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  1. #26
    jur
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    I have used both for years.

    I have an XT shadow derailer on my Swift. I want to ride fast, and up hills with it. I would not consider putting an IGH on it. My experience with a variety of them, they are a bit heavy, and I can most certainly feel the extra drag they produce. And it's a weird thing - once I have something light under my bum, it just wants to go fast. So the weight is a big deal for me - somehow it matters more than just the bare grams. It's not just placebo either - a light bike brings out more, I just have this urge to ride harder. A heavy bike feels more sluggish, even if the difference is slight, and it makes me relax a bit more, so I just go slower.

    Re the maintenance - if riding in wet weather, the SA hubs are actually no good. Water got into mine every time, rusting the bearings. It is a helluva lot more work to strip and grease a set of bearings than to spray WD-40 on a chain, spin cranks, blow out with compressed air, and oil the chain rollers. And I have never bent a derailer on any of my folders with them on.

    I also have doubts about the validity of the argument that a low-hanging derailer will pick up extra dirt. If you are riding normal dry sealed roads, I don't think there is any extra dirt. On wet roads - sure, but I have found the majority of wet dirt is splashed up from the wheels, and smaller wheels tend to splash more than big ones, so the smaller wheels make the derailer and chain get dirty quicker, not the low-hanging position per se. But in very short order the difference between small wheels and big wheels is gone because the chain gets saturated. So I find that the chain gets as dirty as with any sized wheel bike. I don't notice any difference.

  2. #27
    Senior Member ThorUSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    I have used both for years.

    I have an XT shadow derailer on my Swift. I want to ride fast, and up hills with it. I would not consider putting an IGH on it. My experience with a variety of them, they are a bit heavy, and I can most certainly feel the extra drag they produce. And it's a weird thing - once I have something light under my bum, it just wants to go fast. So the weight is a big deal for me - somehow it matters more than just the bare grams. It's not just placebo either - a light bike brings out more, I just have this urge to ride harder. A heavy bike feels more sluggish, even if the difference is slight, and it makes me relax a bit more, so I just go slower.

    Re the maintenance - if riding in wet weather, the SA hubs are actually no good. Water got into mine every time, rusting the bearings. It is a helluva lot more work to strip and grease a set of bearings than to spray WD-40 on a chain, spin cranks, blow out with compressed air, and oil the chain rollers. And I have never bent a derailer on any of my folders with them on.

    I also have doubts about the validity of the argument that a low-hanging derailer will pick up extra dirt. If you are riding normal dry sealed roads, I don't think there is any extra dirt. On wet roads - sure, but I have found the majority of wet dirt is splashed up from the wheels, and smaller wheels tend to splash more than big ones, so the smaller wheels make the derailer and chain get dirty quicker, not the low-hanging position per se. But in very short order the difference between small wheels and big wheels is gone because the chain gets saturated. So I find that the chain gets as dirty as with any sized wheel bike. I don't notice any difference.
    +1
    Having fun selling Terns and Dahons for a living. My personal website is also my business website, same as my profile name, therefore no link given to follow forum rules.

  3. #28
    tcs
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    Re the maintenance - if riding in wet weather, the SA hubs are actually no good. Water got into mine every time, rusting the bearings.
    Hmph? (scratches head) Go figure.

    "Labyrinth seals are non contacting rotating labyrinths through which splash water
    cannot enter and gravity drains them. Sturmey Archer hubs are classic examples
    of such seals. They are more than 40 years old and used in the rain, yet the hubs
    are clean and dry inside with no wear or frictional drag....It has the best labyrinth
    non-contacting seals of any hub." Jobst Brandt
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

  4. #29
    Senior Member ThorUSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    Hmph? (scratches head) Go figure.

    "Labyrinth seals are non contacting rotating labyrinths through which splash water
    cannot enter and gravity drains them. Sturmey Archer hubs are classic examples
    of such seals. They are more than 40 years old and used in the rain, yet the hubs
    are clean and dry inside with no wear or frictional drag....It has the best labyrinth
    non-contacting seals of any hub." Jobst Brandt
    Jobst Brand .... hmmm ??
    he came up with some real "out there" comments about wheels/spokes etc etc as well ...
    why do I trust Jur more than him ?
    Having fun selling Terns and Dahons for a living. My personal website is also my business website, same as my profile name, therefore no link given to follow forum rules.

  5. #30
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    It was not too tough to remove and re-grease the axle bearings . on my AW3..

    and squirt some more oil down the right end of the axle, removing the shifting chain temporarily ..

  6. #31
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Rohloff uses two pop-off connectors
    FYI .. One of the Rohloff types uses 2 bayonet connectors in Bare wire ,
    the other one, commonly with the EXternal shift, Disc Brake Version, comes off even simpler ..

    a single knob .

