CliffordK

Ok, I'm trying to start a small custom wheel building business. And, I'm hoping to move into the custom bike building in the future. But, let's start with wheels. Hopefully I don't get whacked by the net police for this. I'll endeavor to keep this research based on not ad based.

I suppose I could make wheels based on any platform. However, I like the gearing available on the Capreo hub.

I'm mostly into road bikes and like to mash the higher gears. However, some of my interests will cross over with folding bikes and recumbents. Bike Friday is local, and I'll try to stop by the factory shortly.

Anyway, so the Standard Capreo hubs are 9 speed hubs with (9,10,11,13,15,17,20,23,26) gearing.

The 9,10,11 sprockets are unique to the Capreo. The 13 sprocket can either be used, or replaced with a 12T Ultegra/Dura Ace (or others) sprocket. All the other gears are more or less standard Shimano gears. Dura-Ace and Ultegra use multi-gear carriers for their higher gears.

Of course, 9 speed is a bit passé today in the world of 10S and 11S bikes.

I've now tracked down cogs to make a 10S, and I believe an 11S version of the Capreo cassette.

So, what would your ideal gearing be?
9 Speed, 10 Speed, or 11 Speed?

9T, 10T, ... --> ???
10T, 11T, ... --> ???

Also, rim brakes, or disc brakes?
Type of rim? Size? 16", 18", 20", 24"?
Spoke Count?
Dropout Spacing? 130mm, 135mm? Something else?

Thanks for the input.

fietsbob

My Ideal gearing? R'off 500-14 ... each 86.4% of the next higher gear ..

I, OTOH, Prefer IGH, so I'm no help.. Rohloff is 135 wide , to make a small wheel in a High geared range they have a 13t cog.

There is a particular type of 4 bolt disc for those hubs. I use Avid's 160 size.

I got a 406 wheel Pocket Llama .. it runs the common 16t cog , and a 53t chainring ..

now back to You talking about Your Capreo wheels, which was your intention in the 1st place.

dynaryder

FYI,Shimano makes a 10spd Capreo cassette,someone posted a pic of it on here awhile back. Also,there are several companies doing custom cassettes down to 9t that go on a standard hub.

CliffordK

So far, the only reference to 10 speed "Capreo" I have found is after-market. I believe ICE does sell one with a rather hefty price tag. I haven't found any evidence that Shimano is making the upgrade at this time. The F700 and F800 Capreo models are both listed as 9 speed. I am hoping to come in at a lower price point than ICE.

Canfield is apparently dropping the 9T offerings.

As far as using a Standard freehub, there are definite clearance issues. One may get something that would hang off the end and bolt on, but the axle would still need to be extended.

However, I have found some references to modifying a Campy freehub to accept a 10T cassette. That may be something that I will pursue in the future.

Shimano's Capreo suffered from a shortened main freehub body which required a custom hub to accommodate it. I'm anticipating that an 11 speed "Capreo" would take a custom freehub, but a standard hub, thus opening up a very wide range of options.

------------

I suppose my question is this. On another bike forum, I keep seeing references to people mounting monster 30T or larger cassettes on standard road bikes. However, I've never had anything bigger than 23T on my road bike.

So, for recumbents, folding bikes, and other small wheeled bikes, or perhaps those wishing for 700c with higher gear ratios, would people choose tight gearing (9T to 23T or less), or would they want a wide range (9T to 28T or larger).

There is also a 10T Capreo-style offering available, but I would skip it as it is a lot of work for only slightly smaller than the standard 11T range, the exception being the possible mounting of 10T on a Campy freehub.

Sorry, I'm not considering internally geared hubs at the moment, although there is an interesting 3 speed/cassette combo. Nonetheless, all input is welcome.

Sixty Fiver

I am partial to internal gear hubs and dual drive systems for smaller wheels... when you drop below a 13 tooth driver efficiency really decreases while cog wear increases and it is still difficult to match the range of a standard bicycle as you have to run a much larger chainwheel.

