patents have expired, and MIT has chosen to work around any other patent or design disputes, in selected countries, there shouldn't be any more problems with it.

    However, this deviation did cause implementation and performance problems. Noted in the 1st or 2nd gen in the Flamingos were the flexing of the stem-post, and some mismatch in some parts. Plus early B clones were not tightly made to exacting tolerances. Maybe this is what caused these problems in the first place.

    The MIT V8 and the BP01 (the IGH version) seems a big step up from the Flamingo. In our group, one had a Flamingo and the new V8. On the surface they are similar. But after the initial doppelganger shock, the differences and the better build and more fine finishing of the V8 is noticeable.

    -------
    Next -> How Brompton sees the world. Or an inside look at how Brompton's
    Philosophy and POV of bikes and bike making.

  2. #152
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    Frpm my experience brompton claim intellectual property rather than patents rights, when selling my merc on ebay.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caterpillar750 View Post

    The MIT V8 and the BP01 (the IGH version) seems a big step up from the Flamingo. In our group, one had a Flamingo and the new V8. On the surface they are similar. But after the initial doppelganger shock, the differences and the better build and more fine finishing of the V8 is noticeable.
    Hmm never heard of the BP01 but it sounds more interesting than the V8. It seems to cost exactly the same. Seeing as I don't intend to do much hills, I guess a low maintenance IGH might make more sense.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    Hmm never heard of the BP01 but it sounds more interesting than the V8. It seems to cost exactly the same. Seeing as I don't intend to do much hills, I guess a low maintenance IGH might make more sense.
    The BP01 model is really the old, or rather, the logical "clone" of the B's. The local distributor in the Philippines, talked with MIT to make them a non-IGH model. MIT wondered why Filipinos would want a non-IGH model, when the IGH version is better. But Filipinos didn't want the weight and the inability to service IGH as easily or readily compared to RD-Shifter technology. IGH also tends to cost more, so our local distributor convinced MIT to build an RD-shifter or non-IGH model. And that is the V8.

    To cut on the cost, they used only 8-speeds, used SRAM X4, and microshift shifter. But MIT did one better by providing a hook or a way to attach an FD to the frame without buying those expensive FD adaptors. This was a big change and it shows that MIT was listening to the needs of its customers.

    Also, the most common way to protect Intellectual Property is to patent an invention, or copyright it (if works of art or written, or music, literature, etc). You go to the courts and prove that your idea or invention was usurped by another by proving that you filed a patent to it first and had it accepted by the patent office. Without this, it is very difficult to establish who did it first, and what the extent of idea or work one is trying to protect or seek justice. A patent filing or a granted patent simply means that you have submitted pertinent technical details of what you want protected so that if another party did a similar thing, you can always point out that they use (if they indeed used) the same idea, design, device, process, etc.

  5. #155
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    MIT web site

    Here is the web site of MIT.

    bike, bicycles Bicycle ODM & OEM > Folding Bike

    Just scroll around to see the pictures and specs of each models they have.

    As you can see, they have the BP01 and the V8.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Winfried's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caterpillar750 View Post
    And this is not just the only bike that is very good coming from China. The Rhine Birdy, Rhine 2013, and the upcoming Crius 16" and 20" will put to shame many Dahon or Terns for their size, weight, and performance in real world.
    I was curious, so checked their site.

    I was also curious about ordering MIT bikes (folders and cargo) for delivery in Europe, and here's their reply:
    There are 2 models of cargo bikes that we may produce now, PRO-CTP26 26" 21-speed disc brake version and PRO-CTP20 20" inter 7-speed V brake version. Here attached the product feature for new model PRO-CTP20.

    <For single delivery>
    Landed cost for PRO-CTP20: US$700+ shipping cost to France US$255 = totally US$955.00 per set (by EMS).
    Landed cost for PRO-CTP26: US$800 + shipping cost to France US$230 = totally US$1,030.00 per set (by TNT economy express). The size cannot be delivered by EMS.
    Landed cost for MIT-V8: US$860 + shipping cost to France US$240.00 = totally US$1,100.00 per set (by EMS).

