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  1. #1
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    What are the advantages of a derailleur folder? Why are they marketed?

    Hello,

    Why are there manufacturers who are bringing folders on the market with a derailleur system?

    What are the advantages?

    The Giant Halfway was at the top of the list for my first folder, but it's sinking now I think about the disadvantages of a derailleur system:

    * More maintainance than hub gears;
    * More dirty than hub gears;
    * More sensitive (to shocks, e.g. while (un)folding). So a lot of adjustment is needed.

    Can someone give me one reasson (or more) why to choose a folder with a derailleur system?
    Maybe a derailleur is a bit more efficient than a hub gears? But does it change that much?)

    Can derailleur advocates explain me what's arguments can be used against Brompton explanation:

    http://www.bromptonbicycle.co.uk/ind...ny.philosophy:

    Why, for instance, don't we use multi-geared derailleur systems, so popular at the moment?
    Answer, they do not (unless reliability is compromised) give satisfactory gearing on a small
    wheeled bike, and, on a folder, they are vulnerable, difficult to keep in adjustment, and fairly
    bulky and heavy: so you won't find these on a Brompton (what you find instead on most
    Bromptons is gearing based around the reliable, compact and highly efficient 3-speed hub
    gears that have been perfected over many decades).

  2. #2
    Senior Member royalflash's Avatar
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    I am not really a derailleur advocate but I can give you 2 reasons;

    I believe that it can be often harder to take the wheel off the bike with hub gears- so if you get a flat it can cause complications and delay

    Also derailleurs are cheaper.
    only the dead have seen the end of mass motorized stupidity

    Plato

    (well if he was alive today he would have written it)

  3. #3
    Hauja
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    Advantages of deraileur equipped bicycles.Better gear range at a cheaper price than hub gears.When the cassette wears out simply replace it gearing is easily changed.Gearing is not so problematic on 20 inch wheeled folders as brompton claims.On 17 inch and smaller wheels it is problematic as they say.My boardwalk has a 30-94 inch gear range with a 7 speed freewheel.I consider that a good range.Maintenance on a freewheel is really not that bad just keep the chain ,freewheel and derailleur lubed with a good chain lube such as boeshield etc and clean the chain and cassette /freewheeel occasionally. Dahon has 3 and 5 speed internal hub bicycles available. It might occur to one that Brompton favors hub gears because their home market I.E England tends to be quite rainy at times.
    Last edited by James H Haury; 04-12-05 at 05:40 AM.

  4. #4
    Just riding andygates's Avatar
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    Yep, it's certainly messy here, though I suspect that Brompton favour hub gears because they give a smaller fold.

  5. #5
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    I have a 7 speed Halfway and like it. I would not buy it if it has hub gear.

    Deraileur systems are usually have better gear ratios, they are not difficult to maintain, hub gear are very difficult to maintain and near imposible for an average cyclist to remove/replace the real wheel to change tire. The Halfway real wheel could be remove by loosing just one nut! You could actually change the Halfway tires without removing the wheels. Deraileur gives better efficiency, and much lighter too.

    The reasons Brompton do not use deraileur is because of the small wheels. There are limit in the size of the big gear before the deraileur hit the road surface. Distance between bb and real hub in the Brompton is too short for proper deraileur operation.

    My Halfway folds very nice and does not seems to have any problem that need adjustment.

    I own two Raleigh 20 and and a 26" Raleigh 3 speed, I hate to fix the hub gears on those bikes. I just let them rusted in the Garage. I shall never buy a hub gear bicycle again.

  6. #6
    Senior Member cheg's Avatar
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    Lighter, cheaper to buy, more mechanical efficiency, easier to repair.

  7. #7
    Señor Mambo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruchai
    ...hub gear are very difficult to maintain and near imposible for an average cyclist to remove/replace the real wheel to change tire.
    "Average cyclists" should not have to go about maintaining hub gears. Yes, they do break down, need servicing, etc., but not to the extent which seems to be suggested.

    The changing tires remark is exaggerated: difficult for anyone who cannot turn a wrench, yes.

    Downsides:
    • Brompton rear wheels, despite what they say and think, are fairly heavy with their hub gears, thus making the bike quite heavy to lift and carry
    • Brompton also neglects to tell you to carry extra/specialized tools to service some aspects of these bikes in the field
    • Brompton's also have very wide ranging gear ratios because of that hub (however, I addressed this by changing the cranks and chainring)

    In fact, I'm waiting for my hub to wear out so that I can turn the bike into a single speed.


