keyven

You've got the wrong idea. You are thinking of the middle class and high end markets.

There are many, MANY low-income owners who would certainly want a "flawed Brompton clone" which does not have quality parts, but is super-compact and runs well enough. They don't care if 15 months down the road, it has a rusted handlebar and develops a hairline crack on the body. As long as it gets them from Point A to Point B, it's all good.

You seem to lack the imagination to understand that a "cheap Brompton clone" which has the prime advantage of a Brompton - minuscule fold - is good enough for the vast majority of transport-based bike riders. They can easily carry their bikes onto a crowded bus/train to the factory instead of leaving it chained to a lamppost. Someone is bound to realize that sooner or later.

That said, I reiterate that I respect Bromptons and their pricing. They have done a great job keeping jobs in the UK while others are leaving in droves. That definitely comes at a cost.

chemeleon26

This is an interesting thread. I'd like to chime in as an owner of an iteration of the MIT V8. My version is called the Flamingo London. It uses a Shimano Nexus 7. It's quite nice but after all these years, I still yearn for a Brompton.

At last, it is now available where I live (Philippines). The price is more than 2x compared to the Flamingo. Heck even the MIT V8 is available at less than 2x price compared to the Brompton.

Now you ask, why do I want a Brompton even though the Flamingo is basically the same? Well, it's really just several small things. The folding action of the Flamingo is not very smooth. The top tube hinge does not fold very smoothly. The rear triangle does not have that locking mechanism when you unfold it. Also, to be honest, the Flamingo is not something you can admire aesthetically.

I guess it all boils down to what this bike makes me feel. I don't know if it will last when I finally get my hands on a Brompton but I suspect it will. And I'll be putting my money on that.

keyven

Nice reply. Just came back from Manila (first time there) and I saw tons of cyclists along the coast near Mall of Asia on a Sunday. I would have loved to bring my bike over and just cycle in the city but I've been warned it's not that safe, so refrained from doing so.

I love my Brompton - despite it being on the heavy side. I've managed to bring it just about anywhere (during non-peak hours of course), and it's always cool to run into other Bromptonites and curious cyclists. I love sitting casually on it in folded form on the train or bus while people sneak curious glances at it lol.

chemeleon26

Yes, it is not very safe riding your bike especially if you're a tourist. There are safe places though like Bonifacio Global City and the area around Makati. Mall of Asia is generally safe but its best you do not venture too far out. It would be best if you join groups there if you do plan to ride around the city. The cyclists are very friendly and would make sure you are safe. You can get in touch with them on facebook. I'm a member of these groups but I've never had the time to join them on their rides.

I'm quite excited with my Brompton. I'm just waiting for it to arrive. I had quite a difficult time in choosing the configuration.

I still have my Flamingo and I will ride it the next few days. It's funny but I've hardly ridden it the past few months. I might be selling it once the Brompton arrives.

keyven

Ah nice to welcome a fellow Bromptonite. What color and config did you get in the end?

I've just joined the club myself so I'm exploring the possibilities for bringing a folder everywhere I can. Places I wouldn't dream of lugging my lighter but far bulkier Dahon Uno into.

I'm not sure when I'll be back in Manila, but the people are REALLY friendly there (and speak English too), and I would love to fly over again soon.

Caterpillar750

Greetings!

I am from the Philippines and I registered here to put my 2 cents into the MIT V8 vs Brompton discussions. I would like to erase certain misconceptions and lay out how the V8 has performed in real world situations. I would also like to straighten out some misconceptions about Bromptons and other things as well.

I am planning to buy a V8 for a more portable and bimodal friendly bike. I am currently using a Peerless Firebird. It is a very fast and robust/sturdy bike that comes from China. In fact, many products that come from China aren't really bad when it comes to bikes, most especially when making hydroformed frames. If there are any weaknesses, it's usually in the components (RD, BB, etc) which is compromised in their quest to lower the total cost of the bike. But if they use good parts, the China made bikes shine. My Firebird, for example, uses SRAM X7 RD, X5 shifter and SRAM 8-s cogs, suntour folding pedals, and the frame really is strong. And this is not just the only bike that is very good coming from China. The Rhine Birdy, Rhine 2013, and the upcoming Crius 16" and 20" will put to shame many Dahon or Terns for their size, weight, and performance in real world.

But I digress here, so let me get back on track with the MIT V8 vs Brompton discussion. Since my response will be long, I will break it into segments.


First the size.
--------------
This is a photo of the V8 and a Brompton from PMTB.



Personally, if there are differences in size, it would be small and moot in my opinion.