  7. #157
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    Winfried,

    The demo/sample copy of the Crius Shadow (16") was sold to one of our friends here, so we were able to test it. It will put to shame the Dahon Curve or any of their small 16" versions in terms of ride and feature set.

    The 20" Crius Master V and Master D will be arriving shortly. It is light at 10.3kg with premium parts and it is an 18-s bike with dual chainring. It is also a fast bike using the same frame design and geometry as the fast Dahon equivalent.

    The Crius All-Terrain is better spec'd than the equivalent Dahon Jetstream P8. Both are all-terrain bikes. It should be available in the next 1-2 months as well (for U$1,100 or 1,200. ).

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caterpillar750 View Post
    Patent and patent protection used to up to 17 years only........

    -------
    Next -> How Brompton sees the world. Or an inside look at how Brompton's
    Philosophy and POV of bikes and bike making.
    You know your patents
    Looking forward to next exciting chapter, in the meantime check out Brompton Page on Wikipedia for court case details...only in Holland that 3D 'industrial design' is covered by copyright law ?

    Thanks for sharing.
    Bicycle - the perfect 'Human Amplifier' For the same energy as walking, goes 4x distance and 4x speed, no sweat ... the new 4x4 ?

  9. #159
    Senior Member Winfried's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback on the Crius bikes. Too bad they're not imported in Europe.

  10. #160
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    How Brompton sees the folding bike world.

    Andrew Richie, the founder/inventor of the B's just wanted a small folding bike. He thought he could do better. And he did. But it was a long tortuous route and it took 10 or more years to perfect the bike. But the basic idea is there and after he got it pat, the modifications are few and the design and look of the typical B has not changed for decades.

    Cutting to the chase, the reason why B's are expensive is that they are made in the UK. There are many reasons for that. And Andrew did want to export and have a bigger market than UK or Europe. But enlisting the help of the Taiwanese company. And this experience left a bad impression that made Andrew and the new CEO wary of now having their bikes built outside the country.

    But doing it in-house has its own special problems. Many problems!


    Richie too was your typical inventor. Great at making products, great at getting it right, but poor in economies of scale. He was involved in all aspect of production (from R&D to selling) As the business grew, this eventually overwhelmed him and his staff. Being a non-manager too, most decisions also rested with him. He didn't know how to delegate or break down the main work and assign it to others to offload him of those duties.

    And so, he was stuck at around 6,000 bikes a year with his process and way of doing things.



    Today, basically, all B's patent have expired. But they will tell you that its strength and competitive advantage lay not in the design or even the the bike. They will tell you that what they have in their computers, their CAD/CAM drawings is the soul of the B. And its heart is in the processes and metal forming and critical parts manufacturing. And that is in the special tools they made to implement this process that is the key. That is why you don't see them in their videos. You see only the assembling and some brazing, but not the parts that truly are "proprietary" and could reveal how it is done.

    And that is why, early on, when they loaned their tools to a Taiwan company, that same company never returned those tools. And other lawsuits were filed through the years.



    Thus, Brompton basically no longer patent their products, much less their processes. Though patents give the originator the right to exploit his invention, a patent filing also reveals the workings of his invention. In fact, Brompton now believes that this patent protection even is detrimental to the protection of their product. Competitors can see what you did, and will simply work around it to avoid getting sued. The Japanese are very good at that. And competitors, if they get nasty, can also do an "encirclement" strategy. The patent holder will end up with a protected product, but the value chain can be barricaded or any other future growth stifled if another company starts patenting other ancilliary parts or use around the main patent.

    And this is why, Brompton would now rather not file a patent. They just keep the process or design or the tools to make the part a secret. It's not any different how Coca-Cola choose to keep a secret it's formula for it's cola drink. By doing this, competitors have no clue as to how they can get exacting tolerances in their bikes.

    Richie and Will Buttler-Adams, the new CEO would rather put their money on quality bikes and not spend on marketing. They'd rather put that money in R&D and improving processes and making production efficient. And this strategy has worked. Demand has always outstripped supply or their ability to build a bike!