    The Halfway real wheel could be remove by loosing just one nut!
    That's because it has half of a fork and half of a chainstay.


    But that's a good reminder: if you want a bike that you don't have to buy exclusive parts for in order to maintain, you're probably better off with something like a Dahon or Bike Friday or whatever you can get in the Netherlands which uses readily available parts/spare parts.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by josr
    Hello,

    Why are there manufacturers who are bringing folders on the market with a derailleur system?

    What are the advantages?

    The Giant Halfway was at the top of the list for my first folder, but it's sinking now I think about the disadvantages of a derailleur system:

    * More maintainance than hub gears;
    * More dirty than hub gears;
    * More sensitive (to shocks, e.g. while (un)folding). So a lot of adjustment is needed.

    Can someone give me one reasson (or more) why to choose a folder with a derailleur system?
    Maybe a derailleur is a bit more efficient than a hub gears? But does it change that much?)

    Can derailleur advocates explain me what's arguments can be used against Brompton explanation:

    http://www.bromptonbicycle.co.uk/ind...ny.philosophy:

    Why, for instance, don't we use multi-geared derailleur systems, so popular at the moment?
    Answer, they do not (unless reliability is compromised) give satisfactory gearing on a small
    wheeled bike, and, on a folder, they are vulnerable, difficult to keep in adjustment, and fairly
    bulky and heavy: so you won't find these on a Brompton (what you find instead on most
    Bromptons is gearing based around the reliable, compact and highly efficient 3-speed hub
    gears that have been perfected over many decades).
    The Giant Halfway was at the top of the list for my first folder, but it's sinking now I think about the disadvantages of a derailleur system:

    * More maintainance than hub gears;
    * More dirty than hub gears;
    * More sensitive (to shocks, e.g. while (un)folding). So a lot of adjustment is needed.<<<<<<

    It's sad to hear the Halfway has sunk. This bike should have derailleur because a 20' inch wheel bicycle like this would certainly be at an advantage. A person buying the Halfway is not looking for the smallest possible folder and are really looking for a wider gear range.

    *More maintainance than hub gears;

    It's only more maintainance if you're going to ride the bike 365 days a year in mud, snow and rain. The Halfway's derailleur will probably outlast the bike if cared for properly

    * More dirty than hub gears

    It depends on how you carry the bike and how many times it's cleaned. I have a very dirty Dahon Piccolo so it's possible to have a dirty hub geared bike. In general, the bike is only as clean as the owner makes it. I agree the Brompton is a very clean bicycle but town bikes tend to get dirty very fast.

    * More sensitive (to shocks, e.g. while (un)folding). So a lot of adjustment is needed.<<<<<<

    Not true. Sturmey Archer AW-3 is very sensitive to road shock and the transmission will lose itself if the rear wheel hits large ruts at a fast speed. In fact, Brompton owners already know that when the bike is new, you have to be in a high gear (when getting ready to fold) or the cables will pull the transmission out of allignment. My Dahon Speed 8 never had a problem with adjustments after folding and unfolding. Never.

    >>>>Can someone give me one reasson (or more) why to choose a folder with a derailleur system?<<<

    1. Touring
    2. Commuting over 10 miles a day
    3. Hills
    4. Racing
    5. Weak knees

    >>>>>Maybe a derailleur is a bit more efficient than a hub gears? But does it change that much?)<<<<

    It does change and is significant.

    I like the Sturmey Archer AW-3 over the Shimano Nexus because the latter is very heavy. The Nexus 7 does not have a direct drive while the AW-3 feels comfortable in second gear because it has one efficient gear.

    I would never have my weekend ride with a hub gear because it feels like I have a water bottle attached to the rear wheel. My Bianchi Milano is hardly ever used anymore since I discovered the efficiency of a derailleur system. I find the derailleur system to be more free rolling and this makes all the difference in the world. Hub gears are a compromise and that is the only reason one would use it in the first place.