2nd, the weight.
-----------------
The V8 is not really that light. In fact, their 8-speed RD version is about as heavy as the 6R or 6 series with M-type handlebars of Brompton. It is about 26lbs (11.8-12kg).

Build
-----
The frame is made of hydroformed aluminum. The rear triangle and the fork is CrMo steel. It has a hole near the headset so the cables route in so there is no messy cables on the outside. Quite amazingly, this has not made the frame weaker (more on real world testing/use). It uses an X4 RD, and a gripshift type of shifter. It shifts quickly and surely. Not as fast as the x7-x5, but it's good enough.

There is no flexing of any sort, from the rear or the stem-post. It's solid. This is a far cry from the earlier Flamingo which has those problem. We had a friend who has the Flamingo so we did a comparison. To go directly to the point, many of the issue of the Flamingo is no longer in the V8. The V8 is a different machine altogether. It is really much better.

The build is inspiring and solid. It is well made in looks and feel. You feel a solid bike. A sturdy bike. Later on, in real world use, all this impression will be vindicated and more. One will find that the V8 does not just look solid, it is really a solid performer!


Static Performance/functions.
---------------------------------

It folds just as well as the Bromptons. The lock at the back is a bit finnicky and there was an initial problem with the rubber stopper/shock getting lose. There is a work around for this, and the issue has been brought up with MIT. I heard from our distributor here that they will be changing the design of that part and will improve on it on the next iteration. The current owners can still avail of the changes if they want to, according to the distributor here.

The front folds well and has a plastic in the front to catch the stem-post and lock it in. When new, it is a bit stiff. So is the seatpost being pushed in and out. The rear triangle also will lock in place if the seat post is flushed pushed down. So if you don't want to have the rear triangle dangle when you lift the bike, make sure the seatpost is pushed down.

The saddle is comfortable and it the rear rack even has a portable pump with it! Some would probably still like to change that to Brooks or some other saddle. The seat post is similar in diameter as the Bromptons and is not the larger 33.9mm. The brakes work strongly and will stop you. The tire is a Kenda, but if one puts a Schwalbe Marathon Racer on it, rolling resistance will improve.

The bike folded on the rear carrier/rack moves well and easily on the small coaster wheels. The crank has a bashguard to prevent grease or dirt on getting on your trousers. The cogs is an 8-speed 11-28T. good enough for a 16". But you can go for a 32T if you want. But if uphills is your thing, it is best to go dual chainring and keep the 28T.

The chain tensioner is made of metal and is assuring unlike some which are made of plastic. The X4 RD though is a bit too near the ground and may hit humps or depressions on the road. A short cage RD may be in order or some adjustments in the RD to lift it a bit off the ground. Someone put this to rest by putting a Shimano Zee as the RD. A bit expensive but it does improve performance and solves this particular problem.



Upgrade Options
-----------------

One of the strength of the V8 is it uses standard parts and ease of upgrading without too much fuss. Thus, you can change the RD to a Zee , change the 52T crank to a 56/46T Ounce crank. For stronger riders, I think a 55T or 56T large crank is the best for this bike. In fact, this has already been done already without any problems.

One can also change the M-bar to a straight bar, a riser, or anything you want. No big deal. Change the brake levers to Avid, XT, XTR, Deore. Put Sora or road bike FDs on it. One very thoughtful thing about the V8 is that there is a FD mount already welded on it. You can put any non-band type FD in there without having to spend U$30-40 on a hard-to-find FD adaptor like Gub or Litepro.

Changing the rear tires is not as problematical as the Brompton, especially when you have a flat. It uses standard width hubs too, so you can choose to upgrade to a U$130-300 lighter wheelset from famous brands like Neuson, litpro, RockX, etc. So, if you are a weight watcher, you have options to go down in weight.

Someone already made this a 9-speed or 10-speed, and as long as you try not to mix & match 10-s with RB and MTB parts, you're ok. 9-s is more tolerant of mix and matching. But if you are not particular, the V8 stock parts work out of the box without hitches. They do work well.


---

My next post will be actual real world performance.

Caterpillar750

MIT V8 - Real world performance/use
-----------------------------------------

I am still in the process of saving for the V8. But I have road tested a friend's V8 for about 10km in various speeds and terrain. And he has had the V8 since it came out last year. He has logged about 6,000-8,000 km. He already lost count of the mileage but that is a fair distance and may even be too conservative.

To those doubting this made-in-China is not robust or well made, let me put that to rest. This bike has gone to Manila-to-Pagudpud (about 1,200km?) and halfway back. Climbed 7,200feet in Baguio and the highest point in the Mt. Province. It has completed with very fast speeds the local Audax 212km challenge with Cat 2 hills. This April, during Holy week, it will do a 750-800km 5-day trek from Manila to Matnog with also very tough hills in the middle and in the end! I know, because I just covered the tough hills going to Matnog Port, the southern most tip of Luzon before you cross the sea to Samar, the Visayas provinces.