    At this point, one would be tempted to build a factory in China or Taiwan. But now they wanted to avoid the problems they had before. So instead of going that route to increase production, Adams instead improved production processes. He only outsourced non-critical parts. He also had some of them partially assembled outside. This approach lead to efficiencies that when prior to his taking over in the early 2000's, Brompton can only muster around 6,000 bikes a year. AS the years rolled on, and the his selective mass production and them creating their own tools to make jobs easier, this increased to 10,000, then to 25,000, then to 35,000, then to around 40,000 in 2012. Today, I read somewhere that Brompton now is in the 45,000 per year clip of production!

    By stepping down from the helm of CEO (or Managing Director in their company name), Richie, in effect caused these changes to happen. Adams, radically improved on things and now they are exporting not just lots of bikes but also penetrated other countries, even in Asia. In our country, the Brompton Phils just launched and is selling their bikes now. There is no need for us to go to HK or Singapore to get our B's.

    Their next target is the USA. But they are not in a rush. They are moving at the speed where they can sustain and not let blind expansion rule them just to get the market. They know they can be patient because if they will lose quality if they go for speed of expansion. Their number one problem as they grow is not having a bigger plant. With their growth and profit, they can expand easily as far as PPE goes. But it's in the labor segment they are lagging. It is difficult to find good welders, good workers who are skilled in their ways. And that is the challenge of Brompton if they are to grow.

    The high cost of the bike is now not due to manufacturing inefficiencies as before in the time of its founder. Now, it is because of the high labor cost for really good workers in their plants. From around 16 to 26, now they have about 250 workers. And it's not just welders and machinist they want. They want to hire good CAD/CAM employees, and those with deep engineering roots and design sense. Again, the penchant for quality and details. With the strict labor laws of UK, they even have a hard time importing these skills.

    So, the choice to build their bikes in-house has historical its reasons. It is not just an altruistic sense that they want an all Brit team. In fact, they just hired some Chinese designers and engineers because their local market can't fill those. It takes them two or 3 years to find a suitable candidate and in some jobs, the locals are ill equipped.

    The amazing thing is, with all these need for highly skilled and high level of thinking, you'd think we'll see a different design of the B's! In fact, we'll probably not see any much change. But what we'll have are better bikes because Brompton will focus on making better tools to build bikes faster without losing quality. And any R&D they do will also focus on building e-bikes or those which may employ other means of powering it.

    In all these, Brompton is not following the way of most common companies. It's just marching to the beat of its own drum, it's own music, it's own pace. Meanwhile, MIT and chinese companies are slowly realizing that they just can't copy to make a product look the same. It's not so much as litigation as much as that realization that QUALITY does sell. Brand sells. The reputation behind the brand, because of the quality and value of it, sells.

    But MIT and their likes have a bit to go. Because high quality requires R&D, attention to detail and a CEO that actually believes this and willing to forgo shortcuts. It is also a willingness to wait, and keep trying with mistakes along the way to get the product right. One thing MIT has is this - they do know how to use aluminum and non-proprietary parts. They also know how to lower cost. This is an advantage to them. But they have to rise from their "me-too" and "low-cost, low quality" image. They have to prove that they can build a good low cost bike that is high quality. I believe that the MIT V8 is the first of such products.

  11. #161
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    So Brompton are hiring chinese staff to create a mass production line? They can meet MIT in the middle and finally merge companies.
    Honestly, the core design of both bikes is not optimal, IMO. There's room for something that's been redesigned from the ground up taking into acount some of the shortfalls of the Brompton and clones.

  12. #162
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    If they merged, Brompton can take care of the premium line while MIT handles the low-end. MIT can afford to experiment with various improvements that will move up to the Brompton line when they're fixed and ready.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caterpillar750 View Post

    In all these, Brompton is not following the way of most common companies. It's just marching to the beat of its own drum, it's own music, it's own pace. Meanwhile, MIT and chinese companies are slowly realizing that they just can't copy to make a product look the same. It's not so much as litigation as much as that realization that QUALITY does sell. Brand sells. The reputation behind the brand, because of the quality and value of it, sells.