This is why most manufacturers use internal hubs and dual drive systems for higher performance applications... as one who builds custom wheels I can say that smaller wheels compose a very small percentage of my customer base although I ride quite a number of these myself.

CliffordK

Belt drive with internally geared hubs would be nice on a folding bike (I think). At least it seems as if it should be cleaner. I would think there would be some added friction in the overdrive system.

I did put a 20" wheel on my cargo bike, and clearance for the derailleur hanger became an issue.

I have already noted some wear on my current 9 speed Capreo cassette on th 10T and 11T cogs after about 1300 mi. There is still a lot of wear left, but I could imagine people would dislike wearing out expensive replacement parts.

jur

Wear on the smaller cogs of a cassette is the reason I stay away from Capreo, as they have not been cheap.

CliffordK

Technically you should be able to purchase the individual 9 speed gears from Shimano, but unfortunately their US support for the Capreo seems to be quite lacking.

If everything works out, hopefully I'll have the small 4 sprocket cluster for about the price of a new chain. The larger 6 or 7 sprockets would be standard Shimano.

fietsbob

Maybe as an established business you can talk to Shimano about case lot sized orders of individual cogs..
usual packaging is the whole cassette & a lockring.








Perhaps there is a Company in Asia to make a Caprio compatible cassette, other than Shimano ..

Flying to Taipei for their next Industry Trade show may be a worthy investment in Time and Money.

they are apparently eager to please, being an export market Region.

invisiblehand

I believe Bike Friday already has some method for converting Capreo cassettes to 10-speed. But I'm still on 9-speed and can't tell you many details. Bike Friday also sells a high end capreo rear hub ... I think it comes in 24- and 32-hole combinations so I'd focus on those two options.

My take on 10- and 11-cog cassettes is that they make the most sense when making wide gearing; although I see that a 11-23 11-speed cassette is offered. So I may be out of touch with your target market.

Anyway, in my little world, a 11-speed 9-26/28/30/32 cassette real wheel is attractive depending on what type of rear derailer I have on the rear. It would keep the classic granularity of some old cassettes in 7- and 8-speed while giving he upper end of a "big" wheel bike. I'd offer cassettes where the first four positions were 9/10/11/12 instead of the 13 since that's a big jump on my Capreo rear. I'm not sure where I'd put an 11th cog.

I can't imagine too many roadies using more than a 32 spokes on a small rear wheel and suspect most would stick to 24 spokes. I like building with Velocity rims which means in 20" I'm looking at either Aeroheats (406) and A23s (451).

I think that what I wrote above applies to 16" (349) wheels as well except that only the heaviest folks would use 32 spokes in that size. Mind you, if you're thinking of high-end wheels, it might make sense to keep in mind the classic Moulton (369?) and 18" (355) sizes.

Sixty Fiver

invisiblehand - you are right on the various Moulton wheel sizes and they also used the much more common 20 inch size.

If we are looking at building a 406 (20 inch) wheel you can get an acceptable gear ratio with a stock cassette running an 11 tooth cog and a larger chainwheel but once you start dropping the wheel size down it gets much more challenging to match gearing without using an IGH or an immense chainwheel as was seen on vintage Moulton racing bicycles.

Tom Simpson...

CliffordK

I'll try to swing by the Bike Friday factory in the next couple of days and hopefully find someone to talk to. They seem to offer a lot of 9 speed bikes.

The only Bike Friday Capreo options I see on the web are 9 speed, 9-26 & 9-28. They do offer a 130mm width sealed bearing "capreo" style hub for about twice the cost of the Shimano hubs.

The stock Shimano Capreo cones are rough. I have figured out that I can hand polish them. I managed to pit my first stock cones at 1000 miles. Hopefully polishing will help, but I'm worried that the stock Shimano cones are too cheap even if polished smooth to start with. Not a big deal upgrading cones and perhaps bearings, but every few dollars adds up.

