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Old 03-02-15, 02:46 PM   #26
bendembroski
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Originally Posted by HGR3inOK View Post
Helix promoter Peter Boutakis has posted a response to some comments/questions about the Helix at:

Helix bike is claimed to fold smaller than any other

-HANK RYAN-
Norman, Oklahoma USA
I thought it funny that the comments there were: "Why is it so expensive?" , and here they are: "Why is so inexpensive?"

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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Math fans is 24 bigger than 16? a bike really cannot fold smaller than It's wheels but the mention of Titanium is getting the saliva flowing, obviously..
I'd be happy enough if it was steel...
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Old 03-02-15, 02:50 PM   #27
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Im fine with my steel folding bikes .. Will they be entirely Made in Canada or will the Chinese contract parts come in and be assembled in Canada..

Both can claim to be 'Made in Canada'..
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Old 03-02-15, 03:07 PM   #28
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Math fans is 24 bigger than 16? a bike really cannot fold smaller than It's wheels but the mention of Titanium is getting the saliva flowing, obviously..
There is the whole 24" wheels on bicycles does not mean that the particular wheels are actually 24" in diameter. Bicycle wheel standards seem to be quantum in nature. If the 16 refers to the Brompton, then the dimensions of the entire bike needs to be considered, as that is what they are comparing it to. My car had two wheel sizes available, and the larger wheels did not make the car bigger.

I will follow the Matrix's development with great interest.

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Old 03-02-15, 03:17 PM   #29
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Stroll into you nearest LBS and see how many are completely made, components and all, in the country where their corporate headquarters are located, including the high enders.

Steel, Ti, CF, if it's appropriate for the use other considerations are primarily esthetic, and the choice becomes subjective.
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Old 03-02-15, 03:23 PM   #30
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507 ETRO was in the Promotional , I didn't make it Up but just quoted what was written by the Promoter ..

349 and 305 are both 16. 451 & 406 are both 20" its all about smaller rim fatter tire Vs larger rim and skinnier tire combined

both , can have the nominally similar Outside diameter ..

Same sort of deal as French 700 A,B & C , 650 A,B & C, tires thinner rims bigger nominal diameter remains the same..


China doing the Argon rich Low oxygen tig welding is something they already do.
most builders charge the tubes then Flood the tig welder bead with inert gas
and continue blowing Argon or other inert gasses till your bead cools

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Old 03-02-15, 04:18 PM   #31
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Ahhhh i remembered that "impossible" one and apparently it is cancelled. They found out it was impossible for the super cheap price point that they where trying to sell it for. Carbon Fiber and electric motor super foldable escooter for $500 was pretty much impossible from all the discussion we had around here, they stated that it was 3x more expensive in the end! hahah they really needed a business student on the team and they admitted it! And now this team is offering a full titanium bike for $1500 is super cheap considering Ti frames alone are around that price! Just the bromption front and rear triangle is over $900 USD, how are these guys going to give you a full bike? Even our Famous Ti swift was not cheap so that was a good gauge for a custom built bike gram.
A batch of 6 Ti Swift frames are being built as we speak, are going at approx. $1500 give or take each, and that includes the majority of the frame parts - main frame, fork, seatpost, stem riser, handlebars, headset. But still needed for a complete bike are the wheels, drivetrain, controls, saddle. Obviously one could use a non-Ti stem riser, handlebar and maybe seatpost. But that isn't going to knock a great deal off that $1500, perhaps 200. And this is manufactured by a company that does a large number of frames, in China where the labour rates are substantially lower than Canada.

I hope he pulls it off, but it is going to be a massive struggle and he probably won't get rich unfortunately. Hopefully he can earn his daily bread at least. The June delivery also looks unrealistic. Not much time left for sleeping...