    >>>>>>Why, for instance, don't we use multi-geared derailleur systems, so popular at the moment?
    Answer, they do not (unless reliability is compromised) give satisfactory gearing on a small
    wheeled bike, and, on a folder, they are vulnerable, difficult to keep in adjustment, and fairly
    bulky and heavy:<<<<<<<

    This is only true if we are talking about the Brompton which is a 16' inch wheel folding bicycle. The Brompton is the ultimate 16' inch wheel folder and should have a hub gear. This is not true for a bicycle with 20' inch wheels or larger. A person buying a larger folder does not care about size and is looking for comfort, speed and efficiency.

  9. #9
    loaded, ready and peddlin
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    I understand the problem with a derailleur system on a 16" wheel due to ground clearance. And I know manufacturers spec 3 speed internal hubs for cost and weight. So why not spec the Sram p5, and an option for a Nexus 8 speed. We can do it by a custom build as long as I have the skill, time or money to get it going. Do we all think the demand is that limited?

    Before I fall off a plactic milk carton, I wonder how many Rohloff hubs need to be built to get the MSRP closer to $500 or so.

  10. #10
    Señor Mambo
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    Quote Originally Posted by khergert
    So why not spec the Sram p5, and an option for a Nexus 8 speed.
    Well for one, hub axle length is a limiting factor. From what you've posted, it's not clear to me whether you're aware of that or not.

    On my Brompton, my rear axle is ~110mm. Front hub is 74mm or 73mm. Try doing a size search for those. (On the other hand, my Bike Friday has a 135mm rear and 100mm front; very versatile.)


    We can do it by a custom build as long as I have the skill, time or money to get it going. Do we all think the demand is that limited?
    Are you a machinist or something? (Not interested in a rear hub, but am in a front hub.)


    Before I fall off a plactic milk carton, I wonder how many Rohloff hubs need to be built to get the MSRP closer to $500 or so.

  11. #11
    easy racer
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruchai
    The reasons Brompton do not use deraileur is because of the small wheels. There are limit in the size of the big gear before the deraileur hit the road surface. Distance between bb and real hub in the Brompton is too short for proper deraileur operation.
    I'd just thought i'd show this link, of a derailleur equipped Brompton:

    http://www.ikd21.co.jp/bro/sp/

    These are made by a English chap called Steven Parry.
    They are made by cutting the hubs down to size, rather than spreading the rear triangle.
    And look at the size of that front big ring!

  12. #12
    Hauja
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    Some of the Bromptons now use a rear derailluer in conjunction with 2 cogs and a sram or sturmey sunrace 3 speed hub for 6 ratios.The 2 speed Brompton uses only the rear derailluer with 2 cogs the lightest one weighs only 21 lbs with lots of titanium and a hefty price tag of 1250 lbs sterling. The ratios are 56 and 76 gear inches.
    Last edited by James H Haury; 05-09-05 at 06:03 PM.

  13. #13
    Banned. folder fanatic's Avatar
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    The only thing that comes to mind when I think of a derailleur equipped folding bike that generally is smaller wheeled is ick.

  14. #14
    Senior Member af895's Avatar
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    When I was building a list of possible folding bikes, it was 20" only. I never even considered anything other than a derailleur. Performance is fine and, most importantly to me, *standardization.* I can service every aspect of my bike or take it to any shop.

    It's not a matter of "if" your bike will need service, it's "when."

  15. #15
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    SA 3-speed hubs are tough as nails, the wheel is very easy to remove, parts are available world-wide, and with the right chain ring and cog sizing can be adapted to most cycling environments, e.g. hills or lack thereof. The Nexus 7 and 8 speed hubs are significantly heavier and it does take some effort to remove the wheel, esp if you get it with the hub brake. I opted for a Strida for my folder, just one speed, easy wheel removal, gearing is actually quite good for moderate hills, the airlines are never gonna bust the derailleur, and I think it's the lightest folder around.

  16. #16
    Karl Ulrich - Xootr LLC
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    I specified the components on the new Swift Folder (website). I evaluated the SRAM 3-speed (internal hub for the "Dual Drive"), Nexus 7-Speed, and SRAM 4.0 derailleur.

    We ended up going with the derailleur for these reasons:

    1. Effiiciency
    I did quite a lot of testing on this. The derailleur system with a clean chain registered 98 percent efficiency. The Nexus 7 registered 90 percent (the effiiciency varies by gear, but this is for Gear 3, one of the better gears). The dual drive is 98 percent efficient in Gear 2 ("direct drive"), but drops to about 94% in Gear 3, which is needed at top cruising speed, which is when you also want to have good efficiency.