As far as the standard 9 speed Capreo, I didn't like skipping the 12T & 14T (9,10,11,13,15,17,20,23,26). There are a lot of big compromises when going to such a wide range of gears (thus the need for 10 or 11 speed). The 12T sprocket from a 9 speed, 11-x or 12-x cassette will work just fine with the Capreo. However, since Shimano uses common carriers for at least their high end cassettes, the 9 speed gearing is a bit awkward.

I suppose part of the question is my vendor is offering a 4-sprocket cluster:
10 speed options: (9, 10, 11, 13) or (10, 11, 12, 13).

I had expected it to be (9, 10, 11, 12). I can imagine added flexibility skipping the 12T if making a relaxed gearing cassette. However, for tight gearing, it would seem a little awkward to do something like (9, 10, 11, 13) (14, 15, 17, ...) with an extra gap in the middle.

I might be able to support both (9,10,11,12)... & (9,10,11,13)... However, it is a fair upfront investment to meet the minimum orders.

fietsbob

Overhauling them regularly so the rolling of the ball burnishes your bearing race without any grit contamination may help


Industrial level_ Case, surface hardening the polished cone may be past your small shop capability .

FWIW decades old AW3 cones on a S-A hub just keep on keeping on .

CliffordK

If I sell wheels, I would anticipate them to last more than a thousand miles, otherwise my start-up company won't outlast a season. Nor can I anticipate customers will clean and repack bearings multiple times a year.

Polishing off all the black stuff on cones is easy enough, but it all takes time. Hopefully I'm not polishing off surface hardening, although the cones with black surfaces usually quickly wear a silver track through the black.

I could probably develop processes for surface hardening, but I would rather just start with the right parts and right alloys. I believe that Wheels Manufacturing Inc. makes their cones here in the USA and I sent them a question about hardening and alloys.

Oh, I got a quick response back from Wheels Manufacturing:So much for that company. It is hard to justify spending $20 on cones if the manufacture refuses to tell one why they are better than the competitors.

Perhaps I should just get sealed bearings.

marxmini

this is the discussion in the birdy thread regarding the capreo 10 speed. i hope it helps.

https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bi...thread-18.html

CliffordK

Thanks,
I'm not seeing a lot of info on the Joseph Kuosac 10s cassette online, so perhaps there were other issues with it.

I'm still using friction shifters for most of my riding. so I naturally shift and trim. Perhaps I'm getting better with the trimming, but it seems as if every time I add more sprockets in the rear (5,6,7,9), the trimming gets easier. I.E. There is always a sprocket where one needs it.

I have used semi-indexed grip shifters on occasion and they seem to be quite forgiving. Brifters are coming... soon.

However, my vendor is specific about getting my "index angle" correct, as well as encouraging me to NOT drop sprockets in the middle of a cassette when building a "franken-cassette".

I would like to have a pile of sprockets from which I could assemble just about any custom cassette, but this has me thinking a bit about the whole project.

At this point, I will have to fast-track building a 11s bike with brifters so I can play around with franken-cassettes.

On the positive, I did get my prototype freehub finished.

This, of course, is still a mock-up of the cassette using some of the 9S Capreo components. I still need to get the 11s first 3 or 4 gears. But the freehub turned out nice, although I am still about 1mm wide (spacer? 12s ready?)



I should be able to mount it on just about any Shimano hub with a standard 10mm axle (not the Capreo specific hub). All I need is access to the necessary parts.

fietsbob

Looks like a ton of dish to put a rim over the center of such a hub with the gear stack taking up 40% of the axle width.

CliffordK

I think that hub is spaced at 130mm, although it is a 145mm (135mm O.L.D.) axle. I think I need about a 1mm additional spacer on the left side, and could perhaps reduce the width on the right by 1mm or so with the right spacers. Perhaps more if I cut down the freehub more once I get the true 11S small sprockets.