The V8 was written 12-15 hours straight. In the heat of the sun, in rough roads, in gravel roads, in the mud, in the rain, etc. The bike has withstood all that. So, I would put to rest any notion that the MIT is a cheap low grade knock-off. The V8 has paid its dues and has passed with flying colors. In fact, the owner of the particular V8 I test rode, had 2 Bromptons, sold all his B's and will settle for the V8 as his main bike (he has a Rhine Birdy as his other bike).

When I asked him why he would stick with the V8, he said one thing that was important to him. He said that with the B's, climbing Baguio (about 5,000-6,000 feet above sea level) was a pain, a chore. The V8 was night and day in terms of easy climbing steep hills and mountains. Cimbing the mountain was really much easier.

Plus, he said that upgrading and changing parts was not a pain. He didn't have to think that the part he would replace would not fit or work.

Ride experience-wise, he said, that B's have their own charm. But he said, it's not that important to him. He said, his ride isn't that far off from the B's. But the climbs and the accelerations he said seems better with the V8. Being a high mileage guy and many in our group who is considered hard core (he also bikes to work and really logs in at least 2,000km a month (what with the Strava challenge also pushing him to do more), I have to take his opinion with great respect and less suspicion.


Now, let me say that this is his opinion. And this does not take away the greatness of the Bromptons. Because I have ridden his V8 too, I can say that he is not far off from what he reported. And that is why I registered to this site and made my post here. The bike does shine in its own right. And it has also addressed the early problems of the Flamingo which preceded it. Now, it has its new set of issues, but they are nothing that can be solved as they are not systemic to the V8. They are other parts problems that needs an interation on the 3rd generation (the Flamingo I consider being the 1st gen, the V8 and BP01 as the 2nd gen).


As I write this, there is now a Brompton Philippines. It means, we can now buy Bromptons without the pain and high cost of getting one or waiting for used ones (which is far and in-between). I believe the 6L costs around U$1,700. There is no need to go to HK or Singapore. Or to order it from local shops and the price bloat by U$250-350 more.



The V8 costs U$850 in our country. During some sale (like Chinese new year), they sold it for U$782.

Is the V8 a good buy? Well, it depends. For me, and some of us, the V8 is a good bike without the hassles and high price of a Brompton. It's also half the price of a 6L Brompton. You can buy 2 V8's for the price of one! And the V8 has a rack already! And a free pump that tucks in the rack!

But for me, it's not just the low price. The build, durability/robustness, reliability, and the ease of upgrading it are the plus for me. This bike has gone long distance running for daily for days, covering thousands of km's, in all sorts of conditions, and in various speeds and terrain has sold me that this bike is not just wanna-be Brompton that is cheaper version. This notion and perception was already shattered by real world use by our hard core rider/owner.

Now, some will not be swayed. But that is ok. But to dismiss the V8 as a poor less than capable bike is so far from the truth. Also the MIT V8 is not really a clone or a copy of the Brompton. It is really a different bike. Only the rear triangle and maybe the front fold is the same. But as far as the frame and even the hinges goes, it's a different bike altogether. And that will be the next I will post on this.

---
Next -> An inside look at Brompton's way of making bikes, patents, and
What the MIT V8 really is as a bike and in terms where it really stands vs the Bromptons.

keyven

Very nice review Caterpillar. Thank you.

I might consider the V8 as my secondary bike (to use with the Brompton which my wife can use) and play around with the upgrade options, since the Brompton does not offer much 'cheap' and straightforward upgrade paths.

I'm not a technical guy, so I got to ask about the practical options for the V8 - do they have the equivalent of the Front Carrier Block (FCB) on the V8? Either something that allows bags to easily latch on to the bike, or a modified FCB (which I think I heard of) that allows me to quickly snap my bags off/on the bike?

Caterpillar750

Yes, you're welcome.

The V8 does take the Brompton bags. So you can interchange them. My friend who owns the V8 still uses his old Brompton bags.

The V8 is also able to handle heavy loads. He sometimes come in in one of our meetings fully loaded with lots of stuff (big volume and heavy weight). That says a lot about the bike!

I will be posting about how Bromptons go about their business. Why the cost so much. Their problems and their thrust for the future. But I'll leave that for now and let others ask questions for now. But the way Brompton does business must also be revealed because I read a lot of misconceptions around here. Most are conjectures or guesswork only based on what they see on the surface. Not really to defend Brompton, but once people see why they do what they do and how they do it, it will become clear that profit, though important, is not the reason why their bikes are expensive.

keyven

An article on the net claim the Brompton's FCB fits, but not without hindering some form of movement from the bike. I'm not sure if this info is outdated though.