    90 percent is *really bad* for a bike you expect to do any kind of fitness cycling with, or for a bike you commute on "competitively" (as I do with three of my colleagues). Frankly, the Nexus is pretty much a little "heater" on your rear hub. Of the 150-200 Watts you deliver to the bike under normal conditions, 15-20 Watts are heating up the hub.

    We didn't look at the SRAM 7 speed to seriously as it is really expensive. I expect it will have similarly poor efficiency (all of these set ups have multiple sets of gears meshing in them).

    2. Weight
    The internal hubs run 400-800 g heavier in terms of overall system weight than do the derailleur systems. On a folder, this can be a big deal. I found that pushing the bike down below 10 kg (22 lbs) made a real difference in terms of how readily I would pop it in the car or take it on a train.

    3. Cost
    The Nexus adds about $100 - $150 to the retail price of the bike.

    Having said all this, I did like the Dual Drive rear hub with a single cog on it. I set it up so that Gear 2 was about a 65 gear-inch ratio, which let me run in the "direct drive" mode for most urban riding. The problem is that when shifting to Gear 1 to grunt up a big hill or Gear 3 to race with the guys, I would lose another 5 percent of my power (not a good thing at my age). Many people are also not willing to live with only three gears, which I understand.

    I know this comes across as "bike geek" talk to a lot of people, and the internal hub stuff is probably fine for many low-intensity riders in urban settings. However, I felt there were too many compromises relative to the derailleur. Of course, this only works on a 406mm wheel (20in), as the really small wheels can't really be set up well with a derailleur.

    Incidentally, a new chain costs $6. So, I just swap chains and clean the derailleur 2-3 times a year, which keeps the system running really well in the most grungy of conditions.

    Best,

    Karl U.
    Xootr LLC

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulrich
    The internal hubs run 400-800 g heavier in terms of overall system weight than do the derailleur systems. On a folder, this can be a big deal. I found that pushing the bike down below 10 kg (22 lbs) made a real difference in terms of how readily I would pop it in the car or take it on a train.
    Another factor that Nexus 7/German speed hub advocates like to point out is how their heavy hub compares with a derailleur system. They like to point out that their hub is not much heavier in terms of overall weight. This comparison is completely wrong!

    A derailleur system puts most of the weight on the derailleur hanger and chain rings. In other words, a derailleur system distributes the weight onto the frame of the bicycle. Therefore, the weight is NOT in the center of the wheel where it slows down the bike dramatically.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
    In other words, a derailleur system distributes the weight onto the frame of the bicycle. Therefore, the weight is NOT in the center of the wheel where it slows down the bike dramatically.
    Really? I thought as long as the weight was centered, it doesn't create the rotational mass that is so deadly in heavy wheels. I think this difference is overblown and I have never read anything that indicated that a heavy hub is more detrimental to performance than a heavy frame (or frame attachment). perhaps other, wiser folks could enlighten us, but I don't think a pound on the hub is any worse than a pound on the frame.

  19. #19
    New usename ThorUSA brakemeister's Avatar
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    doesnt make a difference where the weight is "inside" : the wheel ..its all rotating mass even the hub itself, and it makes a huge difference everytime you accelrate.
    ( I get a kick out of crossdrilled brake rotors on import show cars, assumably because they are lighter, but than they add 18 inch wheels .... ooops)

    as for shops who can work or even repair internal hubs , much luck. Its a good thing they ( the internal hubs ) do not blow up more than they do, cause even in germany the mechanics who actually repair them are getting less and less.

    here in the US ... lol give me a break... maybe 50 shops. At the very most and it will cost you . In the time they are working on the hub, you can buy a new derrailleur ( or take any one which ANY shop has floating around ) for a substantial saving. Just try to get a spare part for a Sturmey archer internal hub here is a treat.

    Internal hubs have their place. But derraileur systems have a lot going for them as well. Its only good that somehow taste varies, so we can have an individual opinion about those things.
    And because we all like our bikes we should respect our fellow cyclist, no matter what they prefer

    Thor

  20. #20
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    Another advantage of deraillers, not mentioned here unless I overlooked someone's post, is the quick release mechanism that you don't have on solid axled wheels found with internal speed hub designs. If traveling and needing to disassemble your bike to fit in airline approved size parameters or when getting a flat tire, trying to put the internal wheel back on ain't fun and can be very time consuming to do it right. Try that in the rain at night.