There are a couple of brands that make asymmetric or off-center road bike rims which would help a lot with the dishing. I'm using Velocity Aerohead OC rims now. I'm not sure if they are available in small rim sizes.

Last Friday, I stopped by Bike Friday. But, unfortunately they had pretty much closed early. Looking around the showroom, it appeared as if they had used some very wide rear hubs on several of the bicycles, but I'm not sure of the exact measurements.

fietsbob

Yea Adding length to the left end of the axle tandems do that ,,145, and more.. lts the whole hub move under the rim/wheel center line..


the derailleur vs IGH debate continues.

floater121

Until each of my two Birdies were stolen, they ran with 9-speed Capreos, with cassettes stretched out to a maximum 34 tooth. I care much more about having a wide gear range than having a small spacing between the gears. And because I bike in a hilly area I really wanted that 34 tooth cassette working with my 45 tooth chain wheel for climbing. Now running a much cheaper Downtube 9FS, which I like quite a bit, but miss the gear range I had on the Birdie.
J

tedi k wardhana

i have a hasa f2. a taiwanese 16" folder.
originally came with 7speed hub and cassette.
and i decided that a capreo is the best choice.
the best to achieve the gear range.
and it is no coincidence that dahon has this on the curve sL

rickbern

I'm the opposite of floater121.

I have a bike friday with a capreo rear hub, triple 50-39-30 in the front. I can stick with 9 speed, but I'd like closer gearing than the traditional capreo, something like 9-10-11-12-13-15-17-20-23. I'm in NYC and I just don't see the benefit of all those big jumps. I might also go for something closer, like 9-10-11-12-13-14-16-19-21.

I wouldn't be too keen to go to 10 speed capreo unless Shimano did it first.

Rick

fietsbob

Sturmey Archer 28 hole S-RF5(N) 5 Speed IHG with 2 cogs* will get you to 10.
Sturmey Archer

12, 13, 15, 16 t cogs are in common Brompton Spares .
Also possible to half step 5 speed IGH with 2 chainrings for the Hidden TdF rider with in you.

there are SEA makers of Ti cogs to pack 3 external cogs.. in that external Driver space.

CliffordK

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one in the world that likes tight gearing.

Admittedly, one of the problems with going with a small custom start-up builder might be getting spares in the future. I've also heard people worry about touring with a stock Capreo cassette, and spares availability on the road.

I have talked to Bike Friday, and they are interested in an 11S Capreo option... assuming it all works smoothly which would mean some continuing support. And, of course, I will need to assemble and test everything before distribution.

As far as tight gearing on the 9S platform, the easiest to build is:

Take first 3 sprockets from a stock 9S Capreo: 9-10-11
Choose a 9S Ultegra or Dura Ace with a 17-19 sprocket cluster. Use 12-19 from your Ultegra/Dura Ace.

Suitable Ultegra/Dura Ace donors:
11-23 & 12-25 & 12-27 Cassettes (Don't use the 11-21, or 12-21 or 12-23 cassettes).

One gets:
[9,10,11] - 12,13,14,15,[17,19]

There are a couple of issues that one runs into with the mixed cassettes. The "high-end" cassettes use a common carrier for the larger sprockets making it difficult to mix and match pieces. Some of the lower-end cassettes have riveted sprockets that you could potentially disassemble. The other issue is that with indexed shifting, it is apparently better to not mix and match sprockets, somewhat limiting your overall flexibility.

Anyway, I think the 9-19 cassette is great. However, loosing a couple of the larger sprockets is part of the reason for starting my quest to achieve 11 speed compatibility.

---

Looking a bit further, another 9S hybrid option would be to use the M970, BA group (11-32) as a donor cassette.
You would get:
[9,10,11] - 12,14,16,18,[21,24]

I haven't tried it, but it should work. You would still be missing the 13T sprocket, but you do gain the 12T.