    But MIT and their likes have a bit to go. Because high quality requires R&D, attention to detail and a CEO that actually believes this and willing to forgo shortcuts. It is also a willingness to wait, and keep trying with mistakes along the way to get the product right. One thing MIT has is this - they do know how to use aluminum and non-proprietary parts. They also know how to lower cost. This is an advantage to them. But they have to rise from their "me-too" and "low-cost, low quality" image. They have to prove that they can build a good low cost bike that is high quality. I believe that the MIT V8 is the first of such products.
    We can only hope the next few iterations of the V8 - improvements that only a company with little to lose will try - will make Bromptons wake up and push their R&D department.

  14. #164
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Dont hold your breath (or its time to start your own bike company)

    the British company has made several component design improvements
    always retro-fittable compatability to prior Bike owners

    Spider crank for 2013 is one, as is the new Brake levers,

    double wall rims including a rear specific spoke drilling pattern

    a H steering mast for 3" higher bars w/o making fold bigger.

    may not look like much but they are incremental improvements ..

  15. #165
    tcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caterpillar750 View Post
    Cutting to the chase, the reason why B's are expensive is that they are made in the UK.
    Specifically, London, which must rank as one of the world's most expensive places to manufacture a product. They could trim quite a bit of cost by moving the operation to, say, Glasgow.

    ...But they will tell you that its strength and competitive advantage lay not in the design or even the the bike. They will tell you that what they have in their computers, their CAD/CAM drawings is the soul of the B. And its heart is in the processes and metal forming and critical parts manufacturing. And that is in the special tools they made to implement this process that is the key....

    And this is why, Brompton would now rather not file a patent. They just keep the process or design or the tools to make the part a secret. It's not any different how Coca-Cola choose to keep a secret it's formula for it's cola drink. By doing this, competitors have no clue as to how they can get exacting tolerances in their bikes.
    There might be a little outfit operating out of a shed in Gaungzhou that doesn't have a clue, but otherwise, let's be realistic. Secret jigs, fixtures and processes? What Brompton is doing - cutting, forming and brazing carbon steel parts - is 1890s bicycle technology. An engineer from Raleigh's Nottingham factory of one hundred years ago could tool up and build 'all steel' Bromptons by the train load.
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

  16. #166
    tcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caterpillar750 View Post
    The Crius All-Terrain is better spec'd than the equivalent Dahon Jetstream P8. Both are all-terrain bikes. It should be available in the next 1-2 months as well (for U$1,100 or 1,200. ).
    You'd think that with Dahon's economies of scale they'd have a price advantage. So, has Dahon grown soft and fat or is Crius cutting corners on alloys, processes and tolerances? Or does Crius' alleged cost advantage really lay in the fact that they're building knock-offs of Dahon designs so they don't have the overhead of research, design engineering, product planning and testing?
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    Specifically, London, which must rank as one of the world's most expensive places to manufacture a product. They could trim quite a bit of cost by moving the operation to, say, Glasgow.



    There might be a little outfit operating out of a shed in Gaungzhou that doesn't have a clue, but otherwise, let's be realistic. Secret jigs, fixtures and processes? What Brompton is doing - cutting, forming and brazing carbon steel parts - is 1890s bicycle technology. An engineer from Raleigh's Nottingham factory of one hundred years ago could tool up and build 'all steel' Bromptons by the train load.
    Actually, Andrew Richie said the same thing in the beginning. He wasn't doing anything that anybody can't do. When he was handed a prototype of a folding bike in the beginning, he thought he could do a better job. And he did! It took time, but he did a better job! His penchant for details, precision, and fine tuning the same bike, incremental improvements that improve the riding experience is what sets him apart. Now with the new CEO process and manufacturing improvements where human labor and automation is matched to a tee is something that most don't consider as improvements, but do actually a competitive advantage. Add to this JIT (Just in time) inventory, outsourcing non-critical parts, do add to its advantage.

    In truth, anybody with a decent welding skill or an analytical mind can duplicate the Brompton. One can borrow or buy Brompton and reverse engineer it. The patents have expired, the design is simple. The question is - why hasn't anybody duplicated it and done a better job?

    What the Brompton has shown, is that it's not a matter of copying their bike and just undercut them in price by producing them in a low labor country will be the formula to supplant the Brompton. It would indeed take innovation, even if not apparent to many, to give one the weapon to subdue the Brompton.