The Helix frame also has expensive-looking pivots and locks, titanium presumably, which will be real hard to machine and be quite costly.
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Old 03-02-15, 04:34 PM   #32
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A batch of 6 Ti Swift frames are being built as we speak, are going at approx. $1500 give or take each, and that includes the majority of the frame parts - main frame, fork, seatpost, stem riser, handlebars, headset. But still needed for a complete bike are the wheels, drivetrain, controls, saddle. Obviously one could use a non-Ti stem riser, handlebar and maybe seatpost. But that isn't going to knock a great deal off that $1500, perhaps 200. And this is manufactured by a company that does a large number of frames, in China where the labour rates are substantially lower than Canada.

I hope he pulls it off, but it is going to be a massive struggle and he probably won't get rich unfortunately. Hopefully he can earn his daily bread at least. The June delivery also looks unrealistic. Not much time left for sleeping...

The Helix frame also has expensive-looking pivots and locks, titanium presumably, which will be real hard to machine and be quite costly.
^^ This. However, if he manufactured a similar design in steel I bet it could be just as interesting, at the same price point. (provided it had decent components)
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Old 03-02-15, 06:28 PM   #33
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I personally dislike the front fork,...looks strange and unstable. Most likely stability/flex wont be an issue,...but I'd always be worrying.
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Old 03-03-15, 09:43 AM   #34
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I thought it funny that the comments there were: "Why is it so expensive?" , and here they are: "Why is so inexpensive?"

I'd be happy enough if it was steel...
I thought it was a laugh too for people complaining about the price of a Titanium bike. They definitely never owned a bike outside of a purchase from walmart. Going to a real bike store would probably open their eyes on the price range of bikes! I just have to shake my head the one that commented that you just added some hinges which shouldn't be that expensive doesn't realize the huge complexity for designing and having a good working folder. Heck Brompton has been refining their frame for like 30 years bit by bit and Dahon is still searching and trying for new ways to fold. Looks like nothing from an outsiders point of view but from the inside it's VERY busy!
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Old 03-03-15, 04:23 PM   #35
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I thought it was a laugh too for people complaining about the price of a Titanium bike. They definitely never owned a bike outside of a purchase from walmart. Going to a real bike store would probably open their eyes on the price range of bikes! I just have to shake my head the one that commented that you just added some hinges which shouldn't be that expensive doesn't realize the huge complexity for designing and having a good working folder. Heck Brompton has been refining their frame for like 30 years bit by bit and Dahon is still searching and trying for new ways to fold. Looks like nothing from an outsiders point of view but from the inside it's VERY busy!
The folding bike market is much tougher than the MTB and roadie market. Seasoned riders don't flinch when buying a good MTB or roadie at $2000+, but for folding bikes, there is the perception that since the wheels are small, they are little more than kids toys so should therefore cost as much as kid's toys. And the problem is that in general even seasoned MTB/roadie riders ALSO regards folders as toys, so you are left with a really tiny market segment who appreciate folding bike prices.
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Old 03-03-15, 09:24 PM   #36
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if somebody can sell that bike for under 2 grand he got something ..... put decent components on it, good wheels and it might sell...
every penny under that somebody is cutting corners or its plain impossible

he will loose his big promises pretty quickly when reality sets in
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Old 03-03-15, 10:11 PM   #37
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I'm no math genius, but comfortable enough with numbers to become an engineer. I don't get it - when I see this:

"Pivoting on helical hinges, the two 24-inch wheels fold in against either side of the one-piece main frame and sit between the cranks. Once the handlebars have also been folded down, the seat lowered and the pedals flipped in, the end result is a package that measures 23 × 25 × 9 inches (584 x 635 x 229 mm). It's only slightly wider than the crankset, and not much bigger than the wheels."

I wonder how a 24" wheel can fit within a 23" x 25" area - never mind that the picture of the folded bike shows it extending beyond the bicycle rim in both horizontal and vertical dimensions.