  21. #21
    Folding bike junkie! Wavshrdr's Avatar
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    Time to chime in a on a few points that haven't been discussed to death yet. I think we can all agree that a derailleur in a perfect word is more efficient. However in the folding world things become more complicated. Out of the 15 bikes I currently have 10 are derailleurs or hybrid (like the dual drive setup) and 5 are hubs. Out of the 15, 3 are folders and they are all derailleurs and 2 of those are the SRAM DD setup.

    Now having said that the next 3 folders I am buying will be ordered with hubs (A Swift) or converted to hubs (Downtubes). My rationale is quite simple. I don't ride in the perfect climates of California or Florida any more. I like to ride sometimes in areas where there is not a bike trail but more of a cow path. As a result the low hanging derailleur is a magnet for all the freaking dirt and debris on the rode. I recently rode a bit in Denmark on some walking paths and I was constantly picking weeds out of the low hanging derailleur which is essential if you want a wide ratio gear set. Add a few twigs and a couple layers of dirt and the efficiency goes down. The higher chain of the internal hub bike doesn't get so much crap on it.

    In the cities of Berlin or Amsterdam where I ride when it is raining the front wheel just spews crap from the road all over the chain and rear tire. This further reduces my efficiency over time and I don't want to think about cleaning the chain every day.

    Another thing to think about is that the relative angle for the chain line between the sprockets is more severe when you have a shorter distance between the front chain ring and rear cassette. This again reduces efficiency. Now I tend to believe Karl’s stats on the relative efficiency of the gearing systems but I’d like to know what platform they were tested on; a folder or a normal bike?

    I just bought an 8spd Nexus (red label) and it definitely feels more efficient than my 7 spd Nexus. I don’t have many mile yet on it so it may be too early to tell but it feels better.

    Another plus for me in the trail riding is the fact that there is less stuff hanging out to get smacked. Dirt alone is an issue but I have snagged my derailleur a few times but this probably isn’t an issue on city streets.

    Yet another plus for me is that most internal hubs are slightly larger in diameter which allows for shorter spokes and thereby a stronger wheel. I am a big guy so this is definitely a consideration for me. Of course the downside is that the weight is slightly higher and there is a corresponding higher polar moment of inertia and greater rotational mass and greater unsprung weight and these are all somewhat detrimental to performance. But the same person who often complains about the weight will then drop on a tire that is 200 grams heavier than a light one and not even think about the consequences. Since I am not racing my folders this isn’t such a major concern for me.

    A derailleur is the hot setup especially if you are racing or want the ultimate in efficiency. The way I used my folders (except my tandem) the hubs have a lot of benefits and the Rohloff, newer SRAM and 8spd Nexus have better efficiency than what Karl may have seen with the 7spd Nexus. The other thing that I absolutely hate is that the rear derailleur must be cleaned every time I need to pack my bike back in its suitcase or it just smears grease and dirt everywhere. It is much dirtier to carry when I carry it on a metro folded as well as the lower derailleur collected all the muck.

    Both system have their places. But in the “commuting” world I like the internal hubs better. With the latest systems efficiency is better and they have pretty good gear ranges of 300% or greater and the new SRAM 9spd is over 340%! This is a pretty wide ratio. I also have been quite happy with the SRAM DD setup on my SpeedPro and Bike Friday. It is the best (and worst) of both worlds. I don’t need such a wide ratio rear cassette though because of the internal hub so the derailleur doesn’t need to be quite so low to the ground. I do get less muck on it that way. It still is close though.

    I agree with Thor that we should respect everyone regardless of type of gear system. I am open to all systems but you must decide what is best for your purpose. For racing I’d go derailleur for sure and that is what I have on my race bike already. For easy portability, great in bad weather, keep my pants clean commuter bike I love the internal hubs. On my touring bikes I like the SRAM DD setup. Who says you can’t have your cake and eat it too? Just buy more bikes!

  22. #22
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    <I wonder how many Rohloff hubs need to be built to get the MSRP closer to $500 or so.

    I doubt this will ever happen. There is already an opportunity to license to manufacturers who could do just that: turn out the product at a lower price point. I suspect that Rohloff is satisfied with their present strategy, building a premium component for high-end OEM and custom building applications. Their product is at the high end of almost every line of manufacturers of folding bicycles and of the exotic downhill bike builders like Nicolai. Why would they want to ruin that?