    IF one is familiar with Michael Porter's work on competition and competitive advantage, he wrote that there are 3 basic areas one can compete in to gain an advantage, 1) cost, 2) differentiation, 3) segmentation. Not mentioned is a combination of all 3. Brompton decided to compete on the basis of differentiation and segmentation. The basis of differentiation is not just their design which anybody can copy, but in Quality and a positive and sustainable user experience. And they segment their bikes as only a 16" folding bike. Cost is the least of their concern.

    One can argue and complain that their bikes cost a lot, but one cannot argue that they are successful at what they do. Do they want to access more markets? Sure. They have made that clear, especially the USA market. But they are not going to do that by lowering quality, or rushing things. They, as they have in the past are going to do it the Brompton way. Slow, Steady, Sure.

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    Taiwan/China's innovations in folding bike

    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    You'd think that with Dahon's economies of scale they'd have a price advantage. So, has Dahon grown soft and fat or is Crius cutting corners on alloys, processes and tolerances? Or does Crius' alleged cost advantage really lay in the fact that they're building knock-offs of Dahon designs so they don't have the overhead of research, design engineering, product planning and testing?
    Except for the curved frame, and the hinges and locks, there isn't much one can do. Many of the frame design's locks, hinges and also the frame has long been proven and their patents, if any, have long been expired. The Dahon S18 straight frame design, for example is being used by Crius in their Master series. That is a fast bike and very stable and not twitchy even if used on a 16" wheel set. But China/Taiwan's true advantage is not in the frame. It is in the metallurgy dept.

    The curved frame is China/Taiwan's domination of the hydroforming and advanced metallurgy as far as this tech goes shows how much Japan, USA, and UK are lagging. Dopplengager is a Japan company that makes folding bikes and to lower cost they have factories build it for them in China. But since they don't have access or are refused use of hydroforming of aluminum.

    Only the German Birdy (Riese & Mueller) seem to have an aluminum folding bike that is hydroformed. Their . R&M must have struck a good deal with the Chinese for them to avail of hydroforming techniques or to be allowed to outsource their monocoque design. My guess is they had to trade their old BD1 straight frame to be duplicated for this.

    Birdy-II-Anthracite-folding-bike.jpg



    So let it not be said that China/Taiwan is merely copying off from other countries or companies. A folding bike, any bike is not just a bunch of coponents slapped together. There is much innovation that can be had in other areas. Even Anemos Zippy has done great R&D on their unique front fork lock. Yes, it may look simple, but we have that bike too, and that has stood over 5,000km in rough roads, done the Audax 200km and gone 300+km straight in a day. That bike folds like the B's but unlike the B, it is a FAST bike. It can go almost head-to-head with a road bike! In fact, it handles like a road bike, than a typical folding bike!

    The Anemos Zippy:
    1376794423.jpg

    Zippy folded:


    The Zippy in video:




    FYI, the SGM Storm's bikes are pretty strong. And their stem-post locks are the best I've seen. They don't creak or cause ticking sound even if you ride them for thousands of bikes. They are really tight and sealed well together. The Dahon hinges and locks fall behind what SGM has done. Even Tern's seemingly sophisticated Phi locks are problematical and do have creaks and tics compared to what SGM has done.

    The SGM Storm's stem-post and locks:

    1898075_686116711427098_1908333287_n.jpg



    If I recall, SGM Storm was the first folding bike in our country that used a fully functional folding bike using disc brakes! All at just U$180!

    Giant, and other USA bike makers who have access to hydroforming, don't seem interested in folding bike. Giant has the same Expressway design they use year after year for the past maybe 5-7 years. The frame and even some of the parts has not changed. Only the color or some minor thing (e.g. rack/carrier) changes. But they have not made any attempt at all to come out with any new folding bike.




    So, one cannot just say the Taiwanese/Chinese are copying. If any, they are innovating in areas that others can't seem to touch. The Japanese only lead in the components. Shimano is no. 1 when outfitting bikes with RD's, FD's, chainwheel, etc. But when it comes to frame design and metallurgy, and even hinges/locks, the Japanese are at least 20 years behind!