As for it folding smaller than any other bicycle, perhaps Mr. B should edit that to read "I t folds smaller than any other bicycle that Mr. B is aware of.
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Old 03-03-15, 11:49 PM   #38
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Just realized this, and feel free to correct me: this bike has been in development for three years-- but it has no rear brake; there is no cable connected to the derailleur; and the rear triangle doesn't lock to the frame when riding. The FAQ contains a few campaign promises that the bike will have a rear brake and frame latch, though. And the "team" currently consists of Peter Boutakis. Oh, and there is no mention of a warranty.

I hope the Kickstarter video shows a completed bike ready for the consumer.
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Old 03-04-15, 07:26 AM   #39
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Just realized this, and feel free to correct me: this bike has been in development for three years-- but it has no rear brake; there is no cable connected to the derailleur; and the rear triangle doesn't lock to the frame when riding. The FAQ contains a few campaign promises that the bike will have a rear brake and frame latch, though. And the "team" currently consists of Peter Boutakis. Oh, and there is no mention of a warranty.

I hope the Kickstarter video shows a completed bike ready for the consumer.
I think the 3 years in development is more marketing hyperbole. It doesn't mean 3 years of full time development.

If I had to guess (and I do), the missing rear brake and derailleur cable are probably down to him still working on cable routing.
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Old 03-04-15, 09:31 AM   #40
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I think the 3 years in development is more marketing hyperbole. It doesn't mean 3 years of full time development.

If I had to guess (and I do), the missing rear brake and derailleur cable are probably down to him still working on cable routing.
well than there is that Brompton Killer Titanium thing in Eugene Oregon, which got stolen a couple years back and the "inventor" claimed that it had 20 years development on it, valued it beyond good and evil, gladly he got it back... but still no idea if that bike will ever go to market...

So let me think, if I ever develop a folding bike... can I say the development is 5 years , as I am thinking about some stuff since 5 years ...lol

all the best to our Canadians friend up north, I wish him all the very best. But without a dealer support environment, selling them direct one at a time, without insurance, without warranty, without...... all that hyperbole will fizzle in no time ...

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Old 03-04-15, 09:34 AM   #41
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How could he be so excited to announce this unfinished bike? Perhaps it would work better as a fixed gear with front brake. It's a very intriguing design, and I hope the technical issues are resolved, and this comes to market.

I'm also curious about the titanium. I've read that Asian titanium has a shorter fatigue life than U.S. titanium. Is that true or just marketing hype? I would think titanium is titanium no matter where it came from. After my Strida broke, I've become more interested in metal fatigue.

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Old 03-04-15, 10:06 AM   #42
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Last I heard, the Ultimate Folding Bicycle from Eugene was selling the prototype. He decided to focus on developing his trailer project. I'd rather have Steve Parry build me a titanium "Brompton" than anyone else. I contacted the guy in Oregon once. He told me his clients pay between $7,000-$10,000 for his bikes, but when they were selling the prototype he admitted it was the only one ever made.
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Old 03-04-15, 10:13 AM   #43
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How could he be so excited to announce this unfinished bike?
I suspect the early announcement is a method to 'put the feelers out' and see what the overall interest is before he proceeds with the next step. It's a common methodology in software development (release early, release improvements often)-- which he apparently is well versed in.

I'm not taking too much notice of design details right now -- I'm happy to wait for the Kickstarter and see what he comes up with. << Same with warranty, insurance, blah blah blah...

I'm more curious to see how his communication works out with potential backers. This will be a pretty good indication of how he will approach customer service.

To that end, I have yet to get a reply from him.
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Old 03-04-15, 10:28 AM   #44
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How could he be so excited to announce this unfinished bike? Perhaps it would work better as a fixed gear with front brake. It's a very intriguing design, and I hope the technical issues are resolved, and this comes to market.