Did your friend make any kind of modification or does the Brompton FCB just simply... fits? Without any major problems? That would go a long way towards me deciding on the bike.

My basic impression is they manufacture everything in England, so everything from labor to transport is going to have an added cost. Furthermore, their insistence on proprietary parts mean they have to make the parts themselves instead of using pre-made. Their warranty is decent, if unremarkable, for a high-end commuter bike.

The fact that they do not provide any form of warranty for their expensive (quality notwithstanding) add-ons is somewhat disappointing. I love my Bromptons for its sheer practicality but I'll definitely stop at just one till they provide better value. Till then I'll probably spoil my current bromps like an only child.

Caterpillar750

I'm not sure, but to my knowledge he didn't do any modifications. I will ask him when I see him. We get to see each other once a week, unless I am out of town (like 2 weeks ago).

When I post my entry on the Brompton as a company, you folks will get a good idea why Brompton does what it does.

Anyway, here's a picture of the V8 with a brompton bag. Bike has been modified with a Brook's saddle, flatbar (from a Tern bike), Gub stem extender, Shimano Zee RD, XTR shifters and brakelever, XT rear v-brake, Sora FD, Brompton front caliper brake, a dual crank Ounce 56t/46t with a 10-speed cogset. So you basically have a 20-speed bike here. This is how flexible in upgrading this bike is!



the zee RD:

2_i 

I would love to get their tensioner attachment for some parallel project. It ideally fits the requirements in the project. Unfortunately, the scan of the internet does not reveal any sources for those.

chemeleon26

Interesting posts by Caterpillar. I have the Flamingo and I can indeed say that it flexes. It's not very bad but I think for people used to riding full sized bikes, they will really feel the difference. A flat bar will do wonders I read someone say in this forum.

It's good that Grace Gallant was able to fix the issues of the Flamingo with the MIT V8. Now, I wonder if there is any chance that I can turn my Flamingo into a MIT V8. I'll give the distributor a call to find out.

keyven

I love the fact that there's an alternative - not in quality, but in flexibility - to Brompton's offering.

chemeleon26

Indeed. If tweaking performance is your thing, get the clone. They are very upgradeable. I know someone who put in a Front Derailleur on his Flamingo.

As for me, I'm happy with its limited upgradeability. Why? It saves me the temptation of upgrading its parts. I mean honestly, when I was mountain biking, I was always thinking of upgrading its components endlessly.

keyven

Isn't that part of the fun of owning a GOOD bike? Even though I'm not a technical guy, it's always great to fool around with new parts and see how much improvement it makes. I only changed the handlebars, wheelset, stem and pedals on my Giant X1 but I never stopped thinking about how it could be improved further.

Last night I stopped by Ikea to look for a cheap-but-good-looking metal/wicker basket that I was going to cable tie to the front carrier-frame of my Brompton. In the end I bought a US$1 cardboard box cos that was the only box/basket which fit my specifications lol. If it didn't look so horrible, I would settle for its sheer lightness and practicality - that's how non-technical I am -.-;

chagzuki

What type of bearing is used in the rear frame hinge and how is it secured? I wonder if avoids the expense and complexity of drilling and reaming that Brompton's old school solution invovles?

fietsbob

you actually replace the rear portion of your bike that often?

chagzuki

I haven't done it once yet and I've had my brompton 3 years, I think. The rear is a big waggly but I don't think it really impacts the ride. However, it'd be nice to see alternative designs. I can see why Brompton have stuck with plain bearings as the diameter effects the folded size.

bhkyte

Imagine if a 3X2 speed brommie costs twice as much as a hydroformed alloy framed proper 8 speed IHG hub bromie with better upgrade paths.

would people still buy the 2X3 at twice the cost??

I would like to imagrate and have this no brainer "choice"!

2_i 

So I guess my interest in the tensioner, random part read off the photo, tests here right away the availability of replacement, supposedly standard, parts. If I want a replacement, I am left out in the cold.

bhkyte

Lots of aftermarket chan tensioners available

2_i 

Since I know what I need for the project, I can assure you of nothing there on the web looking like the tensioner extension on the V8. People often have an impression of an abundance until they have to look into details. There is an abundance of tensioners for single-speed conversion. I can be disproved with an example.

Caterpillar750

I asked my friend who owns the MIT V8 yesterday. No, there is no modifications needed to put the Brompton luggage/bag to it.

keyven

That's great news. Thank you. I might go down tomorrow to have a look then.