    We are lucky here in the Philippines as the folding bike market is exploding here for the past year. we have so many brands that are not sold elsewhere in the world. We get to experience and test all these bikes. We get to compare and see what works. And we have bikers who are hard core, and will push these bikes not just as urban commute bikes, but as touring, racing bikes, and even semi-cargo bikes. The really good ones get sold in just 2 weeks or a month. And the weak and bad ones are weeded out and no longer are re-ordered. One particular low cost all terrain is the Mars Kingdom Trooper.

    1525612_627533010639749_1785128856_n.jpg

    This is basically a 20" version of the Montague Paratrooper. It costs around U$250. There is the 26" version or MTB version at U$400.


    Other brands we have that you folks will likely not see or ride are:

    - SGM Storm and Light Storm
    - Atomic
    - Mars Kingdom
    - Hubu
    - Peerless
    - Anemos
    - Rhine
    - Enda
    - Crius
    - MIT

    Many of these are excellent bikes that can compete with Dahon or Tern. Some models will even put to shame what they have. They are lower in price and have better features. And it is not at the expense durability or quality. SGM, Anemos, Crius, Peerless, for example make very good sturdy folding bikes that are as good or better than Dahon or Tern.
    Last edited by Caterpillar750; 03-19-14 at 05:38 PM.

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    I hope Mezzo/Ori steal the Anemos Zippy front fork design, so that the bike no longer has the forks protruding when folded. The size would be much closer to a Brompton. You could have a straight stem then too. Let plagiarism move things in this direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caterpillar750 View Post
    Even Anemos Zippy has done great R&D on their unique front fork lock. Yes, it may look simple, but we have that bike too, and that has stood over 5,000km in rough roads, done the Audax 200km and gone 300+km straight in a day.
    The folding fork is really very clever. Funny, though, Anemos seems to have been flummoxed with what to do about the handlepost fold!
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

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    Excellent read Caterpillar. I just might be going back to Manila next month... I might check out a bike shop or three.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    The folding fork is really very clever. Funny, though, Anemos seems to have been flummoxed with what to do about the handlepost fold!
    Yes, and no. It folds that way because if it folds on the other side, the bike will tip over that side. We know, because the owner of the bike trained having a telescopic stem-post installed. That's how we found out that the bike will tip over.

    Our actual complaint with that stem-post is that it is too short. Basically, it is like a lean you have to go to like you are riding a road bike. But that means you can't have an upright position. The solution we did was to put an extender from Gub and it worked a bit. There are longer or telescopic stem-post, but finding one that folds the same direction was a bit problematical.

    The other thing the owner wanted was getting a fender and a rack to it. But Anemos didn't provide one for it. It is apparent that they made this bike a high performance bike meant for speed. In fact, they did enter this in a 420km bike race with road bike and MTBs and the Zippy placed 4th place in a 12 hour ride using all stock parts. The only one they changed is the pedal which was changed to cleat type.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by chagzuki View Post
    I hope Mezzo/Ori steal the Anemos Zippy front fork design, so that the bike no longer has the forks protruding when folded. The size would be much closer to a Brompton. You could have a straight stem then too. Let plagiarism move things in this direction.
    I have never found the forks to be the limiting factor of the fold. This I have found is the stem.
    It sticks up and scrapes on coupe rear windows , under tables, and on some train storage racks. It only needs a tilt to be made to fit in.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    Excellent read Caterpillar. I just might be going back to Manila next month... I might check out a bike shop or three.
    Unfortunately, there has been a surge of demand and many of the good models are out of stock now. They said it will be 2 months before stocks would be replenished.

    The MIT V8 is still available, as is the MIT Pro-1. If you are getting the V8, maybe you can also do the upgrades here (eg. change to 56/46T crank, put an FD and shifter, change to a lighter seatpost, change to a Zee RD, go for a 9-speed or 10speed, change handlebar, get schwalbe kojak tires, etc., etc). It will bloat your cost to over U$1,000 for sure, but when you take it home, you'll get a lighter Brompton clone that is already charged!

    The Rhine Birdy is also available in 20", 18" and 16" versions.

    But do give me a PM if you are coming over. Maybe I can be of help and point you to where you can get your bike parts or bike.
    Last edited by Caterpillar750; 03-20-14 at 03:17 AM.

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    Excellent information Caterpillar. I learned a lot just reading your posts. Thanks.

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