I'm also curious about the titanium. I've read that Asian titanium has a shorter fatigue life than U.S. titanium. Is that true or just marketing hype? I would think titanium is titanium no matter where it came from. After my Strida broke, I've become more interested in metal fatigue.
That is nothing but marketing hype. Titanium should be just titanium or probably certain blends which i'm not sure of, just like aluminum they usually use 7005 or 6061, it's a alloy they mix. if they are saying that their's better then they probably comparing the asian titanium blend that was mixed with another alloy to cut some costs while their's is a higher percentage of titanium in the us one. But there should be pretty much a standard out there. 7005 aluminum should be the same in the asian markets and the north american markets.

someone that knows more about titanium should chime in cause i've only read about the aluminum stuff.
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Old 03-04-15, 10:34 AM   #45
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To that end, I have yet to get a reply from him.[/QUOTE]

That's unfortunate. He responded within 24 hours to my first email, and within 48 hours to the second. His inbox must have thousands of unread messages now.
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Old 03-04-15, 01:00 PM   #46
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Heres some information I found regarding Asian titanium Tomorrow Is Already Yesterday ? No time for the present. that may be fun to read. Short answer: U.S titanium has better fatigue strength, but Asian titanium improves each year.

I hope this Helix includes a warranty. When my first Strida broke it was covered by a lifetime warranty, but now they offer five years. Mine broke six years after purchase.
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Old 03-04-15, 01:08 PM   #47
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arriving late to the party, my initial thoughts were similar to other posters here. i noticed that Peter Boutakis responded to comments on the gizmag article. he addressed the folded dimensions claims and some ignorant comments about the price (some seem to think the price is too high.)
difficult to say how this will pan out but, best of luck to him:

"Thanks to gizmag for the excellent article, and thanks to the readers for your comments!

I wanted to respond to a few of the points that were brought up:

"So where does a 24" tire fit inside a 23" space?"
Good question. Bicycle industry wheel sizes are mostly inaccurate. This is because many different tires sizes can fit on the same rim. In our case we are using a 1.5" wide tire on a 20" dia rim (bead seat diameter), which brings the overall diameter to about 23". If we used a bigger tire, such as a 2.25", the diameter would increase. To try and keep it simple, the bike industry calls it a 24" wheel. Regardless, you may notice that the seat is still slightly higher than the wheels, this will be the same height for production making the height 23" as claimed. Source: Tire Sizing Systems
About the slot on the fork and steerer tube:
The fork and steerer are of adequate thickness and the slots are not at high stress points. We've done extensive simulation and real world testing and have confirmed it is strong and safe.
About the weight:
Our claim of 21lbs is total bicycle weight including pedals. It is common for bicycle companies to post weights without pedals, which may or may not be the case here. Without an actual hands-on review of either bike, the numbers are just manufacturers claims. Even so, the author brings up a valid point and we hope to make good on our claim for production!
About the price:
Folding bikes are generally more expensive because of the hinges and locks. Helix will be made out of titanium, which is significantly more expensive than steel, aluminum and carbon. With that said, it is still very competitively priced in comparison to other titanium bikes, folding or not.
About world's smallest claim:
Based on the numbers provided for the Brompton (585mm x 545mm x 270mm or 23" x 21.5" x 10.6"), the total volume would be 5241.7”. Helix is 5175”. The main differentiator being the width measurement, helix is slightly thinner, this makes it easy to get through doors and other tight paces where height is less of an issue.
About rigidity:
Rigidity will be one of our biggest selling points. Helix uses a patent pending tube-in-tube locking device that is very rigid.
About accessories:
Helix will have mounts for mud guards, racks, lights and more. There will be a unique carrying option as well, but it will be available after our first production run. Stay tuned!
Peter Boutakis"

incidentally, the helix reminds me of the Mikuláš Novotný design that was discussed here last year:



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Old 03-04-15, 03:41 PM   #48
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I've heard back from Peter via Twitter. It seems he's having trouble signing up and replying to posts here. Says he's messaged site admin a few days ago. Any thoughts on how to help him out?
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Old 03-04-15, 05:24 PM   #49
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I have bumped this into the Mod/Admin cue for further investigation.
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Old 03-04-15, 05:26 PM   #50
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I have bumped this into the Mod/Admin cue for further investigation.
Thanks on behalf of Peter.
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