  23. #23
    Senior Member af895's Avatar
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    Wavshrdr,

    To add to your points, I have a KHS with a derailler and 8-speed cassette on 20-inch (406mm) wheels. (Brompton, BTW, is a 349mm wheel)

    I measured the wheelbase of this bike and came up with 38 inches. My father has a full size road bike with a wheelbase of about 40 inches. Food for thought on the topic of distance between rear sprockets and front chainrings - the folder isn't much smaller than a full size bike.

    I can't disagree with you on the "hanging down" part. My derailler, a long-cage Deore to accomodate an 11-34 cassette and double front rings, is at best 3 inches from the ground when in the 34T cog. I stick to roads so this hasn't been a problem to date but I can see where you're coming from. On something like the Brompton, the smaller wheel diameter would put my derailleur in contact with the ground.

    I've had some recent experience at a bike co-operative restoring bikes that have internally geared hubs. I'm feeling a lot more comfortable with them though I stand by the assertion that service would have to be DIY - nobody carries parts for them in Canada let alone knows how to service them.

    Interesting trade-off - a hub that likely won't break down (the co-op has 45 year old hubs in perfect working order) but would be problematic if it did versus a derailler with a lot more "hanging out" and exposed but in the event of a failure, would be easily serviced anywhere.

    Eeeny, meenie, miney, mo...
    Last edited by af895; 12-04-05 at 09:44 AM.

  24. #24
    Folding bike junkie! Wavshrdr's Avatar
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    af895,

    Obviously the shorter you can make the swingarm the stronger it can be and get better energy transmission. So on my race bike the rear tire barely clears the seat post tube and they minized that distance as much as possible but still the tire and rim is much larger diameter so it will never be as close as a 20" wheel.

    I don't hate derailleurs and see where they are useful and I do like them for many things. However after my last trip through Germany and Denmark on my Dahon I was cussing the thing as I set there picking weeds out. I could also see bits of sand that had been thrown up on it while riding along some of the coastal areas. Sand will quickly destroy gears, chains, sprockets and dearailleurs. When I got home I must have cleaned at least a teaspoon of sand out of it. That might not seem like much but for a small area it was a huge amount.

    I think on the biggest cog on my Dahon, the lowest wheel sets maybe 2" or less from the ground. I just went and measured it and it is 5.1 cm (~2.1 inches) from the ground and that is with a big fat set of Schwalbe Big Apples on it which have taller sidewalls than the original Ritchie Rov'rs. It is pretty obvious why it is an issue for me when it is that low. I was thinking it was closer to 3" but after measuring it I was shocked. I have had to straighten it a few time from being knocked about but nothing major...yet!

    I agree that derailleurs are easily serviced but then of course they require more service so they better. I have yet to wear out an internal hub so maybe I'm just lucky or I don't ride enough. On a typical day though I ride about 10-15 miles and most of the mile are on my folders. Weekends I'll put the miles on my race bike but even then that might be 30-40 each day and it is Campy equipped.

    I personally would love to see a Rohloff at a lower price point someday. I have been agonizing over springing for one or not. Really the last thing stopping me is that I'd hate to have the bike stolen with it and it would be a prime target for thieves. I can't always take the bike any with me and I always keep 2 locks on it when I am in Berlin. Even then people have tried to cut the pole (rather than the locks) that my bike was attached to. Damn near succeded one time. If they say it had a Rohloff I am sure the effort devoted to trying to steal it would go up.

    I want something I can use like an appliance sometimes without a lot of maintenance. Sort of like driving a Honda, put gas in it and change the oil and it goes. Everytime I pack my bike in the suitcase I have to take off the derailleur so it will fit. Then I spend quite a few minuted fiddling with it at my destination to make it work properly again. Even though I have tried to scribe marks where everything needs to go it is just off enough to annoy me. My hub gears never seem to have this issue or not to the extent as my derailleurs. I also like the fact that gear changes are usually more positive on the hub gears than most of the lower end derailleur crap that gets put on folding bikes. I also like the fact that I can shift up or down a gear while stopped.

    To each their own but for a while I'll keep both but for commuting the internal hub wins hands down for me.

  25. #25
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
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    Great thread.
    I think the tire repair issue is overrated in considering hub vs Der.
    As a commuter I get flats regularly and never remove the whole wheel
    to fix the tube.

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