  7. #32
    Senior Member bhkyte's Avatar
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    I like the efficency of using a 3 speed IHG with dual drive. I don't know the figures but it seems to work well and offer a 36% upgearing over a drailer set up.
    I don't like IHG levers so I go with dual drive also for this reason. However, recently found out that nexus and afline can be used with sti road race "versa" shifters in 11 and 8 speed.

    I also like to be able to shift with either hands if braking, and I like the option of gross shifts on the left hand and fine shifts on the right that either a drailer or dual drive set up offer.
    However I have never owned a IHG with more than 4 speeds.......tend to be expensive.
    Dual drive Mezzo (GOLD), Dual Drive Mezzo with bullbars (black), White Brompton thingy with Dahon Androes stem and bull bars. Birdie (old sytle) 7 speed. Downtube NS8. Birdie red.

  8. #33
    Schwinnasaur Schwinnsta's Avatar
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    I have both an IGH and derailleur bike, English Raleigh. The old SA English hub sees rain here a lot. No problem. Only maintenance is oil squirt once in a while. I seems to me much more efficient that the Shimano Nexus 7-speed I once had. I don't do hills here, and maybe if I did, my opinion would be different, but this works for me, well enough. Its not hard to take off a rear tire either, just one more step.

    That said, I do like my derailleur bike. If I had to make choice and have only one bike, I would go with a derailleur.

  9. #34
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jur View Post
    I have used both for years.


    Re the maintenance - if riding in wet weather, the SA hubs are actually no good. Water got into mine every time, rusting the bearings. It is a helluva lot more work to strip and grease a set of bearings than to spray WD-40 on a chain, spin cranks, blow out with compressed air, and oil the chain rollers. And I have never bent a derailer on any of my folders with them on.

    I also have doubts about the validity of the argument that a low-hanging derailer will pick up extra dirt. If you are riding normal dry sealed roads, I don't think there is any extra dirt. On wet roads - sure, but I have found the majority of wet dirt is splashed up from the wheels, and smaller wheels tend to splash more than big ones, so the smaller wheels make the derailer and chain get dirty quicker, not the low-hanging position per se. But in very short order the difference between small wheels and big wheels is gone because the chain gets saturated. So I find that the chain gets as dirty as with any sized wheel bike. I don't notice any difference.
    Huh? I have 30+ bikes several get ridden in any and all weather conditions, I have never had a problem with water in an SA hub, Shimano not so lucky. FWIW all of my SA hubs are the older style oil bath. I do use grease in the bearings.

    The drive trains on my derailleur bikes get quite filthy riding and need to be cleaned regularly. Riding in inclement weather and they need to be cleaned more often. Perhaps the chain guards/chain cases on my IGH bikes help keep things cleaner? All but one of my bikes have fenders.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

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  10. #35
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    I'm currently building up a Swift folder with an Alfine 11 hub. Main reasons were 1) reduced maintenance for commuting, and 2) I just wanted to try it.

    A couple of things that have not been mentioned yet, specific to 20" and smaller wheels:

    1) On hubs where low-gear / climbing durability has been an issue (i.e. Alfine 11), 20" wheels have an edge, because you are going to run a much higher chainwheel/cog ratio than you would on a full-size bike. Thus, torque input to the hub is reduced, all else being equal.

    2) If torque is reduced but power output is invariant (which it obviously is), guess what? RPMs are higher. And as all forms of drag generally scale nonlinearly with the speed of the components (think air resistance here), we can expect that IGH drag is a proportionally bigger issue on a small wheel. Again, all else being equal.

    So, this should be interesting. I got a good deal on the hub at ~ $400 so it won't be the end of the world if I hate it.

  11. #36
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    true.. 16:38, 26" wheel & 16:50 in a 20" wheel comes out about the same..

    I have 2 Rohloffs .. in the 26" wheel it is at its minimal 2,4 ratio ... 62" +- .5"

  12. #37
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcs View Post
    Hmph? (scratches head) Go figure.

    "Labyrinth seals are non contacting rotating labyrinths through which splash water
    cannot enter and gravity drains them. Sturmey Archer hubs are classic examples
    of such seals. They are more than 40 years old and used in the rain, yet the hubs
    are clean and dry inside with no wear or frictional drag....It has the best labyrinth
    non-contacting seals of any hub." Jobst Brandt
    I assume it depends on which model. Sturmey Archer and Jobst Brandt have both been around for a while! ;-)

    FWIW, I thought that he seals on the SA 8-speed hub was mediocre. I didn't ride it in the rain much but I had to disassemble it and clean it out before passing the bike along to a bud.

  13. #38
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    I have used both and I think I prefer the IGH. The wieght difference between the two is quite small and I do think there is a bit more efficiency to the derailleur, but there is less chain in the IGH and it is closer to the hubs. I am less likely to smear grease when I stow away the IGH bicycle. John

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